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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 15:56:57
I have been seriously depressed for over 20 years - most of that time treated successfully with a combination of antidepressants. You can read my post on the medication board about my history and what brought me to quit the meds and try doing without...
Anyway, the internist who supervised my AD withdrawal suggested I try Neurofeedback, so yesterday I did. Part of me thinks this is quakery, but part of me wants to try anything because I'm suffering so much.
So - before the treatment I was feeling very depressed. Having to pry myself out of bed, trouble accomplishing the smallest task, feeling like a lazy loser, and crying at the drop of a hat.
I went to the office - she's a naturopath - and got hooked up to wires. One wire on each side of the top of my head, one on the top of each ear, and one on each earlobe, for a total of six wires. Then I stared at a computer screen with some psychedelic images for 15 seconds with my eyes open, then I closed my eyes for 15 seconds. This was to get a baseline scan. The therapist (I hesitate to call her a dr but I guess she is) showed me the chart and some graphs, explaining which were the alpha, beta, etc. waves and blah, blah, blah.
The actual treatment consisted of me listening to music through headphones and watching the images on the screen. If you want to know what is supposed to happen during this treatment just google it. What I want to relate is my experience. While I was listening to the music, I would also hear little clicks and static.
The first treatment lasted 30 minutes. It was very peaceful and relaxing. Subsequent treatments will take 1 hour.
Now here is the result - whether wishful thinking or placebo only time will tell. I felt completely BETTER after the treatment. I no longer felt like crying, and I felt pretty normal. I went home and fixed a nice dinner for the Mr. and even cleaned up the kitchen afterward. And still no crying. Now some might think that is no big deal, but for me it WAS!
This morning I took a shower, brushed my teeth, and got dressed before 10AM - another big deal. I am now going to make a shopping list and go to the grocery store.
Here is the score card:
100 points = Feeling wonderful, energetic, motivated, productive, and happy
0 points = Leaping off a bridge
Before the treatment I was feeling a score of about 15-20.
Immediately after the treatment I was feeling a score of about 60-70.
And right now about 22 hours after treatment I am feeling a score of about 50.
I will keep you posted if you're interested...
Thanks for being here.
Posted by chujoe on May 5, 2010, at 17:00:26
In reply to My Neurofeedback Experience, posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 15:56:57
That's great! I'm really interested in hering your continuing reports.
Posted by janejane on May 5, 2010, at 17:18:00
In reply to My Neurofeedback Experience, posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 15:56:57
Congratulations on finding something that works for you. Please do keep us updated.
I have a few questions... How frequent are the sessions, and how much does it cost? Is it something that would be ongoing or do you stop after a while? If you don't mind me asking, I'm also curious to know what your naturopath charges. I've though of seeing one, but am afraid I won't be able to afford it. Thanks so much for sharing this with us!
Posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 17:44:55
In reply to Re: My Neurofeedback Experience » StillHopefull, posted by janejane on May 5, 2010, at 17:18:00
> Congratulations on finding something that works for you. Please do keep us updated.
Thanks for the congratulations, but I'm not ready to get excited yet. My positive response could very well be a placebo effect.
> I have a few questions... How frequent are the sessions,The therapist recommends twice a week minimum but said that I could come as often as I wanted...
>and how much does it cost?
Gee - I didn't even ask how much it cost. That wasn't very smart. My insurance is going to be billed. I better call the office and find out the cost. When I find out I will post it.
>Is it something that would be ongoing or do you stop after a while?
The therapist said that once my brain is "re-trained" I won't have to come anymore. She can tell by the brain waves how much progress is being made. This is the part that sounds like quakery to me. Can she really tell if my depression is improved from the brain wave?
>If you don't mind me asking, I'm also curious to know what your naturopath charges. I've though of seeing one, but am afraid I won't be able to afford it. Thanks so much for sharing this with us!
Again, I didn't even ask how much she charges but when I find out I will post it.
Thanks for your interest.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 6, 2010, at 14:14:45
In reply to Re: My Neurofeedback Experience, posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 17:44:55
It has been almost 48 hours since my first Neurofeedback treatment.
