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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 32 to 56 of 142. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2013, at 0:37:28
In reply to Re: If you find it depressing..., posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2013, at 17:23:02
> > I really don't understand why one should have to learn this. I manage to find sufficient places where sh*t is not flung at me, to wish to learn how to accept it gracefully.
>
> you are lucky that you were able to find a refuge.Plus sometimes it's not other people, it's life. Has anyone here not had to deal with sh*t?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2013, at 11:29:08
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2013, at 0:37:28
Yes, and so I do.
But I don't have to stay where people treat me badly, and I don't.
My cousin once told me that I was so lucky to find boyfriends who treated me with respect. I was astonished. It wouldn't have occurred to me to date anyone who didn't treat me with respect. For all my issues with my mother, she taught me how to behave and what to expect from others.
I loved Babble for what it once was, and the civility guidelines once in place. I appreciated a moderator who felt that people shouldn't have sh*t hurled at them. I suppose I stick around even now for lingering affection for that place and that moderator, despite my disappointment.
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2013, at 11:50:22
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2013, at 11:29:08
Apparently this has changed from a place with a moderator who did not tolerate sh*t being thrown at others to a place with a therapist-in-chief who sees his mission as teaching people to shield themselves against sh*t being thrown *on his own website*.
It boggles my mind that there needs to be an answer to that beyond leaving his website.
Certainly it reinforces my own conclusions about Babble. That saddens me.
Although I recognize that it makes Alex happy.
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 5, 2013, at 14:40:09
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2013, at 11:50:22
Same here. It's tied in to that feeling of safety, which has long gone.
And the issue of specialness, being expected to be treated that way, and sameness, and being expected to be treated politely.
I didn't have the courage to post on this forum until you voiced my concerns, Dinah. Thank you.
I won't make any further posts on this thread.
PC
Posted by Phillipa on December 5, 2013, at 20:35:46
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2013, at 0:37:28
Dr Bob honestly? Isn't this a daily function of most? But I don't fling it I flush it away. Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on December 5, 2013, at 21:33:42
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2013, at 11:50:22
well... i just find it amusing watching bob and lou get their geek on over the civility rules. i... i simply don't follow the conversations. maybe i don't try hard enough. i don't know. i just... don't feel any kind of tug at all to try and make things better or whatever. and i don't feel like lou is upset with me about anything... i guess because he isn't. perhaps because i don't post much to meds... i don't post to faith... i don't know.
i just... well... sometimes it is hard for people to get the help they need irl. to... feel heard. feel like there are people who can hear you. engage with you. i know the frustration of that. and i feel... happy for lou that bob seems to get him some times. that bob can engage with him. i think that is good.
i hear that other people feel upset... wish lou would stop it... i think... the harm to lou of stopping it would be greater than the harm to them if they refrained from reading these threads. i just... do. i see most of the people complaining... have good therapy relationships irl. etc. i...
it is easy to help those whom it is easy to help. perhaps. i think it is good that bob can help some people here who perhaps might have a harder time of it irl... perhaps in part because of the medium here. perhaps in part because of who he is. probably a combo of both. whatever...
whatever.
i think it is nice.
Posted by SLS on December 5, 2013, at 23:51:33
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by alexandra_k on December 5, 2013, at 21:33:42
In what ways do you identify yourself with Lou Pilder? You protect him. Why?
For me personally, I feel connected to him in that, like Lou, I am concerned about antisemitism.
Are you prescribing for some people that they should refrain from reading posts authored by Lou Pilder should they be upset by them? That's not a bad idea. So, when he declares that we are killing our children by drugging them with compounds containing benzene (aromatic) rings, you feel that one must refrain from responding to this, simply because they feel the need to intercede and challenge this idea? Who is more hurt by allowing Lou Pilder's statements to remain unchallenged, Lou or a newbie who is for the first time looking for information on antidepressants or benzodiazepines? Once Lou Pilder returns his attention to the Medication board, perhaps we can look at his posting behaviors using a new set of filters regarding posting rules such that we should let all of his posts "stand".
Who cares?
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on December 6, 2013, at 0:07:12
In reply to Benzene. » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on December 5, 2013, at 23:51:33
> In what ways do you identify yourself with Lou Pilder? You protect him. Why?
I don't know that I protect him... I don't like it when people express thoughts that suggest that... They would be happier if he went away. I guess, I don't like that.
> For me personally, I feel connected to him in that, like Lou, I am concerned about antisemitism.
Yes. On these boards... I don't think you would find anybody who wouldn't support that.
Perhaps part of this is... That in my country you wouldn't find anybody (really much) who would speak out against (alleged) things 'Maaori'. But... Ur... I might have a tendancy to. After having lived with some segment of them more intimately than the majority of NZers ever will... What I need to remember is that it is indeed 'some segment of them'. But it is hard to remember that... It does indeed feel like a 'representative majority' and statistically I'm sure it is... But, ur, I feel... I should interact with the best of them. I should... And then see what I can learn / see how I feel.
