![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 197 to 221 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2005, at 8:31:38
In reply to Re: Arghhh » KaraS, posted by Elroy on April 27, 2005, at 20:20:31
> Thanks for info. That would make sense. Right now primary objective with selegiline is to get norepinehprine levels back up into mid normal ranges, so tyrosine should be just as effective for those purposes, eh?
No, not on a gram for gram basis. Think of the path to NE being like a limited access highway.
You're starting right at the origin of that highway, and there's a lot of traffic. The very first exit goes to PEA, and all of the D-phenylalanine and a small chunk of the L-phenylalanine gets off at that exit, but none of the tyrosine does.
Then there's a toll booth. The tyrosine gets to bypass the booth, but the L-PA has to pay, by getting turned into tyrosine. So, past this booth, the whole highway is filled with tyrosine.
Up ahead, there's a sign "Through traffic to dopamine, left two lanes. All other traffic, right lane." Some tyrosine gets off the highway, to become thyroid hormone and other stuff.
The through traffic faces another toll booth, but all of the tyrosine has to stop. It comes out of the booth as L-DOPA, direct precursor to dopamine (and NE thereafter).
If you started that highway with one gram each of d-,l-phenylalanine (DLPA), l-phenylalanine (L-PA), or tyrosine, the yield in L-DOPA (traffic still on the through highway at the last toll booth) would be about: 30%, 65%, and 85%, respectively (and with huge assumptions about muscles not building any protein during this trip, etc.).
Of that same one gram dose, yield of PEA would be about 60%, 15%, and < 1%, respectively. Tyrosine can back-convert to phenylalanine, so I'm not setting the latter yield to zero.
If NE is your target, tyrosine is your best bullet.
> Also, I know that selegiline converts to dopamine and that it's the dopamine that actually makes the conversion into NE.
I don't see that selegiline converts to dopamine.
http://www.selegiline.com/refs/index.html
Select the one that says "dopamine"
Lots of other great references in that list, and in ones that come up below individual references themselves.
There's another problem with your assumption. Providing a ready supply of NE is one thing. Enhancing its effect is quite another. NE isn't just floating around the brain. It is stored in special little containers called synaptosomes. If you want the effect of NE, you've got to enhance its release somehow, which means causing those synaptosomes to release their contents.
All told, indirect effects of selegiline might well do that, but I'm not even going to try to figure out a mechanism for it.
You're always back to the final test.....doing the experiment. Try the drug, and see how you feel, with and without DLPA and/or tyrosine.
> Question: Does anyone know if there's any particular supplement needed to enhance that conversion (B6, Vitamin C, etc., etc.)???
>
> Thanks for any info.General core supps, in any case. B-complex, C, zinc, selenium, etc. should be part of the routine intake. You *already* need them, not just for this specific purpose.
Lar
Posted by world citizen on April 28, 2005, at 12:43:20
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc » world citizen, posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2005, at 7:56:31
Hey Larry, do you have access to any live music where you live, specifically music that you would find appealing? If my memory serves me correctly you're the one with the chronically acute pain in your arm, right? If I'm on track with this and you're the one that's been "winged" what are they doing about it-besides getting finger callouses from all the energetic paper shuffling? The reason I'm asking this is due to the fact that I believe that everyone that has the ablility to be creative a) owes it to the planet to share it,"The musician's art is among those arts worthy of the highest praise, and it moveth the hearts of all who grieve." ('Abdul-Baha, Selections from the Writings of 'Abdul-Baha), and b) as my testimonial in my previous post stated it's a GREAT source of endorphins. Even if you can't play the bass (at this time) I heartily encourage you to go listen to live music that you LOVE!!!!! We ALL know that even HEARING music that one loves has a great effect on neurochemicals! I find Ambient music to be exceptional in this way. I found an interesting book at the Library called "the Mozart Effect", by Don Campbell. Pain-acute, chronic and otherwise-is adressed as is anxiety.Larry, what is your "day job"? I realize you may have shared this in a previous post but it may have been during one of my cruises "in the sea of remoteness", otherwise known as acute self-involvement! Feel free to "decline to state".
World Citizen
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 29, 2005, at 0:42:48
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc, posted by world citizen on April 28, 2005, at 12:43:20
> Hey Larry, do you have access to any live music where you live, specifically music that you would find appealing?
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups not about alternative treatments to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20050426/msgs/491294.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by world citizen on May 4, 2005, at 18:07:12
In reply to Re: Arghhh » KaraS, posted by Elroy on April 27, 2005, at 20:20:31
Hey Elroy, I don't know if you've already heard of this or not. I found a lot of impressive studies (most in India) showing the efficacy of this herb for several conditions. I initially found it in the Blood Type Diet book, it's supposed to be reccomended for bloodtype A. If you tell me what you're blood type is I'll look it up and see if it's reccomended. (it's also supposed to be very good for the liver!)
WC
Posted by Elroy on May 4, 2005, at 20:06:47
In reply to lowers cortisol? BOERHAAVIA, posted by world citizen on May 4, 2005, at 18:07:12
Never heard of it before... at least by that name.
I'm an 0-Neg.
BTW, cortisol levels in the 24hr UFC test that was done 2 weeks ago came back showing a 214 (normal range is 20 - 100). My prior one was a 106. Late Night Salivary Tests and Dexamenthasone Suppression Test continue to specify that it is not Cushings.
Posted by world citizen on May 4, 2005, at 23:13:55
In reply to Re: lowers cortisol? BOERHAAVIA » world citizen, posted by Elroy on May 4, 2005, at 20:06:47
Sorry, I couldn't find anything that resemble a link. Elroy, check out #5 in the Main Uses section.
World Citizen
Family: Nyctaginaceae
Genus: Boerhaavia
Species: diffusa, hirsuta
Synonyms: Boerhavia adscendens, B. caribaea, B. coccinea, B. erecta, B. paniculata, B. repens, B.viscosa
Common Names: Erva tostão, erva toustao, pega-pinto, hog weed, pig weed, atikamaamidi, biskhapra, djambo, etiponia, fowl’s lice, ganda’dar, ghetuli, katkatud, mahenshi, mamauri, ndandalida, oulouni niabo, paanbalibis, patal-jarh, pitasudu-pala, punar-nava, punerva, punnarnava, purnoi, samdelma, san sant, santh, santi, satadi thikedi, satodi, spreading hog weed,tellaaku, thazhuthama, thikri, touri-touri, tshrana
Part Used: whole herb, roots
From The Healing Power of Rainforest Herbs:ERVA TOSTÃO
HERBAL PROPERTIES AND ACTIONS
Main Actions Other Actions Standard Dosage
# protects liver
# detoxifies
Leaves, Root
# supports liver
# expels worms
Decoction: 1 cup 1-3
# reduces inflammation
# increases bile
times daily
# relieves pain
# cleanses blood
Tincture: 2 ml 1-3 times daily
# reduces spasms
# stops convulsions
Capsules: 500 mg - 1 g 1-3
# supports kidneys
# kills bacteria
times daily
# increases urination
# kills amebas
# stops bleeding
# kills viruses
# lowers blood pressure
# detoxifies
# mildly laxative
# stimulates milk flow
# kills parasites
Erva tostão is a vigorous, low-growing, spreading vine with a long, tuberous tap root. It produces yellow and white flowers and is sometimes considered an invasive weed. It can be found in many tropical and warm-climate countries. Indigenous to Brazil, it is found in abundance along roadsides and in the forests in and near São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, and Minas Gerais. Erva tostão is also indigenous to India, where it is found in abundance in the warmer parts of the country. Erva tostão is called punarnava in India, where it has a long history of use by indigenous and tribal people and in Ayurvedic herbal medicine systems.
TRIBAL AND HERBAL MEDICINE USES
The roots of erva tostão have held an important place in herbal medicine in both Brazil and India for many years. G. L. Cruz, one of Brazil’s leading medical herbalists, reports erva tostão is “a plant medicine of great importance, extraordinarily beneficial in the treatment of liver disorders.” It is employed in Brazilian herbal medicine to stimulate the emptying of the gallbladder, as a diuretic, for all types of liver disorders (including jaundice and hepatitis), gallbladder pain and stones, urinary tract disorders, renal disorders, kidney stones, cystitis, and nephritis. In Ayurvedic herbal medicine systems in India, the roots are employed as a diuretic, digestive aid, laxative, and menstrual promoter and to treat gonorrhea, internal inflammation of all kinds, edema, jaundice, menstrual problems, anemia, and liver, gallbladder, and kidney disorders. Throughout the tropics, erva tostão is considered an excellent natural remedy for guinea worms — a bothersome tropical parasite that lays its eggs underneath the skin of humans and livestock; the eggs later hatch into larvae or worms that eat the underlying tissue. The roots of the plant are normally softened in boiling water and then mashed up and applied as a paste or poultice to the affected areas to kill the worms and expel them from the skin.