I still don't feel like crying. I also don't feel like getting out of my pajamas... ;-D
Based on the scoring method described in my earlier post:
100 points = Feeling wonderful, energetic, motivated, productive, and happy
0 points = Leaping off a bridge
Before the treatment I was feeling a score of about 15-20.
Immediately after the treatment - I was feeling a score of about 60-70.
22 hours after treatment - a score of about 50.
Approximately 48 hours after treatment - a score of about 40. Not as good as yesterday, but much better than prior to treatment.
I have another treatment tomorrow and will update my "feeling score" both before and after. I'm pretty proud of my scoring method. If I get in the habit of tracking my mood that way, day by day, it should give me some real insight into any pattern. It also provides a way for me to have a realistic comparison. Cuz sometimes I actually forget exactly how I was feeling on any given day... I wish I had been tracking my mood this way since I started weaning off the meds. Oh well...
Wishing you all a happy day - and thanks for being here...
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 6, 2010, at 15:17:46
In reply to My Neurofeedback Experience, posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 15:56:57
Good luck with it!
Posted by janejane on May 7, 2010, at 12:25:59
In reply to 48 hours after My Neurofeedback Experience, posted by StillHopefull on May 6, 2010, at 14:14:45
Hey even you did have a placebo response, a couple of pretty good days are nothing to sneeze at. I'm surprised that this procedure is covered by insurance, that's so cool. Looking forward to reading your updates!
Posted by StillHopefull on May 10, 2010, at 11:34:11
In reply to Re: 48 hours after My Neurofeedback Experience » StillHopefull, posted by janejane on May 7, 2010, at 12:25:59
Well, it has been 6 days since my first neurofeedback experience. My last treatment was on Friday. I still don't feel as despondent as I felt before starting the treatment - i.e. still not crying. That's a good thing.
I feel slightly better. Not as good as I did right after the first treatment, but better than I did before I started.
My next treatment is in two days. I will post a followup.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 10, 2010, at 11:36:26
In reply to Almost a week after 1st Neurofeedback Experience, posted by StillHopefull on May 10, 2010, at 11:34:11
The cost of the first treatment (15 minutes) which included consultation was $90.
Subsequent treatments lasting 30 minutes are $75 each.
Posted by janejane on May 10, 2010, at 13:13:31
In reply to Cost of Neurofeedback, posted by StillHopefull on May 10, 2010, at 11:36:26
Thanks for the info. It sounds like a lot (to me), but if it works, it'll definitely be worth it. Even though you didn't feel as good after Friday's treatment as you did the first one, it's still promising that you're still better than you were at your baseline. Hopefully things will improve over time. Please keep us updated!
Posted by meAgain on May 17, 2010, at 17:03:19
In reply to Re: My Neurofeedback Experience, posted by chujoe on May 5, 2010, at 17:00:26
What is the name of the Dr...if you don't mind sharing..
thanks :)
Posted by StillHopefull on May 17, 2010, at 18:04:28
In reply to Re: My Neurofeedback Experience, posted by meAgain on May 17, 2010, at 17:03:19
> What is the name of the Dr...if you don't mind sharing..
> thanks :)www.quantumneurocare.com
Posted by janejane on May 17, 2010, at 18:10:33
In reply to Re: My Neurofeedback Experience, posted by StillHopefull on May 17, 2010, at 18:04:28
Updates?
Posted by StillHopefull on May 17, 2010, at 18:57:57
In reply to Re: My Neurofeedback Experience » StillHopefull, posted by janejane on May 17, 2010, at 18:10:33
So I have had a total of 3 treatments in the last 2 weeks. My last treatment was this past Friday afternoon.
I still haven't made up my mind whether I believe it is helping me or not. When I think of it with my logical brain, I just don't see how it can work. I was dozing off during the last treatment and tried really hard to stay alert. When the session was over, I mentioned how much difficulty I had staying awake. The dr. said it didn't matter if I fell asleep - the treatment would still be effective. WTF??? Then what is the point of staring at the pictures on the screen?
