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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TylerJ on April 1, 2006, at 8:01:53
I've heard that Magnesium Citrate can help with insomnia problems. Is this true?
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 2, 2006, at 9:38:10
In reply to Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by TylerJ on April 1, 2006, at 8:01:53
Hi!
I'm not too sure which form of magnesium is best, but in general magnesium is good for sleep, as well as for anxiety, and muscle cramps. It helps you to relax. You can also get it from dark green leafy veg.
Posted by TylerJ on April 2, 2006, at 10:04:03
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 2, 2006, at 9:38:10
> Hi!
>
> I'm not too sure which form of magnesium is best, but in general magnesium is good for sleep, as well as for anxiety, and muscle cramps. It helps you to relax. You can also get it from dark green leafy veg.Thank You!
Tyler
Posted by nolvas on April 2, 2006, at 16:38:47
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep? » Meri-Tuuli, posted by TylerJ on April 2, 2006, at 10:04:03
Magnesium Glycinate or Magnesium Taurinate are best from what I've read about here and elsewhere.
Posted by LOOPS on April 2, 2006, at 18:33:31
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by nolvas on April 2, 2006, at 16:38:47
Magnesium citrate give me the runs on more than 200mg.
Magnesium glycinate helps for sleep, but decreases taurine which makes me more anxious the next day (take taurine in the day to balance this).
Magnesium chloride makes me very energized and helps clear up my eczema.
I've yet to try the malate. I've had good success though with a 'mixed form' containing lots of different types - no diarrhea at a surprisingly high dose for me (400mg). I get the runs pretty easily. Also watch for candida at higher doses - I initially started taking A LOT of magnesium and immediately had bad candida. Less can be more, despite what everyone says about things.
Loops
Posted by Cairo on April 7, 2006, at 11:11:06
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by LOOPS on April 2, 2006, at 18:33:31
Why not take magnesium taurate? Cardiovascular Research makes it.
Cairo
> Magnesium glycinate helps for sleep, but decreases taurine which makes me more anxious the next day (take taurine in the day to balance this).
>
> Magnesium chloride makes me very energized and helps clear up my eczema.
>
> I've yet to try the malate. I've had good success though with a 'mixed form' containing lots of different types - no diarrhea at a surprisingly high dose for me (400mg). I get the runs pretty easily. Also watch for candida at higher doses - I initially started taking A LOT of magnesium and immediately had bad candida. Less can be more, despite what everyone says about things.
>
> Loops
Posted by LOOPS on April 9, 2006, at 9:42:48
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by Cairo on April 7, 2006, at 11:11:06
Hi -
yeah I would try the taurate form but I live in Chile and the cheapest sites I order from in the US don't stock it. It seems quite spendy. Also too much taurine has bad effects on me - indeed too much of ANY amino seems to have really unbalancing effects, and to take enough magnesium that would mean a whole lot of taurine.
I know George goes on about how he took loads and loads of taurine and magnesium and no calcium etc etc but this would be TERRIBLE for me. I already had problems taking magnesium without calcium (ending up with heart rhythm problems), and too much taurine gives me insomnia.
If I take magnesium without balancing with Ca I get very very nervous, hot and sweaty and my hands start shaking. My heart starts doing this baboomdiboom thing as well. I have NO idea why that is, but it is. Maybe I am not like everyone else and actually need calcium with the mg? I haven't noticed increased depression with the calcium, but then I am taking the Mg with it, so maybe that is why.
Hmmm. Raaaaamble.
Loops
Posted by Green Willow on April 21, 2006, at 21:38:19
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by LOOPS on April 9, 2006, at 9:42:48
> Hi -
>
> yeah I would try the taurate form but I live in Chile and the cheapest sites I order from in the US don't stock it. It seems quite spendy. Also too much taurine has bad effects on me - indeed too much of ANY amino seems to have really unbalancing effects, and to take enough magnesium that would mean a whole lot of taurine.
>
> I know George goes on about how he took loads and loads of taurine and magnesium and no calcium etc etc but this would be TERRIBLE for me. I already had problems taking magnesium without calcium (ending up with heart rhythm problems), and too much taurine gives me insomnia.