PLANT CHEMICALS
Novel plant chemicals have been found in erva tostão, including flavonoids, steroids, and alkaloids, many of which drive its documented biological activities. The novel alkaloids found in erva tostão have been documented with immune modulating effects. In one study, the alkaloid fraction of the root evidenced a dramatic effect in reducing an elevation of cortisol levels under stressful conditions (cortisol is an inflammatory chemical produced in the body in an immune response). Simultaneously, the alkaloids (and a whole root extract) also prevented a drop in immune system performance indicating an adaptogenic immune modulation activity, which might suggest it could be helpful in preventing adrenal exhaustion.
The main plant chemicals in this plant include: alanine, arachidic acid, aspartic acid, behenic acid, boeravinone A thru F, boerhaavic acid, borhavine, borhavone, campesterol, daucosterol, ecdysone, flavones, galactose, glutamic acid, glutamine, glycine, hentriacontane, heptadecyclic acid, histidine, hypoxanthine, liriodendrin, oleaic acid, oxalic acid, palmitic acid, proline, punarnavine, serine, sitosterols, stearic acid, stigmasterol, syringaresinol, threonine, triacontan, ursolic acid, and valine.
BIOLOGICAL ACTIVITIES AND CLINICAL RESEARCH
Erva tostão has long been used in traditional medicine systems as a diuretic (to increase urination) for many types of kidney and urinary disorders. The diuretic action of erva tostão has been studied and validated by scientists in several studies. Researchers showed that low dosages (10–300 mg per kg of body weight) produced strong diuretic effects, while higher dosages (more than 300 mg/kg) produced the opposite effect—reducing urine output. Later research verified these diuretic and antidiuretic properties, as well as the beneficial kidney and renal effects of erva tostão in animals and humans. Research indicates that a root extract can increase urine output by as much as 100 percent in a twenty-four-hour period at dosages as low as 10 mg per kg of body weight.
The worldwide use of erva tostão for various liver complaints and disorders was validated in three separate studies. These indicated that a root extract provided beneficial effects in animals by protecting the liver from numerous introduced toxins and even repairing chemical-induced liver and kidney damage. In other clinical studies with animals, erva tostão extracts demonstrated smooth muscle and skeletal muscle stimulant activities in frogs and guinea pigs; anti-inflammatory actions in rats; hypotensive actions in dogs as well as in vitro hypotensive actions; antispasmodic actions in frogs and guinea pigs; analgesic activities in mice; and antiamebic actions in rats. In two studies with monkeys, a root extract was reported to reduce bleeding and uterine hemorrhaging commonly associated with wearing contraceptive IUDs. The traditional use of erva tostão for convulsions was verified by scientists in two studies, demonstrating that a root extract provided anticonvulsant actions in mice. In vitro testing of erva tostão confirmed its antibacterial properties against gonorrhea (another traditional use), as well as Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Salmonella and Staphylococcus. It was also shown to possess antiviral actions against several viral plant pathogens.
CURRENT PRACTICAL USES
Many of these animal studies help to explain erva tostão’s long history of different uses in natural medicine. Clearly, it has played an important role in the herbal practitioner’s medicine chest of natural remedies for many maladies in both South America and India. It is an effective natural remedy, especially for the liver and kidneys, which is deserving of much more attention and use here in the United States. Several research groups studying various biological activities of erva tostão have shown the safety of the plant — indicating no toxicity of root and leaf extracts taken orally by mice at up to 5 g per kg of body weight. Another group of scientists studied the effects of erva tostão on pregnant rats and reported that it had no abortive effects and no embryotoxic or teratogenic (fetal death or birth defect) activity.
ERVA TOSTÃO PLANT SUMMARY
Main Preparation Method: decoction or capsulesMain Actions (in order):
hepatotonic (tones, balances, strengthens the liver), antilithic (prevents or eliminates kidney stones), hepatoprotective (liver protector), diuretic, menstrual stimulantMain Uses:
1. for liver disorders (jaundice, hepatitis, cirrhosis, anemia, flukes, detoxification, chemical injury, etc)
2. for gallbladder disorders (stones, sluggish function, low bile production, emptying, and detoxification)
3. for kidney and urinary tract disorders (stones, nephritis, urethritis, infections, renal insufficiency/injury, etc)
4. for menstrual disorders (pain, cramps, excessive bleeding, uterine spasms, water retention)5. to tone, balance, and strengthen the adrenals (and for adrenal exhaustion and excess cortisol production
Properties/Actions Documented by Research:
ACE-inhibitor (typically lowers blood pressure), analgesic (pain-reliever), anti-inflammatory, antiamebic, antibacterial, anticonvulsant, antihemorrhagic (reduces bleeding), antispasmodic, antiviral, liver and gallbladder bile stimulant, diuretic, hepatoprotective (liver protector), hepatotonic (tones, balances, strengthens the liver), hypotensive (lowers blood pressure), immune modulator (selectively lowers overactive immune cells)Other Properties/Actions Documented by Traditional Use:
antihistamine, antilithic (prevents or eliminates kidney stones), aperient (mild laxative), blood cleanser, cardiotonic (tones, balances, strengthens the heart), carminative (expels gas), detoxifier, digestive stimulant, kidney tonic (tones, balances, strengthens the kidneys), lactagogue (promotes milk flow), menstrual stimulant, uterine stimulant, vermifuge (expels worms)Cautions: It is contraindicated in some heart diseases; it has hypotensive (lowers blood pressure), cardiac depressant, and ACE-inhibitor effects.
Traditional Preparation: For a general liver tonic, 1 cup of a whole herb or root decoction or 2 ml of a 4:1 tincture is taken once daily. This same dosage is taken two to three times daily for various liver and kidney disorders. For a natural diuretic, 500 mg of the root in capsules or tablets can be taken twice daily. As a menstrual aid (to reduce menstrual pain, cramping, and excessive bleeding) 1 cup of a whole herb or root decoction or 1–2 g in tablets or capsules can be taken two to three times daily as needed. See Traditional Herbal Remedies Preparation Methods page if necessary for definitions.Contraindications:
* Both in vivo and in vitro studies have demonstrated the hypotensive properties of erva tostão. Those with heart problems such as low blood pressure, or those taking medications to lower their blood pressure should not use this plant without the advice and supervision of a qualified health care practitioner as blood pressure levels should be monitored closely.
* This herb has also demonstrated myocardial depressant activity and should therefore not be taken by anyone with heart failure or those taking heart depressant medications unless under the direction and care of a qualified health care practitioner.Drug Interactions: Erva tostão may interfere with prescription diuretics and may potentiate cardiac depressant medications. Erva tostão has been documented in one in vitro study to have angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibition action. Therefore, this plant may potentiate ACE inhibitor drugs for high blood pressure.
In one study, an oral dosage of 500 mg/kg (leaf extract) in mice inhibited barbiturates and decreased sleeping time. Therefore, the use of this plant may decrease the effect of barbiturates.
WORLDWIDE ETHNOMEDICAL USES
Brazil for albuminuria, beri-beri, bile insufficiency, cystitis, edema, gallbladder problems, gallstones, gonorrhea, guinea worms, hepatitis, hypertension, jaundice, kidney disorders, kidney stones, liver disorders, liver support, nephritis, renal disorders, sclerosis (liver), snakebite, spleen (enlarged), urinary disorders, urinary retention
Guatemala for erysipelas, guinea worms
India for abdominal pain, anemia, ascites, asthma, blood purification, cancer, cataracts, childbirth, cholera, constipation, cough, debility, digestive sluggishness, dropsy, dyspepsia, edema, eye problems, fever, gonorrhea, guinea worms, heart ailments, heart disease, hemorrhages (childbirth), hemorrhages (thoracic), hemorrhoids, inflammation (internal), internal parasites, jaundice, kidney disorders, kidney stones, lactation aid, liver disorders, liver support, menstrual disorders, renal insufficiency, rheumatism, snakebite, spleen (enlarged), urinary disorders, weakness, and as a diuretic and expectorant
Iran for edema, gonorrhea, hives, intestinal gas, jaundice, joint pain, lumbago, nephritis, and as an appetite stimulant, diuretic and expectorant
Nigeria for abscesses, asthma, boils, convulsions, epilepsy, fever, guinea worms, and as an expectorant and laxative
West Africa for abortion, guinea worms, menstrual irregularities, and as an aphrodisiac
Elsewhere for childbirth, guinea worms, jaundice, sterility, yawsThe above text has been printed from The Healing Power of Rainforest Herbs by Leslie Taylor, copyrighted © 2005
All rights reserved. No part of this document may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or by any information storage or retrieval system, including websites, without written permission.A complete Technical Data Report is available for this plant.
