![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 97 to 121 of 193. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2013, at 19:53:24
In reply to Re: resentment » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 8:20:06
> I don't usually feel resentment. But I think I'm feeling it right now.
hmm. i guess i figured i've been feeling a lot of it over the last couple years. i don't much like it. it seems close to bitterness, to me, and i'd rather not be a person who feels a lot of bitterness :-(
i read that remorse is when resentment is felt towards oneself. really? i would never have thought that... i thought remorse was about feeling sorry for whatever it is one thinks one should feel sorry about...
i'm talking about irl, though, not the boards. i don't think i feel resentment here.
> But tell me, Alex, do you just worry about your own behavior when people are being hurt by the behavior of others? If someone is going around hurting other people, do you just worry about your own behavior?
it comes down to our needing to make a judgment:
- when should we alter the individual's behavior
- when should we alter society's response to ite.g., homosexuality. used to be something that we thought best to treat. because we disapprove of it, you see. now we think that the behavior actually isn't problematic at all, rather we need to change society. if someone is upset about homosexual behavior the appropriate intervention is not to alter the homosexual behavior it is to alter the emotional response to it.
and psychiatry is a form of social control... like law.
ahaha.
> People have been trying to mitigate the behavior of Lou for far more hours than Bob would need to invest. And when people see newcomers having panic attacks over Lou's posts, people want to see that stopped.
yes. it would be nice if people didn't have panic attacks.
> I'm pleased to see that you are now solidly behind Bob. I don't swing to such extremes. I never was against him, and I'm also not fervently pro-Bob to such a degree that I'll support his behavior when I think it is wrong.aw, hey, neither am i. i will speak up when i think he does wrong. surely you know that about me? it is just that you and i often have a different perspective on when he is right and when he is wrong. between the both of us maybe he gets just the right amount of support / critique.
?
and sometimes we agree... i think... we have...
and sometimes (but you really do need to bang on) you open up different ways of viewing things for me, and i think i come to a fuller understanding... even though we might not necessarily agree... my world feels enriched for it, anyway...
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2013, at 20:00:23
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
>
>
> Lou's obviously being used as a scapegoat. But I am sure you know that, don't you?
>
> ZZDuck,
What you wrote is plainly visible.
> And here we have the dynamics of scapegoating that may be unbeknownst to some.
Psychologists say that scapegoating is attributing blame to others. but it is much more than that. Scapegoaters move blame and responsibility away from themselves and toward a target person or group.The scapegoaters project their hostility via accusations, blame and criticism of the one they are targeting as a scapegoat.
In scapegoating, feelings of guilt, aggression and blame and suffering are transferred away from a person or group so as to fulfill an unconscious drive to resolve or avoid such bad feelings. This is done by the displacement of responsibility and blame to another who serves as a target for blame both for the scapegoaters and his/her supporters. The scapegoter's target experiences exclusion, ostracism or even expulsion. [Karpman 1968].
But there is much more to this because of the devastating consequences that could come back to the scapegoater as history records, such as suicide or held culpable for crimes committed toward the one that they use as a scapegoat.
Lou
>
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on July 5, 2013, at 20:45:27
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:07:50
What used to be is gone. My time is spent elsewhere. I get nothing but a googlebar here for ebay posting. Used to be supportive can't see that I is for the most part anymore. But what do I know as told all the time from a blocked poster that I'm hated here. Phillipa
Posted by Willful on July 5, 2013, at 23:26:06
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
I completely disagree with your assessment.
It's certainly not something self-evident, or something that could be inferred simply from the numbers. You really would need to consider carefully what's at stake-- which I have no idea whether you have-- I"d be interested in hearing your ideas rather than merely a conclusory opinion.
It's not necessarily the case that if a lot of people disagree with or object to another person's posts--or for that matter dislike another person, or wish not to associate with him or her (hypothetically that is-- I'm not referring to this case), that that person is being scapegoated.
Sometimes there's a legitimate reason for people's reactions, even if many people, perhaps even eventually as a group, take issue with someone else's ideas or actions.
Posted by Dinah on July 6, 2013, at 12:16:18
In reply to Re: resentment, posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2013, at 19:53:24
> and sometimes we agree... i think... we have...
>
> and sometimes (but you really do need to bang on) you open up different ways of viewing things for me, and i think i come to a fuller understanding... even though we might not necessarily agree... my world feels enriched for it, anyway...Thanks, Alex. I feel that way too.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2013, at 17:03:14
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on July 5, 2013, at 20:45:27
> > What makes this rewarding for me is "wins" like posters finding that they're stronger than they thought.