>
> If I take magnesium without balancing with Ca I get very very nervous, hot and sweaty and my hands start shaking. My heart starts doing this baboomdiboom thing as well. I have NO idea why that is, but it is. Maybe I am not like everyone else and actually need calcium with the mg? I haven't noticed increased depression with the calcium, but then I am taking the Mg with it, so maybe that is why.
>
> Hmmm. Raaaaamble.
>
> LoopsI too get the heart baboom thing with magnesium glycinate at both 100 and 200 mg. I get kidney stones from calcium as I have calcium malabsorption. Everything is all messed up in me, but I do have to say that I did sleep better and the muscles did relax a bit when I tried the magnesium. Also had it injected and that put me right to sleep and relaxed the body well, but it also made my heart do a dance.
Green Willow
Posted by dessbee on May 17, 2006, at 6:48:24
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep? » LOOPS, posted by Green Willow on April 21, 2006, at 21:38:19
Magnesium only made my depression worse and did nothing for my sleep.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 8:37:10
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by dessbee on May 17, 2006, at 6:48:24
> Magnesium only made my depression worse and did nothing for my sleep.
Did you try adding calcium, in either a 1:1 ratio, or 1:2, magnesium to calcium?
Everybody is different, and I don't think you completed the experiment.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 9:16:33
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by LOOPS on April 9, 2006, at 9:42:48
> Maybe I am not like everyone else and actually need calcium with the mg?
> Hmmm. Raaaaamble
I'm going to ramble, too.
Uhhh, yes you can affect calcium balance by taking magnesium, if your body had already begun robbing your bones of minerals to obtain the magnesium it craved. Your body will sacrifice your skeleton to stay alive.
If your body starts obtaining sufficient magnesium from diet/supps, it indirectly influences the parathyroid gland, and induces increases in parathyroid hormone levels. In bone, that hormone stimulates osteoblasts, the cells that are constantly redepositing the bone salt hydroxyapatite. Kidney cells pull more calcium back out of urine, and enhance phosphate excretion. What would mess this up is not having enough calcium also in your diet, and/or not enough vitamin D. Hypomagnesemia causes end-organ resistance to PTH and inhibits the hypocalcemic feedback loop through uncertain mechanisms.
Your symptoms are consistent with hypermagnesemia, so there is something messed in your PTH response.
I think you should discuss this with a doctor, preferably an internist. Your kidneys and your parathyroid aren't communicating properly.
Does your bloodwork ever show disturbances in phosphate?
Lar
Posted by LOOPS on May 24, 2006, at 10:31:46
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep? » LOOPS, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 9:16:33
Hi Larry -
thanks for the input. Unfortunately my medical insurance doesn't cover trips to my doctor, and here in Chile going to the doctor is an expensive business. Also, she doesn't seem to know much about supplements etc. - last time I saw her I was telling HER about magnesium. I doubt she would end up referring me - probably just tell me to stop taking the magnesium and offer me meds for the depression/anxiety.
I do take cod liver oil and get out in the sun most days. Should I try cal/mag in a 2:1 then? Or just ditch them both? Or ditch the cod liver oil?
I'm really confused.
Thanks
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 16:46:12
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by LOOPS on May 24, 2006, at 10:31:46
> Hi Larry -
>
> thanks for the input. Unfortunately my medical insurance doesn't cover trips to my doctor, and here in Chile going to the doctor is an expensive business. Also, she doesn't seem to know much about supplements etc. - last time I saw her I was telling HER about magnesium. I doubt she would end up referring me - probably just tell me to stop taking the magnesium and offer me meds for the depression/anxiety.Maybe you can just ask for the specific tests to be run? One possible explanation for your developing hypermagnesemia symptoms, those from significant excess of magnesium in your blood, is a failure to regulate. That could be a milder inborn error in e.g. the hypothyroid, or a secondary disturbance something like insulin resistance in the periphery. ParaThyroid Hormone (PTH) is supposed to keep your kidneys properly responsive, and the kidneys are supposed to use vitamin D as they see fit. You're not getting a response fast enough to save you from magnesium poisoning symptoms. That just plain should not happen.