† The statements contained herein have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. The information contained in this plant database file is intended for education, entertainment and information purposes only. This information is not intended to be used to diagnose, prescribe or replace proper medical care. The plant described herein is not intended to treat, cure, diagnose, mitigate or prevent any disease. Please refer to our Conditions of Use for using this plant database file and web site.
Posted by Elroy on May 5, 2005, at 6:55:03
In reply to EXTENSIVE information on boerhaavia, posted by world citizen on May 4, 2005, at 23:13:55
Sounds quite intersting.
Any reasonable Internet sources?
Only caution that I would have is that I naturally have moderately low blood pressure (like 110/70 range +/- 5, with pulse in 68 - 72 range normally... will get pulse spikes up over 100 out of the clear blue and get BP spikes - again out of nowhere in the 140/95 range +/- 5... with these all being resting rates).
> Sorry, I couldn't find anything that resemble a link. Elroy, check out #5 in the Main Uses section.
> World Citizen
>
> Family: Nyctaginaceae
> Genus: Boerhaavia
> Species: diffusa, hirsuta
> Synonyms: Boerhavia adscendens, B. caribaea, B. coccinea, B. erecta, B. paniculata, B. repens, B.viscosa
> Common Names: Erva tostão, erva toustao, pega-pinto, hog weed, pig weed, atikamaamidi, biskhapra, djambo, etiponia, fowl’s lice, ganda’dar, ghetuli, katkatud, mahenshi, mamauri, ndandalida, oulouni niabo, paanbalibis, patal-jarh, pitasudu-pala, punar-nava, punerva, punnarnava, purnoi, samdelma, san sant, santh, santi, satadi thikedi, satodi, spreading hog weed,tellaaku, thazhuthama, thikri, touri-touri, tshrana
> Part Used: whole herb, roots
>
>
> From The Healing Power of Rainforest Herbs:
>
> ERVA TOSTÃO
> HERBAL PROPERTIES AND ACTIONS
> Main Actions Other Actions Standard Dosage
> # protects liver
> # detoxifies
> Leaves, Root
> # supports liver
> # expels worms
> Decoction: 1 cup 1-3
> # reduces inflammation
> # increases bile
> times daily
> # relieves pain
> # cleanses blood
> Tincture: 2 ml 1-3 times daily
> # reduces spasms
> # stops convulsions
> Capsules: 500 mg - 1 g 1-3
> # supports kidneys
> # kills bacteria
> times daily
> # increases urination
> # kills amebas
>
> # stops bleeding
> # kills viruses
>
> # lowers blood pressure
> # detoxifies
>
> # mildly laxative
> # stimulates milk flow
>
> # kills parasites
>
>
> Erva tostão is a vigorous, low-growing, spreading vine with a long, tuberous tap root. It produces yellow and white flowers and is sometimes considered an invasive weed. It can be found in many tropical and warm-climate countries. Indigenous to Brazil, it is found in abundance along roadsides and in the forests in and near São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, and Minas Gerais. Erva tostão is also indigenous to India, where it is found in abundance in the warmer parts of the country. Erva tostão is called punarnava in India, where it has a long history of use by indigenous and tribal people and in Ayurvedic herbal medicine systems.
>
> TRIBAL AND HERBAL MEDICINE USES
>
> The roots of erva tostão have held an important place in herbal medicine in both Brazil and India for many years. G. L. Cruz, one of Brazil’s leading medical herbalists, reports erva tostão is “a plant medicine of great importance, extraordinarily beneficial in the treatment of liver disorders.” It is employed in Brazilian herbal medicine to stimulate the emptying of the gallbladder, as a diuretic, for all types of liver disorders (including jaundice and hepatitis), gallbladder pain and stones, urinary tract disorders, renal disorders, kidney stones, cystitis, and nephritis. In Ayurvedic herbal medicine systems in India, the roots are employed as a diuretic, digestive aid, laxative, and menstrual promoter and to treat gonorrhea, internal inflammation of all kinds, edema, jaundice, menstrual problems, anemia, and liver, gallbladder, and kidney disorders. Throughout the tropics, erva tostão is considered an excellent natural remedy for guinea worms — a bothersome tropical parasite that lays its eggs underneath the skin of humans and livestock; the eggs later hatch into larvae or worms that eat the underlying tissue. The roots of the plant are normally softened in boiling water and then mashed up and applied as a paste or poultice to the affected areas to kill the worms and expel them from the skin.
>
> PLANT CHEMICALS
>
> Novel plant chemicals have been found in erva tostão, including flavonoids, steroids, and alkaloids, many of which drive its documented biological activities. The novel alkaloids found in erva tostão have been documented with immune modulating effects. In one study, the alkaloid fraction of the root evidenced a dramatic effect in reducing an elevation of cortisol levels under stressful conditions (cortisol is an inflammatory chemical produced in the body in an immune response). Simultaneously, the alkaloids (and a whole root extract) also prevented a drop in immune system performance indicating an adaptogenic immune modulation activity, which might suggest it could be helpful in preventing adrenal exhaustion.
>
> The main plant chemicals in this plant include: alanine, arachidic acid, aspartic acid, behenic acid, boeravinone A thru F, boerhaavic acid, borhavine, borhavone, campesterol, daucosterol, ecdysone, flavones, galactose, glutamic acid, glutamine, glycine, hentriacontane, heptadecyclic acid, histidine, hypoxanthine, liriodendrin, oleaic acid, oxalic acid, palmitic acid, proline, punarnavine, serine, sitosterols, stearic acid, stigmasterol, syringaresinol, threonine, triacontan, ursolic acid, and valine.
>
> BIOLOGICAL ACTIVITIES AND CLINICAL RESEARCH
>
> Erva tostão has long been used in traditional medicine systems as a diuretic (to increase urination) for many types of kidney and urinary disorders. The diuretic action of erva tostão has been studied and validated by scientists in several studies. Researchers showed that low dosages (10–300 mg per kg of body weight) produced strong diuretic effects, while higher dosages (more than 300 mg/kg) produced the opposite effect—reducing urine output. Later research verified these diuretic and antidiuretic properties, as well as the beneficial kidney and renal effects of erva tostão in animals and humans. Research indicates that a root extract can increase urine output by as much as 100 percent in a twenty-four-hour period at dosages as low as 10 mg per kg of body weight.
>
> The worldwide use of erva tostão for various liver complaints and disorders was validated in three separate studies. These indicated that a root extract provided beneficial effects in animals by protecting the liver from numerous introduced toxins and even repairing chemical-induced liver and kidney damage. In other clinical studies with animals, erva tostão extracts demonstrated smooth muscle and skeletal muscle stimulant activities in frogs and guinea pigs; anti-inflammatory actions in rats; hypotensive actions in dogs as well as in vitro hypotensive actions; antispasmodic actions in frogs and guinea pigs; analgesic activities in mice; and antiamebic actions in rats. In two studies with monkeys, a root extract was reported to reduce bleeding and uterine hemorrhaging commonly associated with wearing contraceptive IUDs. The traditional use of erva tostão for convulsions was verified by scientists in two studies, demonstrating that a root extract provided anticonvulsant actions in mice. In vitro testing of erva tostão confirmed its antibacterial properties against gonorrhea (another traditional use), as well as Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Salmonella and Staphylococcus. It was also shown to possess antiviral actions against several viral plant pathogens.
