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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lao Tzu on November 17, 2010, at 12:05:13
Through much experimentation, I have discovered some things about finding the right dosage of B12 that fits the individual because everyone responds to different dosages. Some require very high dosages. Others require much less for staving off depression. Initially, when I started dosing with B12, I noticed that it significantly helped my depression. It was really a wonder for me. I started off with 250mcg and gradually raised it to 750mcg, which I was happy with. I stayed at 750mcg per day for several months. After that period, I noticed that I didn't need so much for maintenance. So I experimented with lower dosages, specifically, 250mcg and 500mcg. 250mcg worked for a while, but I noticed it wasn't enough, so I tried using 500mcg. I didn't get as pleasant a feeling from 500mcg as I did from 750mcg. Now, I have been trying 375mcg per day and find that it is a perfect dosage for me. I read an article about B12 dosage in elderly people, and they used 375mcg per day for depression. Lo and behold, that same dosage works for me. I recently bought Schiff brand of B12 with 250mcg tablets. They are scored so you can cut them in half easily with a pill cutter. I take 1 and a 1/2 tablets in the morning, and I do feel much better. What I am trying to express is that the correct dosage means a lot. Too little and no relief, too much and you feel something isn't right. Initially, starting out with B12 supplementation may require higher dosages, maybe even B12 shots from your doctor, but in time, you may find that a lower maintenance dosage is all you require. I suggest trying out different dosages, such as 250mcg, 375mcg, 500mcg, 750mcg, and 1000mcg or more. I think eventually, you'll discover the correct dosage that works for you.
Lao
Posted by Tomatheus on November 17, 2010, at 13:24:45
In reply to Finding the correct dosage of B12, posted by Lao Tzu on November 17, 2010, at 12:05:13
Lao,
Do you know which type of vitamin B12 you take? Is it cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin, or another type? I've read that methylcobalamin is considered to be the active form of B12 and that it's better absorbed than cyanocobalamin. However, I don't think that that necessarily means that nobody will respond to the cyanocobalamin type of B12. I've heard of people noticing antidepressant benefits from the B12 patch, which uses the cyanocobalamin type of the vitamin, so I was just curious as to what type of B12 you've been taking.
Tomatheus
P.S. I'm glad to hear that you found the dose of vitamin B12 that works best for you. It's always good to hear of people having success using supplements to treat their depressive symptoms.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 21, 2010, at 10:43:34
In reply to Finding the correct dosage of B12, posted by Lao Tzu on November 17, 2010, at 12:05:13
Hi Lao Tzu I'm glad you brought up b-12 dosages. I picked up a sublingual B-12 about a month ago because I was needing a little more energy...it is 2000 mcg's...after I took it, it just didn't feel right, and I felt sick to my stomach. I took it a few more times just to be sure, and the same thing happened so have discontinued use of it. My female family has a history of doing well on high doses of B-6 and I thought that would also correspond with b-12...you have made me re-think the doseage. Thanks!
Are you still using the Chinese Herbal formulations? If so, which ones?
Posted by Lao Tzu on November 21, 2010, at 14:32:31
In reply to Re: Finding the correct dosage of B12, posted by Tomatheus on November 17, 2010, at 13:24:45
I use standard cyanocobalamin because it works fine for me, and I can adjust the dosage with 250mcg tablets to what I like. I've never tried the methyl- form so I don't know much about its absorption rate. I use Schiff brand. Like I said before, some people need very high doses of B12 at least in the beginning to address a B12 deficiency or anemia. I found this to be true when I first began B12 treatment. Later, after the deficiency had cleared, I lowered the dosage and everything has been fine. I have to note also that I take PPIs for GERD symptoms, and it is said these medications may result in reduced B12 absorption from diet, so that's also why I take the supplements in addition to my depression. It's strange, but I've noticed year after year that my B12 requirement is higher in the Winter than the Summer. In the Summer, I can get away with not taking it, but in the late fall I have to resume taking it until the Spring. Go figure!!
Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on November 21, 2010, at 14:45:50
In reply to Re: Finding the correct dosage of B12 » Lao Tzu, posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 21, 2010, at 10:43:34
Yes, I believe dosage is very important. My suggestion is to try first, 250mcg, then 375mcg, 500mcg, 750mcg, and finally 1,000mcg or more. Start low and increase to what you can tolerate. Maybe it's just me, but I am particularly sensitive to the dosage. Maybe some people are not and can take a lot of it without a problem. Initially, for the first few months, I was doing well on 750mcg per day. Later, I couldn't tolerate that dosage, so I dropped it lower. I thought 250mcg was enough, and it seemed so for a while, but then I noticed my depression coming back, so I raised it to 500mcg per day. I didn't feel quite right on that dosage, so now this year I dared to try just a little less than 500mcg, i.e. 375mcg per day. So far it is working for me, no side effects and the depression is improved. I seem to need it everyday now as I am dependent on it. That will change in the Spring when I go off the B12 until the fall season. I just don't seem to need it in the Spring/Summer part of the year.
In answer to your question, I stopped taking the Chinese herbals except for cinnamon and ginger for my stomach. I really didn't think they were doing that much for me in the way of depression, but I think maybe I was not taking the correct formulas for depression. There are specific Chinese formulas for brain health, which I have not tried yet. I seem to be disenchanted with the whole herbal scene. I never received much benefit, except for just a few different herbs over the years. I think when you're on as much medication as I am, herbs just get in the way if they are psychoactive and may interact with the medicine. I've found that before medication, I did okay on a couple of herbs, St. John's Wort and Kava Kava, but these shouldn't be taken with meds. I think??? Maybe or maybe not.
Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on November 21, 2010, at 14:55:03
In reply to Re: Finding the correct dosage of B12 » Lao Tzu, posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 21, 2010, at 10:43:34
I also do well on B6, but only about 100mg per day. In instances where anxiety is high such as social occasions, I'll take 200mg before the event, and this high dosage really does help my anxiety. However, I noticed that if I continue taking a real high dosage everyday, more than 100mg, I start feeling overstimulated, and I know it's the B6. I guess it's a side effect from taking too much, and I'm amazed that anyone can take 250mg or more of B6 per day. 250mg per day is recommended by some for schizophrenia, and I wish it would work for me because I like B6, but this high dosage just doesn't work for me. I also take 25mg of P5P everyday, which is essential if you're not converting the B6 into its coenzyme form, but I think for most people, regular pyridoxine probably works fine. Do your family members also use zinc, because in some people the depression is caused by a double deficit of zinc and B6, pyroluria to be exact. They tend to excrete them more readily than normals.
Thanks for your posts.
Lao
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 21, 2010, at 17:24:44
In reply to Re: Finding the correct dosage of B12, posted by Lao Tzu on November 21, 2010, at 14:55:03
Your dosage observations were interesting to me because, I basically felt that with the water-soluable vitamins if you took more than your body needed, they would just go out with the urine and not really effect anything except the pocketbook if you were wasting more than you needed. But I guess the body has to work a little harder to get rid of the waste wich takes up more energy than I may realize??? dunno, something to ponder.
hmmm...now, the zinc and P5P is definitely something to think about! I have not tried either before. But I am guessing if it helps the body to assimilate the B-6 better, that I may not need to take so much B-6 in the first place , or will get added benefit from the b-6. I'll try it and let you know! Though have to say...my pill box is getting quite full and I am starting to feel less inspired taking so many at a time.
Also thought I'd mention that the Lithium Orotate is working incredibly well for the anxiety that I was having which seemed to cycle me back into depression. I didn't quite realize how much the anxiety was effecting me until one day I woke up without it! go figure! That said though, I am definitely affected by seasonal depression. Picked up a homeopathic dropper formula for Mood/Blues from the local co-op grocery store (or can get it online www.newtonlabs.net) I was very skeptical, but decided to give it a go. Started loading doses of 6 drops every 15 min for 3-4 hours...wow! It was either a really good placebo effect, or it truly does work...I am tending to believe that it is doing something because I can actually feel the fog lift out of my brain...so weird/hard to describe. Then I feel much more comfortable in my skin and social with a little pep in my step. lol we'll see how long that lasts ;o)
I am wanting to try the Chinese herbal formula that Hombre uses...and I just keep having this nagging feeling that I need to do a liver clense or take a liver support supplement. Prob should take something for kidneys too since they can be affected by lithium (even if it is much less of an issue when using the orotate formula)
Posted by Lao Tzu on November 23, 2010, at 15:15:18
In reply to Re: Finding the correct dosage of B12, posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 21, 2010, at 17:24:44
You know, I keep ruminating on whether to try lithium orotate. I figured that if my psychiatrist didn't feel the need to prescribe it to me, then I probably wouldn't need it anyway. I'm already on a mood stabilizer in fact, but I do suffer from social anxiety related to the schizophrenia. I do believe that lithium probably wouldn't address that problem, or he'd have given it to me long ago. The only thing that helps much with my social anxiety is Ativan or Xanax, which he won't give me. So I try and do my best to deal with it.
I hope the Chinese herbals help you if you decide to try them. Perhaps, I didn't give it a long enough trial. I've never been crazy about herbals anyway. They tend to affect a lot of systems all at once. They're not specific enough for me. I tend to do better on medication and vitamins. I did, however, really like Kava Kava before I went on medication. I felt like it really, really helped me deal with my anxiety, not as good as Ativan, but for a natural substance, very good I would say if you dose correctly.Lao
Posted by 49er on December 26, 2010, at 6:19:52
In reply to Finding the correct dosage of B12, posted by Lao Tzu on November 17, 2010, at 12:05:13
Hi Lao,
Thank you for this post. Very helpful.
By any chance, do you know of brands like the Schiff Brand that come in the Methyl-B form which I think is superior to the Cyanocobalamin form? In other words, I need a pill in the same amount that I could easily cut.
Recently, I discovered that this helps greatly with my brain fog and concentration. Since I had some 1000mcg of the Jarrow pills, I crushed one and split it up as evenly as possible into 10 empty gel caps. I take two a day in addition to my multi which has about 200mcg of B-12.
But I am not sure I am getting an even amount and my digital scale quit working once I went off of psych meds and was no longer using it to weigh my drugs.
Thanks!
49er
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 21, 2011, at 19:37:35
In reply to Re: Finding the correct dosage of B12 » Lao Tzu, posted by 49er on December 26, 2010, at 6:19:52
Hello. I don't know of Schiff making a Methyl-B12, just the cyanocobalamin form. It's actually hard to find B12 in 250mcg tablets that are easy to cut in half. I have two scientific scales I bought years ago that I thought I might need to weigh vitamins, but I don't really use them. I guess we think alike.
Lao
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