>
> So you find it rewarding that a poster here and there are strong enough to continue posting in the face of the pain they receive at your website? Well...
>
> I don't see it as a "win" for the website though, other than of course the site is better off than if the poster left. It's more a "win" for the poster. What did you have to do with it? Do you feel pride in it?I thought she felt strong enough not just to continue posting here, but to fight for her daughter in real life. Yes, I find that rewarding. OK, it's primarily a win for her, but a win for a member of this community is also a win for this community. I take some pride in it because I moderate this site. Community members could take pride in it because they continually gave her inspiration.
> I believe I hear you saying [posters] are going to have to continue to see Lou continue posting ... That they're going to have to learn to find intrinsic rewards in continuing to battle Lou? Thank you for making that clear. That makes me feel sad.
Would you call the above "intrinsic"? I do feel it's sad to be powerless to effect the changes one wishes to see. Would you agree? I try to learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
> I generally have been choosing
>
> 4.) things in life other than Babble. I'm rather proud of my strength in being able to do that more and more. You are free to take pride in that if you wish, as you certainly have played a role in giving me that strength. I spent nearly a month without looking at the site!! Congratulations on generating that strength in me.
>
> DinahThanks, I do take some pride in that, too. As you're well aware, I chose 4.) for a time myself.
--
> I also feel a deep appreciation for Babble as it used to be. I think it played a limited but very positive role in my recovery from depression, both by providing good ideas of medications to try, and, even more, by providing a warm and empathic community to share experiences with.
>
> What did eventually damage that sense of trust and community was that the board became unmoderated.
>
> If the positive aspects of Babble aren't restored, posters are simply not going to want to be a part of it. Old posters are going to continue to disappear, and new ones are not going to find it worthwhile to join.
>
> It would be so much better to institute a minimal, flexible version of the administrative policies which made Babble a success in the past.
>
> TwinleafThanks, I'll try to remember that attachment to the old Babble can reflect appreciation for it.
Unfortunately, that wasn't a sustainable model. Not for me or for any of the deputies. So change is necessary.
In fact, what you have before you now is a minimal, flexible version of those administrative policies. With the option of a less minimal and flexible version. But for some, neither of those models will be just right.
Posters have always come and gone. A new model may not prevail by convincing its opponents, but rather because its opponents eventually go, and a new generation "grows up" that is familiar with it.
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> what do I know as told all the time from a blocked poster that I'm hated here.
>
> Phillipa1. Do you like being told that?
2. How do you know they hate you?Can you see where I'm going?
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on July 7, 2013, at 17:39:44
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2013, at 17:03:14
I am personally very appreciative that you have begun moderating a bit once again. I realize that it is impossible to get it right in everyone's eyes all the time, but I do appreciate the effort. Occasional might be the way to go, because I do think people remember when they have been given a PBC.
On another thread, you asked if we could commit to posting more on Psychology and Social if you commit to more moderating. I think that's very fair. It is a bit hard to post personal or therapy-related messages on Psychology if they just end up unaknowledged and sitting there all by themselves, but I will do my best. My therapy is now much less intensive than it once was, but I am willing to try if, say, Dinah would do it a bit also!
Posted by Dinah on July 7, 2013, at 18:09:09
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2013, at 17:03:14
> I thought she felt strong enough not just to continue posting here, but to fight for her daughter in real life. Yes, I find that rewarding. OK, it's primarily a win for her, but a win for a member of this community is also a win for this community. I take some pride in it because I moderate this site. Community members could take pride in it because they continually gave her inspiration.
And do you take responsibility when people do leave? When the pain here is too great, or the rewards not high enough to put up with the costs? Do you see that as a loss? Do you *feel* that loss? How many people do you think have left Babble over what's all over the current pages?
> Would you call the above "intrinsic"? I do feel it's sad to be powerless to effect the changes one wishes to see. Would you agree? I try to learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
I *hate* being powerless when I see people are being hurt. I am not really strong enough to cope other than by disengaging. It just hurts too much.