>
> CURRENT PRACTICAL USES
>
> Many of these animal studies help to explain erva tostão’s long history of different uses in natural medicine. Clearly, it has played an important role in the herbal practitioner’s medicine chest of natural remedies for many maladies in both South America and India. It is an effective natural remedy, especially for the liver and kidneys, which is deserving of much more attention and use here in the United States. Several research groups studying various biological activities of erva tostão have shown the safety of the plant — indicating no toxicity of root and leaf extracts taken orally by mice at up to 5 g per kg of body weight. Another group of scientists studied the effects of erva tostão on pregnant rats and reported that it had no abortive effects and no embryotoxic or teratogenic (fetal death or birth defect) activity.
>
>
> ERVA TOSTÃO PLANT SUMMARY
> Main Preparation Method: decoction or capsules
>
> Main Actions (in order):
> hepatotonic (tones, balances, strengthens the liver), antilithic (prevents or eliminates kidney stones), hepatoprotective (liver protector), diuretic, menstrual stimulant
>
> Main Uses:
>
> 1. for liver disorders (jaundice, hepatitis, cirrhosis, anemia, flukes, detoxification, chemical injury, etc)
> 2. for gallbladder disorders (stones, sluggish function, low bile production, emptying, and detoxification)
> 3. for kidney and urinary tract disorders (stones, nephritis, urethritis, infections, renal insufficiency/injury, etc)
> 4. for menstrual disorders (pain, cramps, excessive bleeding, uterine spasms, water retention)
>
> 5. to tone, balance, and strengthen the adrenals (and for adrenal exhaustion and excess cortisol production
>
> Properties/Actions Documented by Research:
> ACE-inhibitor (typically lowers blood pressure), analgesic (pain-reliever), anti-inflammatory, antiamebic, antibacterial, anticonvulsant, antihemorrhagic (reduces bleeding), antispasmodic, antiviral, liver and gallbladder bile stimulant, diuretic, hepatoprotective (liver protector), hepatotonic (tones, balances, strengthens the liver), hypotensive (lowers blood pressure), immune modulator (selectively lowers overactive immune cells)
>
> Other Properties/Actions Documented by Traditional Use:
> antihistamine, antilithic (prevents or eliminates kidney stones), aperient (mild laxative), blood cleanser, cardiotonic (tones, balances, strengthens the heart), carminative (expels gas), detoxifier, digestive stimulant, kidney tonic (tones, balances, strengthens the kidneys), lactagogue (promotes milk flow), menstrual stimulant, uterine stimulant, vermifuge (expels worms)
>
> Cautions: It is contraindicated in some heart diseases; it has hypotensive (lowers blood pressure), cardiac depressant, and ACE-inhibitor effects.
>
>
> Traditional Preparation: For a general liver tonic, 1 cup of a whole herb or root decoction or 2 ml of a 4:1 tincture is taken once daily. This same dosage is taken two to three times daily for various liver and kidney disorders. For a natural diuretic, 500 mg of the root in capsules or tablets can be taken twice daily. As a menstrual aid (to reduce menstrual pain, cramping, and excessive bleeding) 1 cup of a whole herb or root decoction or 1–2 g in tablets or capsules can be taken two to three times daily as needed. See Traditional Herbal Remedies Preparation Methods page if necessary for definitions.
>
> Contraindications:
>
> * Both in vivo and in vitro studies have demonstrated the hypotensive properties of erva tostão. Those with heart problems such as low blood pressure, or those taking medications to lower their blood pressure should not use this plant without the advice and supervision of a qualified health care practitioner as blood pressure levels should be monitored closely.
> * This herb has also demonstrated myocardial depressant activity and should therefore not be taken by anyone with heart failure or those taking heart depressant medications unless under the direction and care of a qualified health care practitioner.
>
> Drug Interactions: Erva tostão may interfere with prescription diuretics and may potentiate cardiac depressant medications. Erva tostão has been documented in one in vitro study to have angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibition action. Therefore, this plant may potentiate ACE inhibitor drugs for high blood pressure.
> In one study, an oral dosage of 500 mg/kg (leaf extract) in mice inhibited barbiturates and decreased sleeping time. Therefore, the use of this plant may decrease the effect of barbiturates.
>
>
> WORLDWIDE ETHNOMEDICAL USES
> Brazil for albuminuria, beri-beri, bile insufficiency, cystitis, edema, gallbladder problems, gallstones, gonorrhea, guinea worms, hepatitis, hypertension, jaundice, kidney disorders, kidney stones, liver disorders, liver support, nephritis, renal disorders, sclerosis (liver), snakebite, spleen (enlarged), urinary disorders, urinary retention
> Guatemala for erysipelas, guinea worms
> India for abdominal pain, anemia, ascites, asthma, blood purification, cancer, cataracts, childbirth, cholera, constipation, cough, debility, digestive sluggishness, dropsy, dyspepsia, edema, eye problems, fever, gonorrhea, guinea worms, heart ailments, heart disease, hemorrhages (childbirth), hemorrhages (thoracic), hemorrhoids, inflammation (internal), internal parasites, jaundice, kidney disorders, kidney stones, lactation aid, liver disorders, liver support, menstrual disorders, renal insufficiency, rheumatism, snakebite, spleen (enlarged), urinary disorders, weakness, and as a diuretic and expectorant
> Iran for edema, gonorrhea, hives, intestinal gas, jaundice, joint pain, lumbago, nephritis, and as an appetite stimulant, diuretic and expectorant
> Nigeria for abscesses, asthma, boils, convulsions, epilepsy, fever, guinea worms, and as an expectorant and laxative
> West Africa for abortion, guinea worms, menstrual irregularities, and as an aphrodisiac
> Elsewhere for childbirth, guinea worms, jaundice, sterility, yaws
>
>
>
> The above text has been printed from The Healing Power of Rainforest Herbs by Leslie Taylor, copyrighted © 2005
> All rights reserved. No part of this document may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or by any information storage or retrieval system, including websites, without written permission.
>
> A complete Technical Data Report is available for this plant.
>
>
>
> † The statements contained herein have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. The information contained in this plant database file is intended for education, entertainment and information purposes only. This information is not intended to be used to diagnose, prescribe or replace proper medical care. The plant described herein is not intended to treat, cure, diagnose, mitigate or prevent any disease. Please refer to our Conditions of Use for using this plant database file and web site.
>
>
>
Posted by world citizen on May 5, 2005, at 11:48:45
In reply to Re: EXTENSIVE information on boerhaavia » world citizen, posted by Elroy on May 5, 2005, at 6:55:03
Elroy, I found this at Webvitamins.com. I like that they "say" it doestn't have heavy metals and yet it contains "talc" which is lypically contaminated with lead. This stuff sounds very good to me for various reasons any input from any of the other e-searchers would be appreciated.
World CitzenJarrow Formulas
Stimuliv 100T
Brand Jarrow Formulas
Form Tablet
Size 100 Tablets
Serving Size 1 tablet
Servings 50
Product No. JAR TF46 11005
UPC Code 624917110050
Suitable
for VegetariansSave 34%
Retail Price: $12.95
Your Price: $8.60
Description Ayurveda of the "Science of Life" is the oldest repository of medical wisdom. Ayurved Formulas combines this knowledge with the scientific methodology (identification, extraction and purification) to produce products of the highest quality, efficacy and safety available anywhere.
All products are within USP heavy metal guidelines
HPLC Quality Assured
Supplement Facts
Amount Per Serving %DV
Andrographis Paniculata 200mg *
Phyllanthus 100mg *
Eclipta Alba 100mg *
Picrorhiza Kurroa 100mg *
Boerhaavia Diffusa 50mg *
Berberis Aristata 25mg *
Neem Leaf 50mg *
Solanum Nigram 25mg *
Tephrosia Purpurea 25mg *
Ipomoea Turpethum 50mg *
*Daily Value (DV) not establishedSuggested Use Take 1 or 2 tablets twice a day, or as directed by a qualified health care physician.
Other Ingredients Gum Tragecanth, Talc and Silica.
Does Not Contain Does not contain any other ingredients
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 5, 2005, at 18:02:03
In reply to lowers cortisol? BOERHAAVIA, posted by world citizen on May 4, 2005, at 18:07:12
> I found a lot of impressive studies (most in India) showing the efficacy of this herb for several conditions. I initially found it in the Blood Type Diet book
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by JLx on May 8, 2005, at 11:03:55
In reply to RE: DLPA » world citizen, posted by KaraS on March 13, 2005, at 23:02:30
> I've been trying some accupressure (tapping) to help relieve anxiety with some mixed results. I really have to practice it a lot more to judge it definitively. I've been meaning to meditate regularly but haven't been disciplined enough. I've often found that focussing on my breath has made me more anxious and so I've been putting off dealing with it or trying to work through that.