Anyway - I do feel better in that I am not crying all day. There is that to be thankful for. And I was very productive over the weekend. I cleaned the floors in the kitchen, living room, and dining room. Moving furniture, area rugs, the whole deep cleaning thing. Even vacuumed the furniture.
So was it the treatment that made me feel so energetic? Or was it the guilt trip my husband laid on me the night before? Saying I needed to stop cratering and get it together and pull my weight in the house and blah, blah, blah. Guilt can be pretty motivating.
Oh oh. By responding to Hubby's whining, did I just confirm that I CAN actually get it together if I really want to? I certainly don't want to give the Mr. confirmation that he can motivate me by fussing at me. That would be terrible.
Its all very confusing - honestly, would I even get out of bed if I didn't HAVE to take care of things? I don't think so. So there! That means I'm still depressed. I can't take pleasure in ordinary things like going outside, or taking a walk. I have to FORCE myself to accomplish anything. That isn't the way it should be.
But at least I'm not crying all day.
I have this week and next week to see how things go. If I don't see a dramatic improvement, I guess it's back to the meds. I HATE to go through that again. BUT I can look back and remember what it was like to have energy and motivation. Going to work, then coming home and cooking dinner, then working on my little art projects - going to the movies or festivals on the weekends. I don't have that life now. I just stay in bed and read or watch TV. My home and family are doing without... Thats no way to live. They deserve better and so do I.
Posted by janejane on May 17, 2010, at 22:15:56
In reply to Update, posted by StillHopefull on May 17, 2010, at 18:57:57
Thanks for the update.
I think if your depression was severe enough that you were crying most of the time, it was probably the treatment rather than hubby's fussing that motivated you to be productive. Just my take. (Personally, I'd probably just fall apart even more if someone nagged me when I was really down.) Then again, the improvement might be due to something else entirely, like the longer spring days. It's hard to know for sure.
As for being able to enjoy life, one step at a time. Not crying is an improvement, as was the cleaning spree. Hopefully you'll make more gains over time. Definitely let us know what happens over the next couple of weeks.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 18, 2010, at 10:44:32
In reply to Re: Update » StillHopefull, posted by janejane on May 17, 2010, at 22:15:56
Posted by StillHopefull on May 21, 2010, at 16:25:51
In reply to Thanks for your kind words - they help a lot! (nm) » janejane, posted by StillHopefull on May 18, 2010, at 10:44:32
I had treatment #5 this morning. I'm not ready to give the treatments any credit, but I am definitely feeling better than I was 3 weeks ago before I started.
Before the treatments I was severely depressed, crying all the time, no energy, constantly thinking of suicide. I would never actually kill myself, but I sure was thinking about it a LOT!
I haven't felt like crying since my first treatment. Every day I feel a little bit better. I still don't have a lot of energy though. And I still am staying in bed too much. But I'm not in bed all day! I'm getting up and getting dressed!
Besides the neurofeedback, the only change in lifestyle I have made is to add a multi-vitamin, 800mg magnesium, 6000 units Vit.D, 3000mg fish oil, and 2500mcg Vit.B12.
So perhaps it is a combination of everything... I have 2 more treatments scheduled for next week. I will keep you posted.
Posted by janejane on May 21, 2010, at 18:12:47
In reply to After 3 wks - 5 Neurofeedback treatments, posted by StillHopefull on May 21, 2010, at 16:25:51
I'm glad to hear that you're continuing to improve, no matter how gradual. Even if you don't know whether it's the neurofeedback, supplements, or a combo, the good news is that you're feeling better.
Was it a naturopath who recommended the supplements?
Posted by StillHopefull on May 21, 2010, at 19:31:35
In reply to Re: After 3 wks - 5 Neurofeedback treatments » StillHopefull, posted by janejane on May 21, 2010, at 18:12:47
> I'm glad to hear that you're continuing to improve, no matter how gradual. Even if you don't know whether it's the neurofeedback, supplements, or a combo, the good news is that you're feeling better.