> Thanks, I do take some pride in that, too. As you're well aware, I chose 4.) for a time myself.You can be duly thankful that our Sunday School lesson today was on generosity, and after speaking up firmly for the importance of generosity of spirit, it gave me a bit of a sense of humor about my participation recently on Babble. So I'll take that in the most generous spirit instead of interpreting it in my usual way of "Don't let the door hit you on your way out." I'm glad you've quit doing 4 quite so much. Babble needs you.
> In fact, what you have before you now is a minimal, flexible version of those administrative policies. With the option of a less minimal and flexible version. But for some, neither of those models will be just right.
>
> Posters have always come and gone. A new model may not prevail by convincing its opponents, but rather because its opponents eventually go, and a new generation "grows up" that is familiar with it.I've always said that Babble couldn't be all things to all people. That you were *always* making choices about which type of people Babble would be for. I appreciated that in the wild west of the internet, Babble was a place for those who did value civility, who did look for someplace relatively safe.
Perhaps part of what I feel now is anger and hurt that you've made the choice to bring Babble in a new direction and appeal to a different group of posters. As if the ones who wish for civility and safety aren't the ones you're choosing now. Babble used to be welcoming, and is no longer.
I guess new posters would be your target audience, since old posters who disliked the old Babble will likely still remember it, and old posters who liked the old Babble for what it was aren't likely to like it now. So many of the people I care about are gone and aren't likely to return.
And you keep telling me not to let the door hit my *ss on the way out.
Posted by Dinah on July 7, 2013, at 18:13:03
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Twinleaf on July 7, 2013, at 17:39:44
Well, it's true that I would be reluctant to post anything personal at the moment on Babble. But I often overcame that reluctance at times of even greater insecurity. Part of my problem is that my therapy is in a pretty good place, I've learned the golden lesson of communicating with my therapist, and, well....
In bringing my issues with my therapist to Babble more openly than my positives with my therapist, I found myself in the position of people disapproving of him - which wasn't particularly fair to him.
I can try, but I think it's easier for me to respond than to post.
And so many people are gone....
Posted by Twinleaf on July 7, 2013, at 21:03:20
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah on July 7, 2013, at 18:13:03
Yeah, a lot of great people are gone...I've been around long enough to know that your therapist is great, and a wonderful match for you (even when you go through tough times with him). You seem a lot stronger than when we first came here. I do know that he did get criticized from time to time, though...
Posted by Phillipa on July 7, 2013, at 21:06:44
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 7, 2013, at 17:03:14
Dr Bob I remember if a person posted "think" instead of "feel" it was cause for a warning or a block. Did or does that mean a person isn't allowed to think only feel? Cause the answer to your question to me is I think it's unfair as I did nothing but try. How do I feel? I used to feel hurt but no longer cause I can't change what some decided to think & feel. If I go by what's written about me I'd say it's true of the old group. The new group seems to me to be more understanding and doesn't need a scapegoat. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on July 7, 2013, at 23:00:15
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dinah, posted by Twinleaf on July 7, 2013, at 21:03:20
Thank you for that. :)
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2013, at 7:33:43
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
>
>
> Lou's obviously being used as a scapegoat. But I am sure you know that, don't you?
>
> Friends,
It is written above that ZZDucke sees that it is plainly visible that I am being used as a scapegoat. But it is much more than what you see here. This situation could mark the difference between you killing yourself and/or others arising out of what scapegoating can do to you if you are involved in it. I come here to warn you of what could cause you to go into a vortex of depression and suicidal thinking. This is because in this community, people take mind-altering drugs that can INCREASE suicidal thinking. And they take multiple mind-altering drugs that can increase suicidal thinking exponentially.
When one is involved in scapegoating, there are many psychological dynamics that are set into motion that could draw the scapegoater down into depression and suicide. I have come here to save lives and it has been revealed to me the dynamics that are promoted here that ZZDucke can see also. But what are these things that can be seen that ZZDucke writes as being obvious?
I am prohibited here from posting what IMHHHO could erase any hatred that you may harbor so that you could be free from the captivity of depression and addiction due to the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr. Hsiung. You may already know that I have posted what hate could cause and Mr Hsiung wrote that he does not disagree with what I wrote about that. But Mr Hsiung also wrote that it may be good for the community to see my posts not responded to. If it *may* be good, then it also may be bad. You see, psychologists agree with me concerning scapegoating. Here is a video that explains what scapegoating can do to you if you are in concert with those using me, or anyone else, as a scapegoat.