>
> KBoy, I can relate to that. I've been trying to meditate for years and rarely manage it. One "how to" book I have talked about different forms of meditation and suggested simply dropping your gaze downward while keeping your head normally upright. The effect, which I find fascinating, is an automatic deep breath.
I have also tried acupressure via the book "Instant Emotional Healing" and can't make up my mind if it works or not. Since motivation is always a factor, I wonder if I feel better because I've become motivated enough to do it in the first place. There have been times though when I was sure it helped with acute anxiety.
I've also tried EFT via Dr. Mercola's website and am unsure about that too.
JL
Posted by KaraS on May 8, 2005, at 22:44:53
In reply to RE: Meditation, acupressure » KaraS, posted by JLx on May 8, 2005, at 11:03:55
> > I've been trying some accupressure (tapping) to help relieve anxiety with some mixed results. I really have to practice it a lot more to judge it definitively. I've been meaning to meditate regularly but haven't been disciplined enough. I've often found that focussing on my breath has made me more anxious and so I've been putting off dealing with it or trying to work through that.
> >
> > K
>
> Boy, I can relate to that. I've been trying to meditate for years and rarely manage it. One "how to" book I have talked about different forms of meditation and suggested simply dropping your gaze downward while keeping your head normally upright. The effect, which I find fascinating, is an automatic deep breath.
>
> I have also tried acupressure via the book "Instant Emotional Healing" and can't make up my mind if it works or not. Since motivation is always a factor, I wonder if I feel better because I've become motivated enough to do it in the first place. There have been times though when I was sure it helped with acute anxiety.
>
> I've also tried EFT via Dr. Mercola's website and am unsure about that too.
>
> JL
Same here. I felt sometimes that it helped and other times, it didn't. I had the feeling that if I saw a professional to make sure that i was doing it all right (hitting the right points and doing some of the other things suggested) that it might make a big difference. I haven't been doing it at all lately. I just didn't have the motivation to continue it. I downloaded an EFT manual and looked it over but haven't really pursued that either.Thanks for the tip on meditating. I'll have to try that the next time I can get myself to meditate.
K
Posted by tealady on May 10, 2005, at 3:09:18
In reply to RE: Pheochromocytoma (and Anxiety) » tealady, posted by Elroy on April 9, 2005, at 21:31:11
Hi Elroy,
Sorry I musta missed this. (my indicators don't turn off for some reason). Thanks for sharing all of this:-) Hope your feeling at least a bit better at present and they found something easy to fix!..just included your post as its been so long..my reply below
_________________________________________More info to previous answer.... info on Pheos and Pheo symptoms from 5 other sites:
QUOTE:
Primary Symptoms for Pheo: Many clinical signs can be present, including paroxysms of hypertension (80%), diaphoresis (71%), palpitation with or without tachycardia (64%), pallor (40%), nausea with or without vomiting (42%), tremor (31%), weakness or exhaustion (28%), nervousness or anxiety (22%), epigastric pain (22%), chest pain (19%), dyspnea (19%), flushing or warmth (18%), numbness or paresthesia (11%), blurred vision (11%), tightness of throat, dizziness, convulsion, neck or shoulder pain, extremities pain, flank pain, tinnitus, dysarthria, and unsteadiness. END QUOTE
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic1788.htmQUOTE: Some doctors feel that the most common symptoms of Pheochromocytoma are headache, palpitations, and excessive and inappropriate perspiration. I feel that in this case, the doctors are ignoring the anxiety part of the illness which I personally feel is the most frightening one. Along with the anxiety, I experience tremors and uncontrollable shaking, nausea, weakness, chest pain like angina, and abdominal pain. Sometime I am flushed, other times I am extremely pale. I generally find myself looking at my hands, because they feel numb, and my palms are usually strangely mottled and sweaty... I have been told that these symptoms of nervousness and anxiety, nausea and chest pain, et cetera are rare. Yet every "Pheochromocytoma" friend I have talked with has these symptoms. END QUOTE
(Amen brother!)
http://members.aol.com/threepeb/QUOTE: Pheochromocytomas are a rare cause of hypertension, being the underlying cause of only about .01% of cases of high blood pressure. The manifestations of pheochromocytoma are varied and often not particularly specific and it is easy to understand why such a rare tumor may not be diagnosed immediately by even the most astute physician. Headache, perspiration or palpitation are symptoms found in 90% of such patients. Anxiety, tremor, high blood sugar, nausea, thoracic or abdominal pains, weakness, weight loss, shortness of breath, visual disturbances and heat/cold intolerance are other occasional symptoms. Patients can also sometimes present with confusion or psychosis, constipation, tingling sensations (in hands/feet), seizures, or high blood counts as well as Raynaud's phenomenon. Ironically, patients can also have a slow heart beat (bradycardia) or hypotension, particularly when standing up suddenly. END QUOTE
http://www.fitzgeraldmd.com/news/archives/000046.htmlQUOTE: Pheochromocytomas are usually benign. They may occur in or near the adrenal glands, or anywhere along the sympathetic nervous system roughly from the base of the skull to the bladder. The most apparent symptom, caused by the increased secretion of epinephrine and norepinephrine, is hypertension, or high blood pressure. This hypertension may be constant or intermittent. Attacks may occur every few months or several times daily, and typically last less than five minutes. Physical and emotional stresses can initiate an attack. During severe attacks, patients may experience headache, sweating, anxiety/apprehension, palpation, tremor, pallor or flushing of the face, nausea and vomiting, pain in the chest and abdomen. There may be a tingling, burning, or crawling sensation on the skin of arms and/or legs and/or presence of urinary difficulties. END QUOTE
http://www.vhl.org/newsletter/vhl1999/99dapheo.htmQUOTE: Different people can tolerate different amounts of stress before becoming ill. Some people are more sensitive to stress and are more likely to develop anxiety disorders. This can be caused either by genetic predispositions to anxiety, or by previous (particularly early childhood) exposure to certain stressful circumstances. Certain tumors of the adrenal gland (pheochromocytoma), may cause anxiety and tension by causing the release of cortisol, a stress hormone (this condition is rare). END QUOTE
http://www.pnt-200.com/anxiety.htmlWon't even bother listing the symptoms shown here: http://www.pheochromocytoma.org/sys-tmpl/frequentquestions/
So I don't have the "severe blood pressure" problems, but I go through these lists and find the following listed symptoms are ones that I do have:
- Headaches (Increasing intensity, sporadic, may last couple minutes to half an hour)
- Nausea (Waves of nausea – worse in evenings)
- Weight loss or gain (Initial significant weight loss and then fluctuates)
- Hypertension (fluctuates - from very good to moderately bad)
- Hyperglycemia (fluctuates – mild levels)
- Palpitations (occasional)
- Vision disturbance (very, very occasional “blurring)
- Orthostatic hypotension (Occasional – mild)
- Bradycardia (occasional, mild)
- Clammy skin / Cold skin (More primarily cold skin, cold intolerance – icy cold feet) / Raynaud's phenomenon symptoms
- Paresthesia - tingling, prickling, numbness or burning sensations(Hands/feet, constant - often very strong - Neurontin helps quite a bit)
- Extremities pain
- Nervousness - Anxiety (severe if not on Xanax) - Panic - Feeling of impending doom
- Tremor (occasional)
- Rapid pulse (fluctuates)
- Flushing
- Highly elevated cortisol levels
- Abdominal pain (more generally a tenderness- sometimes pain)
- Flank pain (more recent symptom, often severe)
- Constipation (Moderate, occasional - more like sluggish bowels)
- Presence of urinary difficultiesAnd all of these came on within a 2 - 3 week period immediately following the onset of severe anxiety that came on in June of 2004.
The only symptom that I have that does NOT have a direct link to a Pheop tumor is the hypogonadism... and highly elevated cortisol can often cause that.
http://www.endocrinology.med.ucla.edu/cushing%27s_syndrome.htm
http://www.gsdl.com/home/assessments/malehormone/appguide/index3.html
http://www.google.com/answers/threadview?id=450553Soooo......
Still waiting on test results.
And hoping that it IS a Pheo... just so something can start getting done with this problem!
__________________________________________________Gee Elroy ..it sounds pretty bad. I sure hope they can find something that is easy to fix.