Thanks!> Was it a naturopath who recommended the supplements?
Yes, the naturopath recommended the supplements. She also recommended that I take 5htp, but I decided not to. I have had enough of substances that mess around with my serotonin levels... I want to try and get my brain as natural as possible.
Posted by chujoe on May 25, 2010, at 8:35:31
In reply to Re: After 3 wks - 5 Neurofeedback treatments » janejane, posted by StillHopefull on May 21, 2010, at 19:31:35
I find that supplements -- vit D, fish oil -- seem to help my medications work more effectively. I suppose they might also help one's "natural" or "normal" brain chemistry function more efficiently. (I don't like to use those words I put in quotes because I think it is "natural" in an evolutionary sense for human beings to put all kinds of things into their bodies that affect their moods -- some benign, some dangerous.)
Also, regarding neurofeedback & placebo effect. I'm convinced that being cared for directly and personally can have a powerful healing effect. I don't know the neurofeedback procedure or the person you're seeing, but it could be that just having someone take a particular interest in you has been helpful. Before there were psych drugs, even before there was psychaitry, people recovered from depression & many other forms of madness simply by being taken care of, treated with respect. (Of course, many others didn't improve with simple care & many others never got care of any kind.) Last year when I was in the grip of a wildly activated bout of anxiety / depression, it took me almost six weeks to get in to see the one psychiatrist at our small town hospital, but after he spent an hour with me, even before I filled the prescription he'd given me, I felt a huge lift in my mood. Placebo? Maybe, if that's what you want to call it. But there is literature describing how even back ward schizophrenics improve when therapists listen to their stories and try to piece together their meanings. [See Susan Baur, "The Dinosaur Man" -- Harper Collins 1991.]
Posted by StillHopefull on May 25, 2010, at 10:12:12
In reply to Re: After 3 wks - 5 Neurofeedback treatments, posted by chujoe on May 25, 2010, at 8:35:31
Well it is very interesting...
I agree that being treated with kindness, respect, and dignity can go a long way toward making one feel much better. That being said, in regards to my neurofeedback treatments, I don't even see the doctor (saw her the first time only). I just show up for the appointment, the assistant hooks me up, I sit through the treatment, I'm unplugged. That's basically it. Before I leave the assistant asks me if I'm feeling any improvements. I say, "I think so" and thats the end of it.
So I still wonder if its really working...
Posted by chujoe on May 25, 2010, at 10:40:52
In reply to Re: After 3 wks - 5 Neurofeedback treatments, posted by StillHopefull on May 25, 2010, at 10:12:12
Well, that is odd. I don't have any experience with the technique so I haven't got a clue. I know that biofeedback can be used to train certain kinds of somatic responses, but from what you've said there really isn't any training going on here. Certainly glad you're feeling better.
I had something of a similar response to acupuncture for pain in my neck, though I think I at least half believe in it. But my acupuncturist always talked to me each week and then spent a considerable amount of time getting the needles positioned, then left me alone for half an hour in a dimly lit room -- kind of a forced meditation. I actually did feel interesting nerve effects, but it didn't do more for pain than massage and relaxation have. But I liked being "take care of," which is where I got that idea. Somehow the ancient practice of laying on of hands seems palliative, if not curative. I bet the nurses on this board can speak to that aspect of healing, since in modern medicine it is mostly their hands that do the work of caring.
Posted by Lao Tzu on June 3, 2010, at 21:00:12
In reply to Re: After 3 wks - 5 Neurofeedback treatments, posted by StillHopefull on May 25, 2010, at 10:12:12
Did you ever try cognitive behavioral therapy with a therapist in addition to Neurofeedback? The CBT to deal with emotional issues. The supplements are helpful too.
Posted by Jimmyboy on June 27, 2010, at 11:18:45
In reply to Re: After 3 wks - 5 Neurofeedback treatments, posted by Lao Tzu on June 3, 2010, at 21:00:12
Hi can you give us an update on your neurofeedback? Are you still doing it and if so, is it still helpful? Hope that it is..
This is the end of the thread.
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