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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 41. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:44
Taking a giant step BACK from the keyboard and please excuse me for a bit.
I am feeling not the least bit civil in many ways.
pc
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:44
In reply to Orneriness not compatible with the boards., posted by Partlycloudy on December 14, 2008, at 7:15:53
> Taking a giant step BACK from the keyboard and please excuse me for a bit.
>
> I am feeling not the least bit civil in many ways.
>
> pcWe're learning, aren't we? I think I'd fail a personality test here if I stuck to the guidelines of the great one.
Can't feel ornery.
Can't feel uncivil..not a tiny bit.
Can't say anything except positive things about fleas, flies and maggots.
Can't f***.
Can't belch.
Check most fun at the door.
Can't..check...can't...check.Won't you join me in a bit of role-playing in emails? :-) love you, pat
Posted by Racer on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:44
In reply to Re: Orneriness not compatible with the boards. » Partlycloudy, posted by fayeroe on December 14, 2008, at 8:55:07
It's not that you can't *feel* ornery, or uncivil, or whatnot, and it's not that you must say "anything except positive things about fleas, flies and maggots" here.
What matters is expressing oneself in a way which is respectful to others.
I've been trying to come up with an example I can use to illustrate this point, but I think the principle is pretty simple: you can express many things without negatively characterizing alternate viewpoints.
I could say "only a moron puts the toilet paper roll in the holder with the end coming up from underneath," or I could say, "I really find it easier to use the toilet paper if the end comes over the top." One of those is a positive statement of my belief. The other is uncivil. That may be a very silly example, but I figured it was a safe one. (And if it is not, please excuse me.) The principle applies beyond silly examples, though.
And PartlyCloudy, I respect your decision, and hope that taking care of yourself and protecting yourself right now helps you feel better. It's difficult to see you in so much pain, and I very much hope it improves very rapidly.
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:44
In reply to I don't think that's quite accurate, posted by Racer on December 14, 2008, at 14:04:13
I can't say anything civil about your post.
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:44
In reply to I don't think that's quite accurate, posted by Racer on December 14, 2008, at 14:04:13
Posted by 64Bowtie on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:44
In reply to I don't think that's quite accurate, posted by Racer on December 14, 2008, at 14:04:13
>>> What matters is expressing oneself in a way which is respectful to others.
<<< Dictionary.com =~> Honor shown as our sense of worth (who they are) or excellence (what they did) of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: (e.g.) "I respect your judgment"...
<<< Unfortunately toooo much respectfulness is left to the eye of the beholder, leading to chaos and confusion; "Don't be dis'n me!" Yet worth and excellence are standards that are deserved and earned...
<<< Fortunately we have another shared standard which are "Keepers of the word", dictionaries, of which Dictionary.com is a stirling example... Left to the the arbitrary and capricious nature of the lowest common denominator street corner lingo, clarity and good sense begin to suffer, and "Don't be dis'n me", a veiled threat, replaces complimentary honor of the value of the person heard in, "I respect your judgment"...
<<< What's important to me in all this is communication as a vehicle for improving relationships... The shortest distance between two points in a relationship is via clear communication; it even feels better... Yet the adherents to that "street corner sage" lowest common denominator lingo are adamant that feeling part of the crowd is about "feeling better"...
<<< How did we get to the point that "veiled threats" and other coercions offer us better feelings??? There's that notion again, "It's all in the eye of the beholder"... No matter how clearly I see, I'm having trouble finding clarity in so much twisted bramble...
Rod
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
In reply to » Racer » Re: respect and respectful ness » Racer, posted by 64Bowtie on December 15, 2008, at 0:33:29
I think that there is a lot to be said for the tone that is struck on the boards, whatever the message that is conveyed.
There are indeed many ways for us to express ourselves that can be done without shaming, pointing fingers, belittling, and made to feel that we are figuratively being told to stand in a corner. We can be told the very same things with grace, with respect, as a peer, as we are being talked to as an equal, and that is what I should hope that we strive for every day here in this community.When I sense that this is not what I see happening, I am greatly saddened, and feel that I must turn myself away if I don't feel that I can affect the change that I wish to be myself.
That's where my step back from the boards comes from - I cannot be the change that I wish to be right now, and so I feel I must disengage.
But I am not happy, not the least bit happy with what I see happening right here on this thread.
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
In reply to Re: respect and respectful ness » Racer, posted by Partlycloudy on December 15, 2008, at 5:41:12
Respect and trust are earned. If I don't respect myself, it is very difficult to respect others.