Just the past 3 or so months I've been getting a few of those symptoms too and I'm suspecting maybe my adrenals are spluttering in starting again ...at least if feels like I'm going high in adrenaline/noradrenaline and cortisol to match occasionally.
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=67206.1 (why I think maybe my adrenals are jumping about, but I've really no idea what is going on or even if my adrenals are jumping in and out ..like a car engine spluttering instead of starting smoothly. It does appear to make my blood pressure jump about though when I try to cut down on fluid intake.I sure don't get the Headache, perspiration or palpitation symptoms, although my blood pressure is jumping all around and has risen about 50 points or so ..but nowhere near the range mentioned.
I don't get the tremor, high blood sugar, nausea, thoracic or abdominal pains either..although back in Febraury I monitored,myself on my Mum's blood sugar tester and my blood sugar kept going up each time..started at 4 , then 6, then 7, then 8, then 9...then I decided I didn't want to know anymore :-)
I was having accupuncture to try to get my adrenals working better, I used to be too low :-) Maybe I overdid it ;-)
I do get the (and it has been happening some for a long time, some only since I went on thyroid meds..like the anxiety and paresthesia)
Cold skin (More primarily cold skin, cold intolerance – icy cold feet) / Raynaud's phenomenon symptomsPalpitations (occasional)
- Vision disturbance (very, very occasional “blurring)
- Orthostatic hypotension (Occasional – mild)
- Bradycardia (occasional, mild)Paresthesia - tingling, prickling, numbness or burning sensations(Hands/feet, constant - often very strong - Neurontin helps quite a bit)
- anxiety..and wake in night sometimes and can't get enough oxygen..hyperventilating in sleep etc- weight loss or gain...but I'm sure its water weight via the ADH stuff
and no headaches any more..used to have really bad migraines
anyway I understand a little so that lets me sympathize better maybe :-)
I guess I need to try to talk someone into cortisol testing again, sigh. I don't fel up to facing that..the docs , not the tests :-)
---------------------------Sooooo.....
Have you got your test results? And did they show anything helpful? (fingers crossed)tea
Posted by tealady on May 10, 2005, at 3:28:20
In reply to RE: Meditation, acupressure » JLx, posted by KaraS on May 8, 2005, at 22:44:53
. I've been trying to meditate for years and rarely manage it. One "how to" book I have talked about different forms of meditation and suggested simply dropping your gaze downward while keeping your head normally upright. The effect, which I find fascinating, is an automatic deep breath
Hi JL,
I havn't tried to meditate by myself..but always thought it would be a great idea. I just know I need,at least begin with, to be in a group or something. I've done a little of that in a group, and scared myself a little too..so I prefer to be in a group, or with an expert. I think I'm one of those people who pick up things..
So far I haven't found anything close by.
I read Mercola's accupressure articles but never got around to trying. I used to try it for migraines, but only had a little relief maybe."One "how to" book I have talked about different forms of meditation and suggested simply dropping your gaze downward while keeping your head normally upright. The effect, which I find fascinating, is an automatic deep breath"
That works!..and it must fit in with our instinctive sign language as well. You know how they talk about looking someone in the eye..guess when your anxious about something maybe you instinctively drop your eyes. That said, anyone can overcome that one :-)
I won't be around much for a while..2nd last week or uni, so I have to start studying I guess.
Didn't go today..been getting a bit stressed lately.Twas nice to "hear" from you again and know your still hanging in there, hoping and trying :-)
Jan
Posted by tealady on May 10, 2005, at 5:29:17
In reply to RE: Meditation, acupressure » KaraS, posted by tealady on May 10, 2005, at 3:28:20
Posted by JLx on May 11, 2005, at 16:26:21
In reply to RE: Meditation, acupressure » JLx, posted by KaraS on May 8, 2005, at 22:44:53
> Thanks for the tip on meditating. I'll have to try that the next time I can get myself to meditate.
>
> KThat wasn't a tip on meditating, that WAS the meditation. :) The book I have used that as an example that meditation doesn't always have to be this complicated deal, but can also be something simple and brief like that, or like walking-as-meditation.
JL
Posted by JLx on May 11, 2005, at 16:58:05
In reply to RE: Meditation, acupressure » KaraS, posted by tealady on May 10, 2005, at 3:28:20
> I havn't tried to meditate by myself..but always thought it would be a great idea. I just know I need,at least begin with, to be in a group or something. I've done a little of that in a group, and scared myself a little too..so I prefer to be in a group, or with an expert. I think I'm one of those people who pick up things..
> So far I haven't found anything close by.Hmm...never have done it in a group. It was in the news recently that Transcendental Meditation can help you live longer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1474535,00.html I wish I could psych myself up to do it.
> I read Mercola's accupressure articles but never got around to trying. I used to try it for migraines, but only had a little relief maybe.I like the idea. THe book I mentioned was quite interesting. Mercola's EFT is easier than the book I have. I think, if nothing else, the affirmations that you do with the tapping are helpful.
> "One "how to" book I have talked about different forms of meditation and suggested simply dropping your gaze downward while keeping your head normally upright. The effect, which I find fascinating, is an automatic deep breath"
>
> That works!..and it must fit in with our instinctive sign language as well. You know how they talk about looking someone in the eye..guess when your anxious about something maybe you instinctively drop your eyes. That said, anyone can overcome that one :-)Hmmm....interesting observation. I think it's amazing how that deep breath is just automatic. That makes it seem more relaxing to me than if I set out to think first "deep breath".
> I won't be around much for a while..2nd last week or uni, so I have to start studying I guess.
> Didn't go today..been getting a bit stressed lately.I admire your willingness to study this stuff. :)
> Twas nice to "hear" from you again and know your still hanging in there, hoping and trying :-)
>
> JanI ordered some stuff from iherb on Monday and got it yesterday! I'm going to be taking a new fish oil, this one high EPA to DHA ratio, of 5:1. I have some high DHA and when I found myself reluctant to take it, concluded that it didn't feel as good as the regular. That's what prompted me to try this. Not sure how much to take though.
I also am going to try NADH as I haven't yet. Very few things rev me up, so this will be interesting too.
I'm fooling with amino acids again, as well as TMG, MSM and increasing folic acid, and remembering to take B12. I'd slacked off on those things but reading back some of my own posts on that old thread motivated me.
I also read with great interest ElaineP's story on the Vit D thread. I didn't stick with my Vit D supplementation then as I intended, but now am more inspired. I've been getting some sun and taking 2,000 IU of Vit D as well. But I ordered the Bio-whatsit brand with the 1000 IU drops, rec'd it today, and will increase to 4,000/day I think.
Yes, as you say, hoping and trying. :) Actually, I think if I could just find a decent job, have that routine and could start to address my financial woes, I might have the potential not to be depressed at all.
JL
Posted by Elroy on May 14, 2005, at 22:14:51
In reply to Re: Arghhh » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2005, at 8:31:38
Lar,
Thanks for info. That's strange as my psych doc wanted me to start out with just the Selegiline - and then only at like 1/2 tablet a day and work up from there as "selegiline also enhances production of NE and - due to past bad experiences with increasing NE too quickly - we want to approach this very slowly"..... That's paraphrasing her somewhat but basically the gist of it. The approach was (is) to start out working very slowly up to 5mg of selegiline twice a day and then start adding in the DLPA.
BTW, when efforts at trying Effexor and Cymbalta were tried, extreme "burning urethra" type pains (similiar to, but not quite like, prostatitis). I understand that this is not an extremely rare side effect with many men who take these SSNRIs. Do you know what is gonig on that causes this side effect?
Thanks.
Elroy
X
X
X
X
> > Thanks for info. That would make sense. Right now primary objective with selegiline is to get norepinehprine levels back up into mid normal ranges, so tyrosine should be just as effective for those purposes, eh?
>
> No, not on a gram for gram basis. Think of the path to NE being like a limited access highway.
>
> You're starting right at the origin of that highway, and there's a lot of traffic. The very first exit goes to PEA, and all of the D-phenylalanine and a small chunk of the L-phenylalanine gets off at that exit, but none of the tyrosine does.
>
> Then there's a toll booth. The tyrosine gets to bypass the booth, but the L-PA has to pay, by getting turned into tyrosine. So, past this booth, the whole highway is filled with tyrosine.
>
> Up ahead, there's a sign "Through traffic to dopamine, left two lanes. All other traffic, right lane." Some tyrosine gets off the highway, to become thyroid hormone and other stuff.