Lou. To see this video, go to Google and type in:
[ youtube, _RhGcK2M16g ]
there is an underscore in front of the "R"
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Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 2:03:07
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Phillipa on July 7, 2013, at 21:06:44
> I am personally very appreciative that you have begun moderating a bit once again. I realize that it is impossible to get it right in everyone's eyes all the time, but I do appreciate the effort. Occasional might be the way to go, because I do think people remember when they have been given a PBC.
>
> On another thread, you asked if we could commit to posting more on Psychology and Social if you commit to more moderating. I think that's very fair. It is a bit hard to post personal or therapy-related messages on Psychology if they just end up unaknowledged and sitting there all by themselves, but I will do my best. My therapy is now much less intensive than it once was, but I am willing to try if, say, Dinah would do it a bit also!
>
> TwinleafThanks! I know it can be hard to post and not get any replies. One thing posters can do if they don't feel up to starting a thread is to make sure posts by others aren't unacknowledged.
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> And do you take responsibility when people do leave? When the pain here is too great, or the rewards not high enough to put up with the costs? Do you see that as a loss? Do you *feel* that loss?
>
> I've always said that Babble couldn't be all things to all people. That you were *always* making choices about which type of people Babble would be for. I appreciated that in the wild west of the internet, Babble was a place for those who did value civility, who did look for someplace relatively safe.
>
> Perhaps part of what I feel now is anger and hurt that you've made the choice to bring Babble in a new direction and appeal to a different group of posters. As if the ones who wish for civility and safety aren't the ones you're choosing now. Babble used to be welcoming, and is no longer.
>
> DinahI agree, Babble can't be all things to all people. I could focus on the people it helps and feel good, or on the people it doesn't and feel bad. I'd rather feel good. Or, it's inevitable that people aren't helped, so if that happens, I may allow myself not to feel bad, but it's not inevitable that people are helped, so when that happens, I may allow myself to feel good.
If a model is unsustainable, is change a choice? Also, maybe what was needed in the Wild West isn't what's needed in the suburbs.
I don't want to leave old posters behind. I want them to join me in moving forward.
--
> the answer to your question to me is I think it's unfair as I did nothing but try. How do I feel? I used to feel hurt but no longer cause I can't change what some decided to think & feel. If I go by what's written about me ...
>
> PhillipaWhat I was thinking was, if you feel hurt reading what others write, could you stop reading? You can't change what they think or feel or write, but you can change what you read (and maybe think and feel).
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 7:32:03
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 2:03:07
You are reminding me of the teachers at my middle school. They could have done something. But instead they told me that I shouldn't let it bother me. That I shouldn't let them see it hurt. It was my responsibility to change my reaction to the bullying.
I guess that was a sustainable stance for them.
Well, to paraphrase the best of my pdocs, choosing to moderate has consequences and choosing not to moderate has consequences. You've chosen which consequences you prefer.
Again, Dr. Bob, thanks for the years you did moderate.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 9:30:19
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 7:32:03
> You are reminding me of the teachers at my middle school. They could have done something. But instead they told me that I shouldn't let it bother me. That I shouldn't let them see it hurt. It was my responsibility to change my reaction to the bullying.
Is that how you see what happened with laurah? She didn't let it bother her, or didn't show that it bothered her?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 11:35:45
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 2:03:07
> What I was thinking was, if you feel hurt reading what others write, could you stop reading? You can't change what they think or feel or write, but you can change what you read (and maybe think and feel).
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 15:16:46
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 7:32:03
> You are reminding me of the teachers at my middle school. They could have done something. But instead they told me that I shouldn't let it bother me. That I shouldn't let them see it hurt. It was my responsibility to change my reaction to the bullying.
Sometimes authority figures can't be depended upon. Could anybody else have helped?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 18:45:13
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 15:16:46
> Sometimes authority figures can't be depended upon. Could anybody else have helped?
>
> BobI had figured that out myself...
In this situation, the power of others is limited.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2013, at 8:10:15
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 9, 2013, at 18:45:13
> > Could anybody else have helped?
>
> In this situation, the power of others is limited.True. But still they can sometimes help.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 15, 2013, at 8:42:48
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah on July 7, 2013, at 18:13:03
> On another thread, you asked if we could commit to posting more on Psychology and Social if you commit to more moderating. I think that's very fair. It is a bit hard to post personal or therapy-related messages on Psychology if they just end up unaknowledged and sitting there all by themselves, but I will do my best. My therapy is now much less intensive than it once was, but I am willing to try if, say, Dinah would do it a bit also!