(I think I will get the opportunity to do that - for which I am grateful).
> Are you prescribing for some people that they should refrain from reading posts authored by Lou Pilder should they be upset by them?Ur... Yeah. Or that they... Read them... Feel upset... Then find a way that put them out of their mind / has them feel less upset. If possible. Yeah.
> So, when he declares that we are killing our children by drugging them with compounds containing benzene (aromatic) rings, you feel that one must refrain from responding to this, simply because they feel the need to intercede and challenge this idea?
Here's the thing. If one has simple counter-examples that refute the point, then one can simply post the counter-examples.
What is left?
Emotional investment.
Emotional investment.
Now one gets to think about... Who is... Capable of... Being the better person... One can challenge. What does 'investment' mean? What does that mean? Invested in saying what one wants to say (go for it) or... Invested in being thought right? The latter is problematic...
The latter is problematic.
Say what you have to say... The best way that you can... And then... Move on.
Why so hard?
Posted by SLS on December 6, 2013, at 0:25:49
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by alexandra_k on December 5, 2013, at 21:33:42
> it is easy to help those whom it is easy to help.
I agree. It's easy when it's easy.
> perhaps. i think it is good that bob can help some people here who perhaps might have a harder time of it irl...
Okay. That is indeed wonderful.
What tools shall a psychiatrist use to help these people?
Is it to be the role of our moderator that of personal cyberpsychotherapist? Fine. Under what roof shall these pro bono services be rendered - Administration? Medication?
I do not see Dr. Hsiung's discussion with Lou Pilder as being psychotherapy. However, the doctor's training can certainly be called upon for him to achieve his goals.
> perhaps in part because of the medium here. perhaps in part because of who he is. probably a combo of both. whatever...
> whatever.
What does "whatever" mean?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 6, 2013, at 0:31:39
In reply to Re: Benzene., posted by alexandra_k on December 6, 2013, at 0:07:12
> Say what you have to say... The best way that you can... And then... Move on.
>
> Why so hard?I almost never "move on" when I am invested in a goal.
Sometimes, that means the continuation of a dialogue.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 6, 2013, at 1:49:26
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this » Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on December 5, 2013, at 14:40:09
> I suppose I stick around even now for lingering affection for that place and that moderator, despite my disappointment.
I'm glad you're still around. I feel affection for you, too.
> > sometimes it's not other people, it's life. Has anyone here not had to deal with sh*t?
>
> Yes, and so I do.> Apparently this has changed from a place with a moderator who did not tolerate sh*t being thrown at others to a place with a therapist-in-chief who sees his mission as teaching people to shield themselves against sh*t being thrown *on his own website*.
>
> Dinah> Same here. It's tied in to that feeling of safety, which has long gone.
>
> PCI can think of a few different ways to be safe:
1. Find a place where there isn't any sh*t.
2. Find someone to shield you. That was the old model here, and I'm still open to a Refuge board:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130702/msgs/1046456.html
but there hasn't been much interest.
3. Learn to shield yourself. My idea isn't actually for me to teach posters. It's for posters to teach each other:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055165.html
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 9:14:45
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by Dr. Bob on December 6, 2013, at 1:49:26
> 1. Find a place where there isn't any sh*t.
>I suppose I'd better choose 1.
Otherwise I feel the need to defend myself. And I like to think I'm better than that.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 9:15:37
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this » Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on December 5, 2013, at 14:40:09
It's not that I can't defend myself. I simply don't want to have to pack a six shooter.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 9:28:04
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by Dr. Bob on December 6, 2013, at 1:49:26
How the H*ll would a refuge board work?
Lou could still arouse anti-former-deputy feeling and as long as I didn't read it, I'd be happy as can be to post politely with him on the Refuge board?
I am appalled to think that you allow former deputies to be abused because they tried to help you out. And I'm not just talking me here. It's beyond enough that the abuse we were forced to tolerate as deputies can't be outlawed once we go back to being purely mental health consumers on this board.
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 6, 2013, at 11:24:43
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 9:28:04
I'd like to point out too that learning to tolerate having sh*t slung at you is not necessarily therapeutically indicated for those of us struggling with PTSD. Exposure therapy, in fact, can be fatal in some cases. I refer to the "gun-ho" do it yourself military trauma therapist who brought a returned soldier with PTSD to a gun range. Where he shot himself.
I not only won't tolerate having sh*t slung at me, I can't, after a lifetime of it.
Dr. Bob, you are not just thoughtless. You are a danger to THIS poster.PC
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 11:41:05
In reply to Re: please be civil » Twinleaf » SLS, posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2013, at 2:17:41
Under your guidelines, shouldn't Lou be learning to shield himself from sh*t? Why the PBC?