>
> The through traffic faces another toll booth, but all of the tyrosine has to stop. It comes out of the booth as L-DOPA, direct precursor to dopamine (and NE thereafter).
>
> If you started that highway with one gram each of d-,l-phenylalanine (DLPA), l-phenylalanine (L-PA), or tyrosine, the yield in L-DOPA (traffic still on the through highway at the last toll booth) would be about: 30%, 65%, and 85%, respectively (and with huge assumptions about muscles not building any protein during this trip, etc.).
>
> Of that same one gram dose, yield of PEA would be about 60%, 15%, and < 1%, respectively. Tyrosine can back-convert to phenylalanine, so I'm not setting the latter yield to zero.
>
> If NE is your target, tyrosine is your best bullet.
>
> > Also, I know that selegiline converts to dopamine and that it's the dopamine that actually makes the conversion into NE.
>
> I don't see that selegiline converts to dopamine.
>
> http://www.selegiline.com/refs/index.html
>
> Select the one that says "dopamine"
>
> Lots of other great references in that list, and in ones that come up below individual references themselves.
>
> There's another problem with your assumption. Providing a ready supply of NE is one thing. Enhancing its effect is quite another. NE isn't just floating around the brain. It is stored in special little containers called synaptosomes. If you want the effect of NE, you've got to enhance its release somehow, which means causing those synaptosomes to release their contents.
>
> All told, indirect effects of selegiline might well do that, but I'm not even going to try to figure out a mechanism for it.
>
> You're always back to the final test.....doing the experiment. Try the drug, and see how you feel, with and without DLPA and/or tyrosine.
>
> > Question: Does anyone know if there's any particular supplement needed to enhance that conversion (B6, Vitamin C, etc., etc.)???
> >
> > Thanks for any info.
>
> General core supps, in any case. B-complex, C, zinc, selenium, etc. should be part of the routine intake. You *already* need them, not just for this specific purpose.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 9:31:20
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc, posted by world citizen on April 28, 2005, at 12:43:20
>
> Hey Larry, do you have access to any live music where you live, specifically music that you would find appealing? If my memory serves me correctly you're the one with the chronically acute pain in your arm, right?Sorry it's been so long since I posted to this thread. I've been skimming the board, and working up from the bottom. This time, I'm starting at the top
It's my left arm that's giving me problems. I fell from a height, and my upper arm bone (humerus) crushed the head of one of my forearm bones, the radius. In effect, the joint started to "let go", to bend sideways, with one side being crushed (radius), the other side under tension (ulna). The tension (stretching) on the ulnar side damaged the nerve. So, I have musculo-skeletal pain on the exterior side of the elbow, and neuropathic pain on the interior side (and especially into my hand). The joint also locks under load (ice-pick pain, sufficiently intense to make me pass out, sometimes).
Worker's comp has forced me back to work, and even simple things aggravate the pain. I'm still waiting for a surgical *date*! It's nearly four months since the surgeon decided to operate, and I haven't even been booked yet. I fell January 11, 2004. Over 16 months ago.
> If I'm on track with this and you're the one that's been "winged" what are they doing about it-besides getting finger callouses from all the energetic paper shuffling? The reason I'm asking this is due to the fact that I believe that everyone that has the ablility to be creative a) owes it to the planet to share it,"The musician's art is among those arts worthy of the highest praise, and it moveth the hearts of all who grieve." ('Abdul-Baha, Selections from the Writings of 'Abdul-Baha), and b) as my testimonial in my previous post stated it's a GREAT source of endorphins.
The ulnar nerve injury has severely affected the use of the ring and small fingers of my left hand. I can't manage the fingering on the neck of a guitar.
> Even if you can't play the bass (at this time) I heartily encourage you to go listen to live music that you LOVE!!!!! We ALL know that even HEARING music that one loves has a great effect on neurochemicals!
Not much happening in that regard, hereabouts. I don't drink (I'm "in recovery"), so bars are not a good playground for me.
There are free concerts with fireworks all summer long, on the waterfront (20 minute drive), so I plan to catch a few of those.
> I find Ambient music to be exceptional in this way. I found an interesting book at the Library called "the Mozart Effect", by Don Campbell. Pain-acute, chronic and otherwise-is adressed as is anxiety.
I'm just concerned with managing the state of pain to permit any sort of activity. I am clearly between a rock and a hard place.
> Larry, what is your "day job"? I realize you may have shared this in a previous post but it may have been during one of my cruises "in the sea of remoteness", otherwise known as acute self-involvement! Feel free to "decline to state".
> World CitizenI am currently working on creating a tractor-trailer driver-training program. I fell off a truck, initially. The trucking company was forced to find "comparable work", and I was forced to do it, under our Worker's Comp legislation.
It just so happens that I already was a certified tractor-trailer driver-trainer (in another life?), and I have also written my own training programs. My boss is absolutely thrilled with what I can do. Serendipity? Silver lining? Who knows. It unfortunately "uses me up". There's really not much left of my energy or cognition when I get done with the day job. It's been nine years since I last was able to work full time, and this was forced on me. Time will tell, if I succeed or not.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 9:43:59
In reply to EXTENSIVE information on boerhaavia, posted by world citizen on May 4, 2005, at 23:13:55
I'm not too impressed by what I found on the net.
It does have cortisol suppression activities, but it also has a profound impact on the pancreas, stimulating insulin release. This could lead to hypoglycemia.
It is also, apparently, good for insomnia.
The other thing is, in traditional medicine, it is never taken for more than a week.
In other words, it is an acute treatment, not a maintenance medication.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 9:51:27
In reply to Re: Arghhh » Larry Hoover, posted by Elroy on May 14, 2005, at 22:14:51
> Lar,
>
> Thanks for info. That's strange as my psych doc wanted me to start out with just the Selegiline - and then only at like 1/2 tablet a day and work up from there as "selegiline also enhances production of NE and - due to past bad experiences with increasing NE too quickly - we want to approach this very slowly"..... That's paraphrasing her somewhat but basically the gist of it. The approach was (is) to start out working very slowly up to 5mg of selegiline twice a day and then start adding in the DLPA.Have you started yet?
> BTW, when efforts at trying Effexor and Cymbalta were tried, extreme "burning urethra" type pains (similiar to, but not quite like, prostatitis). I understand that this is not an extremely rare side effect with many men who take these SSNRIs. Do you know what is gonig on that causes this side effect?
>
> Thanks.
>
> ElroyJust a guess, but.....
The sphincters that control urine release are sensitive to norepinephrine. They tighten up under higher NE levels. I suspect that the burning is because your bladder muscles are forcing uring through contricted sphincters. That feels like burning.
The pain stops as soon as the urine flow pressure stops, right? Maybe a little "afterglow", but the intense part of the pain is only during micturition?
Lar
Posted by World Citizen on May 21, 2005, at 13:25:39
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc » world citizen, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 9:31:20
Hi Larry.I'm SOOOO sorry your medical "care" has been soooo freaking deplorable! Is there any organizations that can advocate on your behalf-nag paper-pushers, consult with the surgeon, I don't know maybe contact your local SENATOR OR CONGRESSPERSON! It would appear that "the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective" and there are people getting paid to do a whole lot of nothing! If you went to the ER would that induce any action toward your entering the OR? This kind of stuff REALLY pisses me off!!!!!!!! The unnecessary suffering of human beings! (if this were a Beavis and Butthead episode Butthead would be slapping me away from this tangental precipice! I guess I'll have to manage on my own!) Okay, aside from the suggestions mentioned above I'll definately be saying prayers for healing for you.
I think maybe it's freaking time you consulted an attorney about this, it reeks of malpractice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
World Citizen!
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 14:12:55
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc, posted by World Citizen on May 21, 2005, at 13:25:39
>
> Hi Larry.
>
> I'm SOOOO sorry your medical "care" has been soooo freaking deplorable! Is there any organizations that can advocate on your behalf-nag paper-pushers, consult with the surgeon, I don't know maybe contact your local SENATOR OR CONGRESSPERSON! It would appear that "the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective" and there are people getting paid to do a whole lot of nothing! If you went to the ER would that induce any action toward your entering the OR? This kind of stuff REALLY pisses me off!!!!!!!! The unnecessary suffering of human beings! (if this were a Beavis and Butthead episode Butthead would be slapping me away from this tangental precipice! I guess I'll have to manage on my own!) Okay, aside from the suggestions mentioned above I'll definately be saying prayers for healing for you.