So, take enough magnesium to make it wrong, a little bit (don't make yourself too sick to manage things), and get a blood sample. Test for magnesium, calcium, phosphate and potassium, blood pH, and PTH concentration. If they do vitamin D, get that too. Urinalysis, the standard tests. Urine magnesium, and calcium, if not part of the standard tests. Urine protein might be really important, but it's usually part of the standard testing. Just make sure those are included.
> I do take cod liver oil and get out in the sun most days. Should I try cal/mag in a 2:1 then? Or just ditch them both? Or ditch the cod liver oil?
>
> I'm really confused.
>
> Thanks
>
> LoopsYou want to find out what is wrong, so you want to mess it all up at least on the day you get your blood drawn. Until then, go with your intuition, about what feels okay.
It is also possible you're just very sensitive to magnesium. I'd like to rule out the other options, though. I hope you understand what I mean.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 17:16:28
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep? » LOOPS, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 16:46:12
> That could be a milder inborn error in e.g. the hypothyroid,
That should read parathyroid.
Lar
Posted by Green Willow on May 24, 2006, at 22:29:02
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep? » LOOPS, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 16:46:12
Larry,
Can you tell me what gives with the heart atrial fib thing that I get with Magnesium? And stones that I get from calcium? They say I have calcium malabsorption ~ have osteoporosis and sometimes "secondary hypoparathyroidism". I just need more info if you have thoughts to share.
Thanks, Green Willow
Posted by LOOPS on May 26, 2006, at 9:28:37
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep? » Larry Hoover, posted by Green Willow on May 24, 2006, at 22:29:02
Thanks Larry -
I will make a note of all those things and ask her to do the tests - I suppose she can only say no. Meanwhile I'll just take a small amount of the magnesium and try to cope with any arrythmias I get.
Thanks once more - you are a gem!
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2006, at 8:23:06
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep? » Larry Hoover, posted by Green Willow on May 24, 2006, at 22:29:02
> Larry,
> Can you tell me what gives with the heart atrial fib thing that I get with Magnesium? And stones that I get from calcium? They say I have calcium malabsorption ~ have osteoporosis and sometimes "secondary hypoparathyroidism". I just need more info if you have thoughts to share.
> Thanks, Green WillowSecondary hypoparathyroidism is a serious disturbance in your ability to handle calcium and magnesium ions. There is a special regulatory system set up just to manage these two minerals. Yours doesn't work right.
Secondary hypoparathyroidism is really another name for primary hypercalcemia. All of your difficulties arise because you have too much calcium in your blood (assuming secondary hypo is what you have). In an attempt to down-regulate calcium concentration to normal levels, your body has over-compensated, because nothing happened when the controls shifted to balance things better. It's like when you go to turn down the sound on the TV, but you're pushing the wrong button, and you just keep pushing it.....until you realize it's the wrong button, that is. Your body has shut down all the normal ways of managing calcium because it won't stop trying to push the wrong button(s).
Even bone-building has been messed with, because your body is still pushing the wrong buttons. It seems paradoxical to have weak bone when you have too much calcium in your blood, but that's one of the outcomes.
Here's an article that hopefully will give you some ideas about your own body, and then we can talk about managing it better.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1068.htm
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2006, at 8:28:44
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep?, posted by LOOPS on May 26, 2006, at 9:28:37
> Thanks Larry -
>
> I will make a note of all those things and ask her to do the tests - I suppose she can only say no. Meanwhile I'll just take a small amount of the magnesium and try to cope with any arrythmias I get.
>
> Thanks once more - you are a gem!
>
> LoopsThanks.
Don't forget about the stomach acid thing. What you've told me about how your body works almost gives me absolute confidence that you have hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid). I had it. I don't have it now. Untreated, it is a vicious circle. The nutrients you can't absorb because of it are precisely the ones you need to treat it. So, you have to over-compensate with those specific nutrients I mentioned, to increase your uptake via passive diffusion. Your pumps can't function, so you need to rely on gut-wall leakage effects, to get the nutrients you need into your blood, where they can then be available to the gut wall cells that need them to fix their enzymes.