I learned from my parents that I won't get respect if I don't give it. (old example, but a good one, you learn that lesson really fast when you're by yourself in a room of 25 felons.There is a situation where things could go
south fast.. proves that all of life is about respect.)
Posted by caraher on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
In reply to Re: respect and respectful ness » Racer, posted by Partlycloudy on December 15, 2008, at 5:41:12
I think the insistence that the civility guidelines *ought* not to be seen as restricting one's ability to express oneself can feel quite invalidating, no matter how beautifully and sensitively expressed.
It seems to me that they in fact do (by design!) limit self-expression. In many circumstances it is helpful for someone to find other ways to express what they think and feel, and I've seen some productive exchanges on Babble where people have explored that. But I don't think there's any use in pretending that, if only we were clever enough about reframing and rephrasing, we could all say what we want to say within the rules. That only heightens the frustration of those who feel stymied.
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
In reply to Re: respect and respectful ness, posted by caraher on December 15, 2008, at 8:54:29
I believe that the Politics Board was a good example of that, Caraher.
Posted by Racer on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
In reply to Re: respect and respectful ness, posted by caraher on December 15, 2008, at 8:54:29
>
> It seems to me that they in fact do (by design!) limit self-expression. In many circumstances it is helpful for someone to find other ways to express what they think and feel, and I've seen some productive exchanges on Babble where people have explored that.Dr Bob's always said, to my knowledge, that honest and open self-expression is often therapeutic, but this ain't necessarily the place to practice it. The idea of reframing and rephrasing has more to do with all those psychological concepts about projection, etc -- that's what the I statements rules are about. Generally, though, this just isn't a place where one can express certain things perhaps as strongly as one might wish. (You'll notice, for example, that I really don't express my political views here -- those who know you will tell you I can't express them without rude language and extremely uncivil tone. My priorities say I have other things to worry about than learning to express my political views within these guidelines, so I just skip it.)
So no, this isn't a place where people are allowed full and free expression. Personally, I think the guidelines are a good idea, because they do protect some of the more vulnerable posters here. I also believe in them because I think they're helpful for teaching a certain sort of communication skill, which I do believe is valuable.
I believe in the civility guidelines enough that I volunteered to become a deputy here. As a result of that decision, I have felt so isolated from other posters that I no longer feel like a poster here, and have not felt like anything except an unpopular monitor since about the time I was "sworn in." And I still think it was worth it, because I still think the deputies here do "protect and serve." Yes, sometimes feelings get hurt. Even those who serve as deputies have feelings, and I can speak for myself in saying that my feelings have included a great deal of pain when I've read some of the things posted about deputies on these boards.
I do find a certain irony, though, when I read posts about how isolating posters find administrative actions...
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
In reply to I don't think that's ever been the claim here » caraher, posted by Racer on December 15, 2008, at 10:22:55
I do find a certain irony, though, when I read posts about how isolating posters find administrative actions...
Can you clarify the above statement?
Am I understanding you when you say that you don't feel like a poster here because you're a deputy? I think that is odd. I guess that could explain some things that have puzzled me for a long time.
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
In reply to I don't think that's ever been the claim here » caraher, posted by Racer on December 15, 2008, at 10:22:55
"Dr Bob's always said, to my knowledge, that honest and open self-expression is often therapeutic, but this ain't necessarily the place to practice it."
Wow!!
Am I understanding you correctly when you say that Bob says that Babble isn't the place to express oneself honestly and openly?
I've long suspected it (and recently saw more evidence of it) but this is the first time that I've seen it laid out so openly here. Generally, I feel that we get the "run around" or just some passive-aggressive manuevering. ( MY feelings...not my opinion) I'm leaving opinions up to the staff.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on December 15, 2008, at 11:18:58
In reply to Re: I don't think that's ever been the claim here » Racer, posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
"Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please be sensitive to their feelings even if yours are hurt. Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged, but your freedom of speech is limited here. It can be therapeutic to express yourself, but this isn't necessarily the place."
This is a direct quote from the FAQ. If you or anyone else has any questions about the guidelines for this site, they may be found in the FAQ.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 15, 2008, at 11:21:17
In reply to Re: respect and respectful ness » Partlycloudy, posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
"I learned from my parents that I won't get respect if I don't give it."
I agree completely. IMO, as poster, this is the very concept behind the civility guidelines.
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 14:16:23
In reply to Re: I don't think that's ever been the claim here » fayeroe, posted by Deputy Dinah on December 15, 2008, at 11:18:58
Clarify where I was disrespectful and no one else was. Thank you.
