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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sabre on November 6, 2004, at 22:15:46
Hi
I have recently started using Tyrosine, in addition to:
- fish oil
- SJW
- Vit C and B
- magnesium
and a very low dose of Lexapro...1mg/day. I'm going off it because it just seems to aggravate panic and SA.I didn't notice any effect after the first dose but noticed definite clearheadness, energy and easier breathing while running the following day after taking another dose.
Today I tried approx 3/4 tsp under the tongue before a timed handicap running event.
Usually I'm embarrassingly nervous and although I felt uptight, I took my pulse and it was just under 60bpm...under this anticipatory stress it would usually be 90. My resting pulse is usually in the 50s.
I was about 20-30sec slower than I expected and felt as though my heart rate wouldn't get going.
I felt pretty calm after the event. Probably more than usual.Does Tyrosine usually have such a powerful effect on heart rate? How long does its effect usually last? How long does it take to get it out of your system totally?
I usually train in the morning and if I could take it after running i.e. before work, it might prove useful as a calming agent but not interfere with training.
I find the anticipation of a race provokes anxiety although not in the same league or nature of social anxiety. Running stress is predictable and the anxiety can be funnelled into physical effort. It is logical and expected. Social anxiety and panic are unfair. There is no where to dissipate the adrenaline...you just sizzle and fry in your own juices and then go on to worry about it happening the next time.
Thanks
sabre
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 6, 2004, at 22:55:05
In reply to Tyrosine questions, posted by sabre on November 6, 2004, at 22:15:46
> Hi
> I have recently started using Tyrosine, in addition to:
> - fish oil
> - SJW
> - Vit C and B
> - magnesium
> and a very low dose of Lexapro...1mg/day. I'm going off it because it just seems to aggravate panic and SA.
>
> I didn't notice any effect after the first dose but noticed definite clearheadness, energy and easier breathing while running the following day after taking another dose.
>
> Today I tried approx 3/4 tsp under the tongue before a timed handicap running event.
>
> Usually I'm embarrassingly nervous and although I felt uptight, I took my pulse and it was just under 60bpm...under this anticipatory stress it would usually be 90. My resting pulse is usually in the 50s.
>
> I was about 20-30sec slower than I expected and felt as though my heart rate wouldn't get going.
> I felt pretty calm after the event. Probably more than usual.
>
> Does Tyrosine usually have such a powerful effect on heart rate? How long does its effect usually last? How long does it take to get it out of your system totally?
>
> I usually train in the morning and if I could take it after running i.e. before work, it might prove useful as a calming agent but not interfere with training.
>
> I find the anticipation of a race provokes anxiety although not in the same league or nature of social anxiety. Running stress is predictable and the anxiety can be funnelled into physical effort. It is logical and expected. Social anxiety and panic are unfair. There is no where to dissipate the adrenaline...you just sizzle and fry in your own juices and then go on to worry about it happening the next time.
>
> Thanks
> sabreI didn't know tyrosine had that effect, and I'm impressed at how well you were able to define it. Tyrosine reduces both heart rate and blood pressure, but reports have it that it increases endurance.
It's anxiolytic properties are probably related to reductions in sympathetic tone. It looks like this works well for you, but if you feel that it interferes with your workout intensity, by all means take it afterwards. It's a good idea to take it with some simple carbs to avoid any excessive reduction in heart function, post exertion.
Lar
Posted by sabre on November 7, 2004, at 2:25:47
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions » sabre, posted by Larry Hoover on November 6, 2004, at 22:55:05
Thanks for replying Larry. Your expertise and comments are welcome and appreciated!
I noticed an improvement in the way I felt when I ran the first time I used it. The run was approx 10k but run easily. I felt less effort than usual.
The run today was 6k and flat out. Maybe that had some bearing on the difference.
Perhaps the tyrosine is good for lower intensity aerobic based activity but not so useful for close to anaerobic threshold activity ie 85%+ heart rate?I read that Tyrosine causes bronchodilation and as I suffer from exercise induced asthma in pollen season this might have also explained the easier breathing I experienced with the slower run.
Two positive aspects today were:
- that at 2/3 the way into the run I didn't experience dizziness, which I do usually. I think it could be due to hyperventilation. I have tried holding my breath for short spells during races and this sometimes helps. The tyrosine may have prevented it...who knows.- I recovered very quickly upon stopping.
It is all a bit of a jigsaw and if it wasn't for psychological suffering, I think it would be fun.
When you suggested using simple carbs to avoid excessive reduction in heart function what did you mean exactly?
I suppose it is greedy wanting to be sane and to run competitively too but running has kept me sane and provided a distraction for a long time.
