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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 83 to 107 of 164. Go back in thread:
Posted by twinleaf on November 9, 2008, at 19:59:31
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by lucie lu on November 9, 2008, at 13:31:34
When I read your post, I realized that you had put into such clear words exactly what I was feeling about the changes in individual and group dynamics which I was afraid might happen with an influx of research study posters. I just wasn't able to express it as clearly as you did- but thank you for writing about it with so much clarity!
The concerns you expressed are exactly the ones I have also.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 9, 2008, at 20:38:20
In reply to Re: Lou's request for an authority-rhlvntfal?, posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2008, at 18:28:36
Hi Phillipa,
Just a friendly reminder, and I am *not* posting in my deputy role as you can see.....but I'm concerned about the appearance of pressuring regarding the topic of not changing names
This is (I think?) the second time you've strongly asked folks not to change their names. Sometimes, if you suggest anything too often and/or word your post in a certain tone, it *might* cause others to feel pressured. I'm not saying I feel pressured - I don't. And I'm not saying or implying anyone has complained.
But, just in case, better safe than sorry?
As I know you know, posters are free to change their names for any reason, and as often as they like here, as long as they follow the guidelines and post on this board that they used to be someone else.
I hope you understand the spirit in which I'm saying this....to avoid problems before they happen.
-- 10der
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 9, 2008, at 20:42:57
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by lucie lu on November 9, 2008, at 13:31:34
> To me, the analogy of the blood samples falls short because the samples exert no effect on one another. The Psych board, in particular, has psychosocial elements that distinguish not only from the blood sample model but also from other boards as well. While not all Psych Babblers share some degree of trauma history and associated interpersonal trust and attachment issues, a significant number have. Many or most are in long-term therapy and have deeply meaningful, often confusing and emotionally intense, relationships with their mental health clinicians. Many find themselves unable to discuss these relationships or issues anywhere else, often not even in the therapy room; in fact, the introduction of new, sensitive material into therapy often follows prior discussion with other Babble members. While the anonymity of Babble facilitates self-disclosure, the emotional safety of the community drives it. A sense of safety is provided by mutual interactions between participants, who have shared very intimate material and provided support and feedback to one another. New members are warmly welcomed and frequently have lurked on the board for some time before actually posting. Thus new members are likely to already know the dynamics and tone of the board before beginning to participate, and they join because of some sense of commonality and shared purpose. This self-screening feature is bypassed by those who join the group from ulterior motives, such as participation in an experiment.
>
> None of the concerns stated on this thread should come as a surprise to anyone familiar with group behavior. A therapeutic community works because it provides safety within a supportive community that encourages productive introspection and interpersonal connections based on a common theme. While an established group can assimilate a few new members at a time, an influx or steady stream of new members destabilizes the group and destroys the existing community altogether. Another group can coalesce from old and new members, but the original community is gone. The loss of the Psych sense of community would be profound for its participants; I am not sure it would be so with most other boards. While the Psych board is not formal group therapy, I believe it shares many of the same group properties and fits the description of a therapeutic community. I believe that a significant subset of Babblers, particularly but not exclusively those with trust issues, will be loath to self-disclose if the intentions of new members are suspect, as they will be in the context of an experimental study. I find it hard to see how the existing community could fail to be significantly impacted by the study conditions, which would indeed seem to defeat its purpose. Not to mention the "do no harm" injunction: although we are not patients and technically not "covered" by this principle, I belive it still should guide responsible actions toward others.lucie lu.
You wrote,[...an influx ..of new members destabilizes the group and destroys the existing community altogether...].
Could you cite an authority that states that? If you could, then I could research that authority and see what else is concluded by that authority and respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Geegee on November 9, 2008, at 21:38:36
In reply to Re: Research project » lucie lu, posted by twinleaf on November 9, 2008, at 19:59:31
I think the group dynamics will be affected by any large influx of new posters. It would be out of the normal day to day happenings here for that many folks to suddenly show and start participating, research participants or not. That's bound to have some kind of effect on the group dynamics, though I don't know whether it would be positive or negative or both.
gg
Posted by no_rose_garden on November 9, 2008, at 21:42:36
In reply to Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2008, at 2:22:01
After chatting w/ some people, I decided that's it's ok. I'm still a little nervous and wondering who the people are, but I guess I'll learn soon enough.