>
> Twinleaf> Well, it's true that I would be reluctant to post anything personal at the moment on Babble. But I often overcame that reluctance at times of even greater insecurity. Part of my problem is that my therapy is in a pretty good place, I've learned the golden lesson of communicating with my therapist, and, well....
>
> I can try, but I think it's easier for me to respond than to post.
>
> DinahJust wanted to acknowledge, and thank you, for following through. How does it feel to be posting more again?
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on July 15, 2013, at 9:12:36
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Twinleaf » Dinah, posted by Dr. Bob on July 15, 2013, at 8:42:48
It's always nice to express one's thoughts and feelings in a post, but I am very aware that there is no longer a group sharing common experiences in therapy, as there once was. So, it's a bit lonely and disappointing
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 16, 2013, at 12:58:02
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on July 15, 2013, at 9:12:36
> It's always nice to express one's thoughts and feelings in a post, but I am very aware that there is no longer a group sharing common experiences in therapy, as there once was. So, it's a bit lonely and disappointing
I understand. It's a first step. People will be more likely to share if they think they'll be responded to.
Bob
Posted by larry hoover on August 4, 2013, at 10:39:46
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
> Lou has serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs, and some posters have serious and grave misgivings about Lou.
So this is what you reduced the debate to, Bob? This is the best example of the logical fallacy reductio ad adsurdum that I have seen in a very long time. The issue is unrestrained incivility in posting draining the resources of the community. It's not about Lou's rights, it's about community standards of civility. Do you think that all these fine posters' energy is being spent on this because we're happy? I'll return to the issue of community in a moment, as it is a key concept in attempting to resolve this once and for all.
> Posters have to deal with Lou's misgivings, and I have to deal with the misgivings of posters.
And this, Bob, is a non sequitur. It does not follow, unless you also hold to the unstated premise that doing nothing is the solution.
For a community to be successful, it depends on a collective will to abide by certain standards of organization and control.
First, there must be clear leadership. Ignoring how often you simply disappear, I do not sense leadership from you, at this time. Frankly, I am struggling to obtain a clear concept of your policy, and how you wish to apply it. Admonishing us all by asking us to try harder to tolerate each other more is not leadership. It is condescension, and trivializes the clearly expressed discontent I read in great volume on this board. Many eleoquent and passionate voices expressing that discontent are being ignored.
Second, a community needs clear guidelines of acceptable conduct. Of all the places I've ever been, this place has gone through some of the weirdest experiments of just what that is. Incivility wasn't always something that you could describe, Bob, but somehow, you knew it when you saw it. I can see a clear concensus on what standards of civility are being requested of you, Bob. Just read your own FAQ. But just as a reminder, over-generalization and over-exaggeration are listed examples of incivility.
Third, you need enforcement. Consistent enforcement. Equal enforcement. I am not asking for a return to the days when you tossed out bans like they were candy, but you have let the pendulum swing too far in the other direction. That is on your shoulders, Bob, as you did not create an alternative enforcement policy. You abdicated your resonsibility to us, as the only leader we had. And it is not the community members' responsibility to fix it. It may be humiliating to you to have to fix your problem, but asking us to grow into tolerance is offensive. If I tolerate behaviour that I consider to violate community standards, I am worse than the perpetrator, because I'm letting my community down. Listen, Bob, to the voices of community members asking you to restore THEIR community's standards of civility. A healthy community's leader is a servant to the people within it.
Fourth, there must be consequences. I don't want to see anything like those mathematically formulated bans that bounced people like alex for a year at a time. That was abusive. But that does not mean that you must abandon disciplinary acts altogether. Some people just don't abide by community standards without a little disciplinary response.
Bob, what I think you're asking for, in your quoted statements at the opening of this response, is for something that we're telling you that we don't want to do. The community is powerless to self-manage, under points 2, 3, and 4, as I've laid them out. And the reason for that is point 1.
The buck stops at the top, Bob. I moderate other boards. Sometimes you have to do things that are emotionally hard to do. Time to man up, Bob. Doing the right thing now, even when it clearly should have been done some time in the past, is still doing the right thing.
I can't even believe I posted this. I had a very sleepless night, so I thought that I might as well talk about why that was. I was at Babblefest 2006. I met members of this community. With others, my close relationships were all online. And seeing where this place has gone had me in tears last night. Notwithstanding the excessive discipline that once characterized this place, I prefer that to what is currently revealed to me.