Could you clarify? Is there a limit to the amount of sh*t someone should have to learn to live with? Is it just the sh*t of one poster we should have to live with? Is there a limit to that person's sh*t?
Why don't you tell that person that all previous limitations on his ability to post about his gates and his message has been lifted, because others have to learn to deal with him? And that he'll have to learn to live with the responses of others? Or that the former is true but not the latter?
I would like some clarifications on the sh*t policies of this website.
Because it isn't right or fair to leave posters to take their chances.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 11:58:10
In reply to Why should *some* need to live with it » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 11:41:05
Apologies. I was using Dr. Bob's terminology. But of course I should have used a quotation mark in this sentence.
I would like some clarifications on the "sh*t" policies of this website.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 12:05:16
In reply to Why should *some* need to live with it » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 11:41:05
> Is there a limit placed on that person's sh*t?
Posted by Twinleaf on December 6, 2013, at 12:54:41
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2013, at 9:28:04
Dinah, just a word to say that I support you completely. Dr.Bob's initial decision to exempt Lou from the civility guidelines asked of everyone else has gradually led him into more and more extreme and indefensible positions, such as the idea of a Refuge board, or trying to manipulate Scott into telling you how to express your thoughts. I think the positions about the former deputies are especially painful to read, as it was so clear how hard you all tried to support him, even when it caused you pain and conflict. I wish Dr. Bob would step back from the * therapist to one poster/ superior ethical guide to everyone else* role he has assumed, so that he can see the harm he is causing Babble. In order for this forum to continue and prosper, we need just one thing: a fair, flexible, moderate administrator who treats everyone with equality and respect. It's almost hard to believe how far he has strayed from that.
Posted by larryhoover on December 6, 2013, at 22:14:55
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2013, at 0:37:28
> > > I really don't understand why one should have to learn this. I manage to find sufficient places where sh*t is not flung at me, to wish to learn how to accept it gracefully.
> >
> > you are lucky that you were able to find a refuge.
>
> Plus sometimes it's not other people, it's life. Has anyone here not had to deal with sh*t?
>
> BobGood god, Bob! All that is necessary for evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing to prevent it.
The existence of sh*t or evil or whatever you wish to call it is not the problem. The problem is that you have the tools to prevent it, and you do nothing.
Shall we call you Chamberlain?
Lar
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 7, 2013, at 6:50:16
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by larryhoover on December 6, 2013, at 22:14:55
> Good god, Bob! All that is necessary for evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing to prevent it.
>
> The existence of sh*t or evil or whatever you wish to call it is not the problem. The problem is that you have the tools to prevent it, and you do nothing.
>
> Shall we call you Chamberlain?
>
> Lar
>
>
Snort!
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2013, at 2:09:21
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this » Dinah, posted by Twinleaf on December 6, 2013, at 12:54:41
> trying to manipulate Scott into telling you how to express your thoughts.
Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me) to feel accused.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2013, at 2:41:53
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by larryhoover on December 6, 2013, at 22:14:55
> I'd like to point out too that learning to tolerate having sh*t slung at you is not necessarily therapeutically indicated for those of us struggling with PTSD. Exposure therapy, in fact, can be fatal in some cases. I refer to the "gun-ho" do it yourself military trauma therapist who brought a returned soldier with PTSD to a gun range. Where he shot himself.
>
> PCThanks, that's a good point.
Dinah, do you have PTSD?
--
> It's not that I can't defend myself. I simply don't want to have to pack a six shooter.
>
> DinahA six-shooter isn't defense. A shield is defense.
--
> All that is necessary for evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing to prevent it.
>
> The existence of sh*t ... is not the problem. The problem is that you have the tools to prevent it, and you do nothing.
>
> Shall we call you Chamberlain?
>
> LarI'm not blocking Lou, but I'm not doing nothing, either.
Sh*t isn't prevented = it happens.
You may call me Lord Bob should you wish to.
Bob
Posted by Phillipa on December 8, 2013, at 19:43:05
In reply to Re: why one would benefit from learning this, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2013, at 2:41:53
Dr Bob this just doesn't sound like you. Have you appointed another to answer your threads? Phillipa
Posted by 10derheart on December 9, 2013, at 1:18:49
In reply to Re: why one would benefit from learning this, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2013, at 2:41:53
>A six-shooter isn't defense. A shield is defense.
Really? Says who?
Is there is only one sort of defense?
This is not always true, not by a long shot. Not IRL circumstances, and not here. Maybe in an idealistic existence, but not in the world I know. If you honestly think a "six-shooter" never provides excellent defense and is not called for to counter *sh*t,* well, then (I can't speak for Dinah but...) you and I will have a really difficult time understanding one another about this.
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