Bizarre as it may sound, hypochlorhydria is often associated with the symptom cluster we call GERD.
Lar
Posted by dessbee on June 1, 2006, at 10:11:56
In reply to Re: Magnesium Citrate for Sleep? » dessbee, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 8:37:10
Yes, ratio was 200:400 mg magnesium/calcium
There are very few sites that warns about magnesium used for treating depression.
The right word for too much magnesium is apathy and insomnia. The problem with magnesium is that it has an inhibiting effect on the brain.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2006, at 6:23:51
In reply to ratio was 1:2 magnesium/calcium » Larry Hoover, posted by dessbee on June 1, 2006, at 10:11:56
> Yes, ratio was 200:400 mg magnesium/calcium
> There are very few sites that warns about magnesium used for treating depression.
> The right word for too much magnesium is apathy and insomnia. The problem with magnesium is that it has an inhibiting effect on the brain.The calcium magnesium ratio should be considered a guide, if a whole slew of variables are "normal". It may not do you any good to supplement magnesium if you take it with enough calcium to negate its effect. There is no "right" amount, except the one that works.
Magnesium is inhibiting. Absolutely true. That may or may not be a good thing, for any one person.
If a person is depressed *and* not sleeping, magnesium may provide profound relief. If a person is depressed and over-sleeping, magnesium is contra-indicated.
The thing is, it depends.
Lar
Posted by LOOPS on June 7, 2006, at 8:16:25
In reply to Re: ratio was 1:2 magnesium/calcium » dessbee, posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2006, at 6:23:51
I think there is a big difference between taking a 2:1 Ca:Mg and a 1:1 - well there is with me. There is a site somewhere that advises taking magnesium alone for the first couple of months and then if there is no change in symptoms, or things get better then worse again, to add in a little calcium, but always to be on the look out for return of symptoms with too much calcium.
That seems a more sensible way to go about it. 1:1 is the ratio I come out with after experimenting - I would do a higher mag than this - but then arrythmias are back - I DO think these are due to an imbalance between calcium and magnesium - with me anyway.
It just depends on the person as usual. However I also know people who chug down calcium pills with whatever mag oxide is in them without any mental problems at all.
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 13, 2006, at 7:32:31
In reply to Re: ratio was 1:2 magnesium/calcium, posted by LOOPS on June 7, 2006, at 8:16:25
> I think there is a big difference between taking a 2:1 Ca:Mg and a 1:1 - well there is with me. There is a site somewhere that advises taking magnesium alone for the first couple of months and then if there is no change in symptoms, or things get better then worse again, to add in a little calcium, but always to be on the look out for return of symptoms with too much calcium.
>
> That seems a more sensible way to go about it. 1:1 is the ratio I come out with after experimenting - I would do a higher mag than this - but then arrythmias are back - I DO think these are due to an imbalance between calcium and magnesium - with me anyway.Sounds like you are getting you figured out. That is good.
> It just depends on the person as usual. However I also know people who chug down calcium pills with whatever mag oxide is in them without any mental problems at all.
>
> LoopsPeople who chug down pills do not necessarily have a non-zero uptake. It is very commonplace to make the logical error implied therein. Intake is not uptake.
The parathyroid, with vitamin D acting in the kidney, regulates uptake.
If you don't need the calcium, your body won't take it up. Unfortunately, you may not need calcium, and your body has shut down the pumps that uptake magnesium. (Same pumps.) So, you get diarrhea from the magnesium because your body can't uptake it. Your body isn't totally stupid, though. It will sense the increased magnesium in the gut (if you keep taking it daily), and over-ride the calcium shut-down signal. The pumps do start up, eventually (but if and only if you have enough vitamin D). Then, you can get magnesium uptake, instead of diarrhea.
Doctors know this, but they're kinda stupid about it. If someone is clinically hypomagnesemic (very low blood magnesium), they will use an IV to get it back up again. That bypasses the pumps. But it doesn't adjust the pumps. It's duct tape medicine.
Lar
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