Middle and long distance running attracts introverts, the uptight and social misfits. I fit in well and love it.
sabre
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 7, 2004, at 12:03:30
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions, posted by sabre on November 7, 2004, at 2:25:47
> Thanks for replying Larry. Your expertise and comments are welcome and appreciated!
I'm a bit out of my comfort zone dealing with high-performance athletics.
> I noticed an improvement in the way I felt when I ran the first time I used it. The run was approx 10k but run easily. I felt less effort than usual.
I didn't see info on the mechanism by which tyrosine restricts heart function and blood pressure, but I'd bet it's suppression of noradrenaline. That's probably what you noticed, less NA.
> The run today was 6k and flat out. Maybe that had some bearing on the difference.You likely need to experiment a bit more to grasp the pattern more clearly.
> Perhaps the tyrosine is good for lower intensity aerobic based activity but not so useful for close to anaerobic threshold activity ie 85%+ heart rate?
Or maybe better used intermittently, rather than daily? Hard to say. Maybe you pushed past your normal exertion level because you didn't feel the NA thing happening?
> I read that Tyrosine causes bronchodilation and as I suffer from exercise induced asthma in pollen season this might have also explained the easier breathing I experienced with the slower run.Hmmm. Sounds reasonable. You may find that magnesium and/or niacinamide help, too.
> Two positive aspects today were:
> - that at 2/3 the way into the run I didn't experience dizziness, which I do usually. I think it could be due to hyperventilation. I have tried holding my breath for short spells during races and this sometimes helps. The tyrosine may have prevented it...who knows.
>
> - I recovered very quickly upon stopping.There is some strong evidence that a category of people respond as you describe. That type of response is not universal, and has thus limited the application to sports science. The thing is, it looks like it works for you, so it doesn't matter if you're a member of a sub-group or not.
> It is all a bit of a jigsaw and if it wasn't for psychological suffering, I think it would be fun.
>
> When you suggested using simple carbs to avoid excessive reduction in heart function what did you mean exactly?During the post-exertional recovery phase, your heart-rate is determined by a complex group of factors which also regulate artery tension. If you accidentally cut your heart rate, you could faint. Sugar/high glycemic index food with the tyrosine would prevent that.
> I suppose it is greedy wanting to be sane and to run competitively too but running has kept me sane and provided a distraction for a long time.Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too.
> Middle and long distance running attracts introverts, the uptight and social misfits. I fit in well and love it.
>
> sabreI'm intrigued by what your experiments will show, if you keep using tyrosine.
Lar
Posted by sabre on November 7, 2004, at 22:47:10
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions » sabre, posted by Larry Hoover on November 7, 2004, at 12:03:30
It was brilliant today!!!
Took the tyrosine early... around 6am. Went out for about 10k and felt quite good. But here's where it really helped.
I usually get dropped off at work but today I had to drive. I would usually opt for a beta blocker to do that as driving is one of my panic inducers. I kept waiting for the panic attack. It was like waiting for the axe to fall but it didn't!
We have morning tea in our staff room and that is usually a problem...shaking, spilling cup...close up encounters..questions about weekend etc. I felt pretty good. Sweaty and apprehensive and again kept waiting for the panic to explode but it didn't. I work on my feet all day and took my pulse around 10am and it was close to 60. I would expect it to be higher with stress and activity.
I carried the beta blocker around in my pocket like a security blanket but I didn't use it. I could feel the effects starting to abate by about 11am and by lunch it was more of a chore with the shaky hand and nervousness definitely building but I rode it out.
I can't say it killed the social anxiety but it definitely eased the panic. I think if the panic is under control it can help to build confidence and security in your mind so you can have a base to work off to overcome the social anxiety.I have been looking for something to replace the beta blocker as it was giving me dry sore eyes and was making me feel tired and brain dead. I have high hopes for this stuff now.
I'm going to test out its effect tomorrow by taking it in the morning and doing an anaerobic interval session tomorrow evening.
This is the fourth day and it is still having an effect. Other drugs like Moclobemide and Lexapro had a positive effect for two days and then it was as though my brain fought back in the other direction to regain control.
I have v high sensitivity to every other drug I used so I'm wondering whether the milder effects of the alternative drugs might be suitable for others with similar sensitivities? I had the staggers and drawling speech with the lowest therapeutic dosage of Paxil. Moclobemide gave me ectopic heart beats while Lexapro caused depression, apathy and fatigue at the lowest therapeutic dose.
One quarter the therapeutic dosage of the prescription drugs seemed about right (also for Serzone).