>
> I think maybe it's freaking time you consulted an attorney about this, it reeks of malpractice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> World Citizen!I appreciate the indignation. I really do.
You can imagine that there have been numerous steps, and that I have simplified things in my discussion of events. You could not even imagine the levels of bureaucracy and incompetency that I have endured.
It is the system that we have, in Ontario.
I am in close discussions with my employer, the poor bastard. Although legally we're in adversarial positions, we're working together to try and minimize the effective cost of this injury. A simple loss of footing on an icy truck, and it will cost him over a quarter of a million dollars in extra assessment (higher bills) over the lifetime of the claim. This is in addition to the weekly payroll tax that he pays (9% of all gross earnings). Outrageous doesn't *begin* to cover it. My lost wages are only about 10% of the costs accruing. 40% is overhead, i.e. bureaucratic BS. Double that, if you consider that nearly all the medical costs to date are the Worker's Comp bureaucrats seeking medical documentation and repetitive examinations.
Example. I have to make an appointment to get my narcotic presecription refilled. I did so last week. The very day after that appointment, I got a form in the mail to get my doctor to fill out. An update form, that will look like all the twenty others that have been submitted previously. "No change in symptoms. Waiting for surgery." But, that will require another appointment (at $225 a pop). And, two weeks later, another appointment for the next month's supply of drugs. Totally asinine, and unnecessary.
And, it is the bureaucracy itself that has led to the lengthy delays. I knew last March that I needed surgery (my orthopedist said so), but I had to see their orthopedist (January of this year).
Who benefits from all this?
Anyway. In the meantime, I manage with oxycodone and gabapentin.
Lar
Posted by Elroy on May 22, 2005, at 19:57:28
In reply to Re: Arghhh » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 9:51:27
No, the "burning urethra pain" does NOT occur when I am urinating - or at least isn't any worse. When I have it - some days very mild and some days just moderate and other days quite severe - it is an "all-the-time" type of pain. If anything, it "sometimes'" eases up during urination. I find that my urinations essions are increased (anywhere from very slightly to quite a bit) on those higher intensity days.
If anything, it seems to have a lot to do with how my anxiety levels are. If my anxiety levels are very mellow, then I barely notice the "burning urethra" type of pain. When anxiety levels are high then the intensity is a lot worse. Anyway, the pain is there prior to urinating (may or may not slow down in intensity during urinating) and is right back after urinating. Urologist has said that it isn't a bacterial prostatitis. Have even started wondering if it might be a candida type "infection" prostatitis....
Also, my recent blood work showed that my dopamine levels were somewhat low, that my epinephrine levels were definitely low and that my NE levels were EXTREMELY low (well below normal on the reference range). So there doesn't seem to be a case of "higher NE levels"... unless I have very little serum NE as it's all being used up in the brain and other receptor sites doing "evil things"... or that my body has become so adjusted to extremely low levels that any "upward bump" of NE causes symptoms???
Yes, I started the Selegiline and can do 2.5 grams like every other day. Anything higher than that right now bumps up the anxiety and also the various physical symptoms... Seems that anything that is "stimulating" (even such supps as SAMe) cause this effect, sometimes lightly, but enough to be noticed. Tyrosine for example. DLPA very definitely. Etc.
ALSO.... just recently read some online info that 5HTP - and possibly also Tryptophan - actually cause increases in cortisol levels (as does Prozac and most other SSRIs). Do you know anything about that?
Speaking of that (cortisol), I read on a Cushings support site / board that several of their posters report UTI type problems and one guy wrote in that his Endo had told him that EXCESS cortisol in the system is "as toxic as battery acid" and that it "attacks the sensitive mucous membrances" of the body and that the urethra, etc. are prime targets for it's action as the cortisol is eventually voided through the urine....
Leroy
X
X
X
X
> > Lar,
> >
> > Thanks for info. That's strange as my psych doc wanted me to start out with just the Selegiline - and then only at like 1/2 tablet a day and work up from there as "selegiline also enhances production of NE and - due to past bad experiences with increasing NE too quickly - we want to approach this very slowly"..... That's paraphrasing her somewhat but basically the gist of it. The approach was (is) to start out working very slowly up to 5mg of selegiline twice a day and then start adding in the DLPA.
>
> Have you started yet?
>
> > BTW, when efforts at trying Effexor and Cymbalta were tried, extreme "burning urethra" type pains (similiar to, but not quite like, prostatitis). I understand that this is not an extremely rare side effect with many men who take these SSNRIs. Do you know what is gonig on that causes this side effect?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Elroy
>
> Just a guess, but.....
>
> The sphincters that control urine release are sensitive to norepinephrine. They tighten up under higher NE levels. I suspect that the burning is because your bladder muscles are forcing uring through contricted sphincters. That feels like burning.
>
> The pain stops as soon as the urine flow pressure stops, right? Maybe a little "afterglow", but the intense part of the pain is only during micturition?
>
> Lar
Posted by Elroy on May 22, 2005, at 20:01:12
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc » World Citizen, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 14:12:55
Any info on when Lyrica is going to become available in North America? Have read on some sites (including here I believe) that it has had some excellent results compared to gabapentin... kind of similar in nature, but super potent at lower doses with less side effects - plus anti-anxiety effects also???
> >
> > Hi Larry.
> >
> > I'm SOOOO sorry your medical "care" has been soooo freaking deplorable! Is there any organizations that can advocate on your behalf-nag paper-pushers, consult with the surgeon, I don't know maybe contact your local SENATOR OR CONGRESSPERSON! It would appear that "the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective" and there are people getting paid to do a whole lot of nothing! If you went to the ER would that induce any action toward your entering the OR? This kind of stuff REALLY pisses me off!!!!!!!! The unnecessary suffering of human beings! (if this were a Beavis and Butthead episode Butthead would be slapping me away from this tangental precipice! I guess I'll have to manage on my own!) Okay, aside from the suggestions mentioned above I'll definately be saying prayers for healing for you.
> >
> > I think maybe it's freaking time you consulted an attorney about this, it reeks of malpractice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > World Citizen!
>
> I appreciate the indignation. I really do.
>
> You can imagine that there have been numerous steps, and that I have simplified things in my discussion of events. You could not even imagine the levels of bureaucracy and incompetency that I have endured.
>
> It is the system that we have, in Ontario.
>
> I am in close discussions with my employer, the poor bastard. Although legally we're in adversarial positions, we're working together to try and minimize the effective cost of this injury. A simple loss of footing on an icy truck, and it will cost him over a quarter of a million dollars in extra assessment (higher bills) over the lifetime of the claim. This is in addition to the weekly payroll tax that he pays (9% of all gross earnings). Outrageous doesn't *begin* to cover it. My lost wages are only about 10% of the costs accruing. 40% is overhead, i.e. bureaucratic BS. Double that, if you consider that nearly all the medical costs to date are the Worker's Comp bureaucrats seeking medical documentation and repetitive examinations.
>
> Example. I have to make an appointment to get my narcotic presecription refilled. I did so last week. The very day after that appointment, I got a form in the mail to get my doctor to fill out. An update form, that will look like all the twenty others that have been submitted previously. "No change in symptoms. Waiting for surgery." But, that will require another appointment (at $225 a pop). And, two weeks later, another appointment for the next month's supply of drugs. Totally asinine, and unnecessary.
>
> And, it is the bureaucracy itself that has led to the lengthy delays. I knew last March that I needed surgery (my orthopedist said so), but I had to see their orthopedist (January of this year).
>
> Who benefits from all this?
>
> Anyway. In the meantime, I manage with oxycodone and gabapentin.
>
> Lar
Posted by World Citizen on May 23, 2005, at 1:06:28
In reply to Re: gabapentin » Larry Hoover, posted by Elroy on May 22, 2005, at 20:01:12
Hi Larry.
After consulting with my son (he's in college studying to be a psychopharmacologist-Alexander Shulgin is his hero) he indicated that since cannibis is legal in Canada why don't you just get some of that and use it instead of the Gabapentin? If anxiety is an issue some individuals that I know FIRST take a low dose of benzo and THEN dose with the cannabis. I know of someone who took Theanine-Serene before dosing with the cannabis and had very minimal anxiety. Cannibis is purported to be VERY good for stopping PAIN!!!!
Larry, I want to give you an update on my musical progress, but I'd better go to the Psycho-Babble social site to share the info or Dr. Bob is going to get on my case again! :>)
World Citizen
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