Bob has created a straw-man argument, invoking a false dichotomy between two alternatives, when the truth is that other choices exist. If only he would listen to the community.
Lar
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 4, 2013, at 11:34:35
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by larry hoover on August 4, 2013, at 10:39:46
> > Lou has serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs, and some posters have serious and grave misgivings about Lou.
>
> So this is what you reduced the debate to, Bob? This is the best example of the logical fallacy reductio ad adsurdum that I have seen in a very long time. The issue is unrestrained incivility in posting draining the resources of the community. It's not about Lou's rights, it's about community standards of civility. Do you think that all these fine posters' energy is being spent on this because we're happy? I'll return to the issue of community in a moment, as it is a key concept in attempting to resolve this once and for all.
>
> > Posters have to deal with Lou's misgivings, and I have to deal with the misgivings of posters.
>
> And this, Bob, is a non sequitur. It does not follow, unless you also hold to the unstated premise that doing nothing is the solution.
>
> For a community to be successful, it depends on a collective will to abide by certain standards of organization and control.
>
> First, there must be clear leadership. Ignoring how often you simply disappear, I do not sense leadership from you, at this time. Frankly, I am struggling to obtain a clear concept of your policy, and how you wish to apply it. Admonishing us all by asking us to try harder to tolerate each other more is not leadership. It is condescension, and trivializes the clearly expressed discontent I read in great volume on this board. Many eleoquent and passionate voices expressing that discontent are being ignored.
>
> Second, a community needs clear guidelines of acceptable conduct. Of all the places I've ever been, this place has gone through some of the weirdest experiments of just what that is. Incivility wasn't always something that you could describe, Bob, but somehow, you knew it when you saw it. I can see a clear concensus on what standards of civility are being requested of you, Bob. Just read your own FAQ. But just as a reminder, over-generalization and over-exaggeration are listed examples of incivility.
>
> Third, you need enforcement. Consistent enforcement. Equal enforcement. I am not asking for a return to the days when you tossed out bans like they were candy, but you have let the pendulum swing too far in the other direction. That is on your shoulders, Bob, as you did not create an alternative enforcement policy. You abdicated your resonsibility to us, as the only leader we had. And it is not the community members' responsibility to fix it. It may be humiliating to you to have to fix your problem, but asking us to grow into tolerance is offensive. If I tolerate behaviour that I consider to violate community standards, I am worse than the perpetrator, because I'm letting my community down. Listen, Bob, to the voices of community members asking you to restore THEIR community's standards of civility. A healthy community's leader is a servant to the people within it.
>
> Fourth, there must be consequences. I don't want to see anything like those mathematically formulated bans that bounced people like alex for a year at a time. That was abusive. But that does not mean that you must abandon disciplinary acts altogether. Some people just don't abide by community standards without a little disciplinary response.
>
> Bob, what I think you're asking for, in your quoted statements at the opening of this response, is for something that we're telling you that we don't want to do. The community is powerless to self-manage, under points 2, 3, and 4, as I've laid them out. And the reason for that is point 1.
>
> The buck stops at the top, Bob. I moderate other boards. Sometimes you have to do things that are emotionally hard to do. Time to man up, Bob. Doing the right thing now, even when it clearly should have been done some time in the past, is still doing the right thing.
>
> I can't even believe I posted this. I had a very sleepless night, so I thought that I might as well talk about why that was. I was at Babblefest 2006. I met members of this community. With others, my close relationships were all online. And seeing where this place has gone had me in tears last night. Notwithstanding the excessive discipline that once characterized this place, I prefer that to what is currently revealed to me.
>
> Bob has created a straw-man argument, invoking a false dichotomy between two alternatives, when the truth is that other choices exist. If only he would listen to the community.
>
> LarFriends,
Be advised that I am a subject person that could be identified in the post above. What is written about me can be seen. Be advised that I have posted a lot here about scapegoating and how scapegoating could be deleterious to one's mental health and even cause depression and suicide and murder, as psychologists write about.
If you think that what is written here about me can decrease the respect, regard or confidence in which I am held, or induce disparaging, hostile or disagreeable opinions or feelings against me, then I ask you to understand where the following comes from. I am prevented from posting here concerning that due to the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr Hsiung. Here is the statement:[...For a community to be successful, it depends on a collective will to abide by certain standards of organization and control...].
Lou
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