Does improving your fitness increase your sensitivity to drugs? If so, it might be a useful consideration for those who do not respond very much to their drugs.
Larry, does Tyrosine cause an increase or decrease in NA? I thought it might increase dopamine which in turn would help to increase NA.
I posted this link in Babble which I thought was amazing:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11064960%255E23289,00.html
I would love to know how you could find out about your NA/dop/sero genetic failings. It might save people a fair amount of experimentation with psych drugs.
Thanks for your suggestions. I'll take some simple carbs after training tomorrow.
I'll keep you posted.sabre
Posted by sabre on November 9, 2004, at 22:34:49
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions, posted by sabre on November 7, 2004, at 22:47:10
Hi
Took Tyrosine again yesterday morning. Got thrown into a situation where I had to introduce myself in a seminar...all of the audience had to. Did the pathetic SA-type rehearsal of saying my one liner over and over (as if I was going to forget my name) before they got to me and felt like I wasn't going to be able to do it.Waited for the panic attack but it didn't happen. So it was approx as effective as a beta blocker, ie anticipatory anxiety present but no actual panic.
Interestingly, the Tyrosine effect seemed to not last as long...maybe 3 hours. It felt as though my brain had chewed it up during the seminar.
Later that evening with no extra Tyrosine dosage.
I did a strong running effort and did not have any problems getting the heart rate up.Today I took two doses (1/2 tsp) early am and lunch. Felt as calm as I would on bblockers but without the fatigue.
The social anxiety doesn't seem to be assisted greatly by the Tyrosine. I'm curious to try the niacinamide as soon as I can get some. I'm also trying to get mag taurate as the mad carb I have is diabolical on the gut.
I really want to go further with study but I can't face the thought of tutorials, oral presentations etc. Got to find an answer!!
sabre
Posted by tealady on November 10, 2004, at 16:01:24
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions, posted by sabre on November 9, 2004, at 22:34:49
Hi, I think we might hvae some similarity in our reacion to tyrosine. I you are interested you could ggogle at the bottom of the page (this ist) on tyrsoine tealady to read some of my old posts.
There's a few and they go back to Aug2003<grin>Let me know if you have any similar reactions..eg. does tyrosine dull pain for you?
Also this is going to sound funny, but do you have any white spots on your fingernails?
Posted by sabre on November 11, 2004, at 18:21:36
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions » sabre, posted by tealady on November 10, 2004, at 16:01:24
Hi tealady!
I started at the beginning of the Babble Alternative and began reading your posts however I also took a few detours along the way. There is just so much information contained in these pages...my brain was melting down. I also find it difficult to concentrate for long spells. I can't decide whether to pull out a biochem text and start from page one or what..I had to laugh when you said you had a huge need for chocolate with the Tyrosine. I was just devouring some plus coffee, of course.
When I took Lexapro my addiction for the stuff lessened greatly. We were were able to keep slabs of it in the freezer for days rather than hours. Each time I dropped my dosage, the choc urge arose as did a carb craving until I got used to the dose.
I've stopped taking the Lex and I've regained the choc habit. The same thing happened with almonds.You spoke of pain, which is also interesting. The PMS was definitely a good deal better this month... didn't get the usual 2 day migraine. I didn't suspect it was a Tyro effect. Just thought I was lucky.
I also had an annoying intermittent nerve irritation in a tooth while on Lexapro. It vanished when I stopped it and started taking the Tyrosine.
The other pains I get are running related....muscle trigger pains in the calves that refer into the heels esp while trying to run track. I dry needle the triggers and as an experiment attempted dipping the needles into magnesium ...also tried it with a syringe (only just below the skin surface). This made the needle holes slightly more red and inflammed but that's all. Perhaps I should try Tyrosine.
Last week I had very sore heels (no Tyro) while doing the track work. This week they were less painful - took a morning dose of Tyro. But I think I need to do a lot more experimentation to work out whether it is helping with pain.
I was also going to try bathing my legs in Mag sulphate (epsom salts) to see what effect that had. I don't know what the absorption is like through the skin.
You mentioned using D and L phenylalanine. I have some of the combined stuff. Do you think it is worth a go?You also said the Tyro caused a BP increase. My diastolic went up from 70 to about 77.
What ailments in the mental realm do you have?
As I said, tyrosine feels like a beta blocker to me without the slowing down, however I feel like I don't know Tyro well enough and have not tested it out fully. When I go to work or shopping or something 'public' and I am only relying on the Tyrosine the best analogy is tight rope walking without a net. I hope I don't fall.
sabre
Posted by TeeJay on November 11, 2004, at 19:32:54
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions, posted by sabre on November 11, 2004, at 18:21:36
<i>What ailments in the mental realm do you have?