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 14:17:19
In reply to Re: respect and respectful ness » fayeroe, posted by Dinah on December 15, 2008, at 11:21:17
> "I learned from my parents that I won't get respect if I don't give it."
>
> I agree completely. IMO, as poster, this is the very concept behind the civility guidelines.
>
>Are you saying that I am disrespectful and that is why I am not getting it?
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 14:21:46
In reply to Re: respect and respectful ness » Dinah, posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 14:17:19
No respect for me is what I'm asking in the above post>
Posted by Dinah on December 15, 2008, at 14:36:24
In reply to Re: respect and respectful ness » Dinah, posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 14:17:19
I thought it was a general statement, and I responded to it as a general statement.
Posted by caraher on December 15, 2008, at 16:19:34
In reply to I don't think that's ever been the claim here » caraher, posted by Racer on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
>Even those who serve as deputies have feelings, and I can speak for myself in saying that my feelings have included a great deal of pain when I've read some of the things posted about deputies on these boards.
I'm sorry you've been hurt. It's certainly a thankless task, and I appreciate the effort deputies put into herding cats.
>
> I do find a certain irony, though, when I read posts about how isolating posters find administrative actions...I think it just goes to show that the set of rules is actually inimical fostering the kind of community many of us would like to form.
Posted by Racer on December 15, 2008, at 17:40:16
In reply to Re: Irony - or a sign?, posted by caraher on December 15, 2008, at 16:19:34
>
> I think it just goes to show that the set of rules is actually inimical fostering the kind of community many of us would like to form.I read the rules as protecting people here, and making sure flame wars don't break out, etc. I don't see them as particularly stifling -- and they're certainly not the strictest or more restrictive I've seen on this sort of board! In fact, I've learned a lot about communicating more effectively because of them -- even if that improvement isn't always readily apparent. ;-)
I am very sorry that so many people appear to find the existing guidelines too restrictive to their ability to express their thoughts. As far as the limitations, I guess I just figure I can say those things elsewhere -- no harm, no foul. What I have felt I needed to say at Babble, I could say at Babble.
Overall, I really feel that both Babble and I have benefited from the civility guidelines, and from having them enforced. I'm very sorry that view doesn't seem to be very widely shared. Then again, a single spice doesn't make for a very interesting stew, so maybe it's not such a bad thing when we don't all agree...
Posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 19:55:49
In reply to Re: Irony - or a sign?, posted by caraher on December 15, 2008, at 16:19:34
I think that the board is just going to be what the deputies think that Bob wants it to be. He is never here and I can't imagine how tough that has to be.
I'm outta administration now. It is toxic for me and I'm going back to POlitics and hang out with Sigismund and others.
Posted by Sigismund on December 15, 2008, at 20:30:01
In reply to I don't think that's ever been the claim here » caraher, posted by Racer on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
>As a result of that decision, I have felt so isolated from other posters that I no longer feel like a poster here, and have not felt like anything except an unpopular monitor since about the time I was "sworn in."
Racer, I'm sorry.
It comes with the territory, I guess.Obviously for someone to be suitable to be a deputy they have to be like a monitor, but having said that, they do a very good job in the here and now....the best it has ever been in my time at Babble.
That's really an achievement.
Thank you all.
Posted by 10derHeart on December 15, 2008, at 21:46:21
In reply to Re: I don't think that's ever been the claim here, posted by Sigismund on December 15, 2008, at 20:30:01
Thanks, Sigi, that was a really nice post to read.
I regret that Racer feels so much that way, too. :-(
I do....sometimes...but not nearly as deeply.
I deeply appreciate you bothering to post this. Posting takes effort and energy.
Posted by seldomseen on December 16, 2008, at 5:50:42
In reply to Re: I don't think that's ever been the claim here » Racer, posted by fayeroe on December 15, 2008, at 11:07:45
No, babble is not the place to just say whatever you feel like saying.
Actually, I think that I will take that back. I think you can express just about about anything you want, you just can't express it in an uncivil manner.
I think the thing I like best about babble is that we can't mount ad hominem attacks if we disagree with something.
One of the best books I ever read about communication is called "Getting to Yes" by Roger Fisher. ALthough it is a method book on the art of negotiation, it really is about communication.
One of the tenets of the book is "be hard on the problem, soft on the people" and I think that pretty much summarizes the civility rules here. Reasonable people can disagree and still be repectful of each other.
Although there is a whiff of "you must conform" to these civility rules, overall, I find it very refreshing to visit an internet message board with rules that are actually enforced.
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