</i>
Did I ever tell you the story about when she chased me up a Welsh mountain with a fully loaded cheese and onion baguette?
Posted by sabre on November 11, 2004, at 21:18:23
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions » sabre, posted by TeeJay on November 11, 2004, at 19:32:54
So how did you disarm her? Eat it?
Posted by anony on November 17, 2004, at 0:47:08
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions, posted by sabre on November 11, 2004, at 21:18:23
sabre, i'm in very similar situationa as you are in.
i have to register courses for next semester, and i try to avoid courses that have presentation and participation, or even tutorial. it's driving me crazy. i want to study but cannot take courses i want. even looking at course lists make me panic.my tyrosine just arrived today, but i also received B12. i'll try B12 for a week or so to see how it affects me, and then try tyrosine, but according to what you say it seems like it doesn't help much.
i'm also taking fish oil. i should increase dosage of it too.
Posted by tealady on November 17, 2004, at 2:07:50
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions, posted by sabre on November 11, 2004, at 18:21:36
> Hi tealady!
Gday> I started at the beginning of the Babble Alternative and began reading your posts however I also took a few detours along the way. There is just so much information contained in these pages...my brain was melting down. I also find it difficult to concentrate for long spells. I can't decide whether to pull out a biochem text and start from page one or what..
Hmm I decided to go back to uni and try to study biochem stuff too(eventually).., LOL
Also I can only cope with one subject (FT is 4)..and even then I almost didn't make it..they like to keep testing you..and at one stage I just couldn't take it. Exam I kinda crashed in too..couldn't understand some questions..even if the topic was simple...but I guess I learnt a lot>
> I had to laugh when you said you had a huge need for chocolate with the Tyrosine. I was just devouring some plus coffee, of course.I'm surprised about chocolate, I thougt it was just me..or even just females..especially during PMS time..can't cope without it then...but soem of the top researchers in diet fields admit to eating chocolate too <g>
>
> When I took Lexapro my addiction for the stuff lessened greatly. We were were able to keep slabs of it in the freezer for days rather than hours.Each time I dropped my dosage, the choc urge arose as did a carb craving until I got used to the dose.
> I've stopped taking the Lex and I've regained the choc habit. The same thing happened with almonds.
>yeah i like almonds too
> You spoke of pain, which is also interesting. The PMS was definitely a good deal better this month... didn't get the usual 2 day migraine. I didn't suspect it was a Tyro effect. Just thought I was lucky.
>
> I also had an annoying intermittent nerve irritation in a tooth while on Lexapro. It vanished when I stopped it and started taking the Tyrosine.
>yep tyrosine does that for me..at present that's all use it for
Had a filling at the dentists last month just taking 500mg tyrsoine in morning..no anesthetic..and it hurt less than with the anesthetic?> The other pains I get are running related....muscle trigger pains in the calves that refer into the heels esp while trying to run track. I dry needle the triggers and as an experiment attempted dipping the needles into magnesium ...also tried it with a syringe (only just below the skin surface). This made the needle holes slightly more red and inflammed but that's all. Perhaps I should try Tyrosine.
worth a try...a few on the thyroid forum get those heel pains think..I didn't read the threads
I went thru a sore feet pain at one stage..but not just heel. One hypothyroid horse got it really bad ..the bones tend to go thru the hoof I think...if its similar that is,
I had to keep off my feet at one stage there>
> Last week I had very sore heels (no Tyro) while doing the track work. This week they were less painful - took a morning dose of Tyro. But I think I need to do a lot more experimentation to work out whether it is helping with pain.
>
> I was also going to try bathing my legs in Mag sulphate (epsom salts) to see what effect that had. I don't know what the absorption is like through the skin.there is definitely some..I can notice a diff
>
> You mentioned using D and L phenylalanine. I have some of the combined stuff. Do you think it is worth a go?no idea..I didn't try it. Lar like it at on stage.
I figured I'd stick as close to the thyroid hormones as possible
BTW I suspct from your symptoms that's where you are slightly low maybe too..and why the tyrosine helped for a while..not saying it will show on any tests..just maybe that is where you should support your function>
> You also said the Tyro caused a BP increase. My diastolic went up from 70 to about 77.I think (from memory my diastolic went up from 80 to 88?)..I'd have to look thru the old posts of mine I think..I think I mentioned it somewhere?
>
> What ailments in the mental realm do you have?LOL...you'd need a library
depression can get really bad at times, apathy always there..changeable mostly>
> As I said, tyrosine feels like a beta blocker to me without the slowing down, however I feel like I don't know Tyro well enough and have not tested it out fully. When I go to work or shopping or something 'public' and I am only relying on the Tyrosine the best analogy is tight rope walking without a net. I hope I don't fall.
> sabre
>hmm I know I stopped it after a while for some reason..but having a bad memory I can't remember why. Guess you didn't come across why I stopped in the rchives :)..but I think it may have been similar to your experience.
I still take it for pain though..and one day I'll try and find out why I stopped it..if I posted whyThat was a big effort to go thru the archives...I've ben busy thinking about this oxidation stuff..as well as having a few things of my own :-)
Jan
Posted by tealady on November 17, 2004, at 16:40:03
In reply to Re: Tyrosine questions, posted by sabre on November 7, 2004, at 22:47:10
> It was brilliant today!!!
>
> Took the tyrosine early... around 6am. Went out for about 10k and felt quite good. But here's where it really helped.
>
> I usually get dropped off at work but today I had to drive. I would usually opt for a beta blocker to do that as driving is one of my panic inducers. I kept waiting for the panic attack. It was like waiting for the axe to fall but it didn't!
>
> We have morning tea in our staff room and that is usually a problem...shaking, spilling cup...close up encounters..questions about weekend etc. I felt pretty good. Sweaty and apprehensive and again kept waiting for the panic to explode but it didn't. I work on my feet all day and took my pulse around 10am and it was close to 60. I would expect it to be higher with stress and activity.
>
> I carried the beta blocker around in my pocket like a security blanket but I didn't use it. I could feel the effects starting to abate by about 11am and by lunch it was more of a chore with the shaky hand and nervousness definitely building but I rode it out.
> I can't say it killed the social anxiety but it definitely eased the panic. I think if the panic is under control it can help to build confidence and security in your mind so you can have a base to work off to overcome the social anxiety.
>
> I have been looking for something to replace the beta blocker as it was giving me dry sore eyes and was making me feel tired and brain dead. I have high hopes for this stuff now.
>
> I'm going to test out its effect tomorrow by taking it in the morning and doing an anaerobic interval session tomorrow evening.
>
> This is the fourth day and it is still having an effect. Other drugs like Moclobemide and Lexapro had a positive effect for two days and then it was as though my brain fought back in the other direction to regain control.
>
> I have v high sensitivity to every other drug I used so I'm wondering whether the milder effects of the alternative drugs might be suitable for others with similar sensitivities? I had the staggers and drawling speech with the lowest therapeutic dosage of Paxil. Moclobemide gave me ectopic heart beats while Lexapro caused depression, apathy and fatigue at the lowest therapeutic dose.
>
> One quarter the therapeutic dosage of the prescription drugs seemed about right (also for Serzone).
>
> Does improving your fitness increase your sensitivity to drugs? If so, it might be a useful consideration for those who do not respond very much to their drugs.
>
> Larry, does Tyrosine cause an increase or decrease in NA? I thought it might increase dopamine which in turn would help to increase NA.
>
> I posted this link in Babble which I thought was amazing:
>
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11064960%255E23289,00.html
>
> I would love to know how you could find out about your NA/dop/sero genetic failings. It might save people a fair amount of experimentation with psych drugs.
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. I'll take some simple carbs after training tomorrow.
> I'll keep you posted.
>
> sabre
>Tyrosine should cause an increase in noradrenaline..which is usually the reason most have to stop it, although a few( its more the exception than the rule)some have taken it for years.
I didn't want to say anything that might possibly influence the outcome of your trial, especially as it was going great.
Some hypothyroid parents with ADD kids have their kids going well on tyrosine for a couple of years now I think.(instead of ADD meds like ritalin).
On the hyperthyroid forum, I think I read (memory poor so may be wrong) that they did an unofficial survey and found a lot of them had suffered anorexia when younger,
In hyperthyroidism your metabolism is speeded up..so it would, in theory, be easier to lose weight and become anorexic if you had a faster metabolism (ask any hypothryoid person how much they eat and whether they lose weight :)If there is a link..then norardenaline too would be depleted faster than a normal person's ...EVERYTHING should be I would think.
So one way of getting one's noradrenaline down quickly (if it is too high for comfort and causing anxiety) for those type of people would have to be to stop eating..and it ALWAYS feel better if you can decrease anxiety when levels are high. Anxiety is the worst..Tyrosine should be expected here to increase anxiety levels...poor kids (IMO).
Wonder if they show any antibodies?
Jan
PS I think the anxiety levels had something to do with why I stopped the tyrosine after a while.. but then I think I was trying SJW and niacinamide and niacin at that time too..and suspected they all seemed to increase anxiety :)
Jan
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