Hopefully it will be ok.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2008, at 23:24:40
In reply to Re: I just don't get all the upset. » seldomseen, posted by Questionmark on November 8, 2008, at 19:46:15
> It's the same day as Dr. Bob's original post. You haven't even waited to give him a chance to try to respond to your questions
I've wanted to respond, but haven't had a chance, sorry. And I'm still reading this thread. I'll post more when I get to the end. Thanks for your patience,
Bob
Posted by Phillipa on November 10, 2008, at 0:04:46
In reply to changing names or not » Phillipa, posted by 10derHeart on November 9, 2008, at 20:38:20
10der gottcha okay sorry. No hat tonight? Just kidding about the hat. Love Phillipa
Posted by Zeba on November 10, 2008, at 0:15:40
In reply to Re: trying to respond, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2008, at 23:24:40
> > It's the same day as Dr. Bob's original post. You haven't even waited to give him a chance to try to respond to your questions
>
> I've wanted to respond, but haven't had a chance, sorry. And I'm still reading this thread. I'll post more when I get to the end. Thanks for your patience,
>
> BobAre you aware that when one receives a babblemail, it says your email address is dr-bob@uchicago.edu???
Posted by Sigismund on November 10, 2008, at 1:30:20
In reply to Re: My contention., posted by rskontos on November 9, 2008, at 13:23:47
It's just like we always search for the soul behind the mask.
And this is an extra mask.
That's all.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2008, at 2:03:06
In reply to Re: trying to respond » Dr. Bob, posted by Zeba on November 10, 2008, at 0:15:40
> Are you aware that when one receives a babblemail, it says your email address is dr-bob@uchicago.edu???
Thanks for letting me know. It should be updated now,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2008, at 2:39:37
In reply to Re: trying to respond, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2008, at 23:24:40
Hi, everyone,
Thanks for letting me know how you feel. :-) I'm trying to be careful about what I say because I don't want to bias the results. But if I'd wanted to set up an environment of secrecy, I wouldn't have said anything! The research participants will be followed for 3 months. 230 is the upper limit. They're not required to come. If they do come, they're not required to post. And they won't all come at once. Yes, it's received IRB approval.
Like you, they'll be real people who come for support and education. Like you, they'll decide whether to ask for help or share joys and sorrows. Like you, they may need help getting oriented and will need to follow the board guidelines. Unlike some of you, they won't be finding this site by themselves. Please treat them the same way you would anyone else referred to this community by a third party. I'd rather let them decide what else to say about themselves. Like with anyone else, you'll decide whether to interact with them. Please don't jump to conclusions about or pressure them. I'm concerned that some newer posters may already be feeling unwelcome.
I see anxiety as a natural result of change, especially with incomplete information. I apologize for not consulting with you all earlier. I think the reaction here was also a sign of the cohesiveness of this community and a desire to protect it from disruption. And I agree, a large influx of new posters could be disruptive. Do you think there should be some sort of limitation?
There may also be anxiety about some posters being favored over others.
I hadn't thought of the archives separately. But they may already be considered a resource for patients or trainees. What concerns do you have about that?
Finally, I agree with Seldom, good can come of this -- for current posters, for new posters, and for the community as a whole. Let's try to be open to that possibility.
Bob
Posted by 10derHeart on November 10, 2008, at 4:25:44
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2008, at 2:39:37
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2008, at 8:05:13
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2008, at 2:39:37
I found that very respectful of posters and their concerns, and I appreciate that.
Posted by Phillipa on November 10, 2008, at 12:28:51
In reply to Thank you » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2008, at 8:05:13
Dr. Bob one more question will they have psychiatric problems or just students wanting to learn? Sometimes I'm dense but I feel 230 all at once would be overwhelming. And will each be given an assigned poster to contact? And how long will each stay. Is it like a week long assignment and then a paper from them on their findings or what they learned. thanks Phillipa
Posted by twinleaf on November 10, 2008, at 13:27:28
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2008, at 2:39:37
Thank you, Dr. Bob. I appreciate you telling us more about the project. I feel that, as you say, in many ways they are going to function exactly as we ourselves do. But there are some differences; as you say, they will come here because it has been suggested to them, not because of their personal wishes. Just this fact alone will be bound to change the group dynamics. I'm sure a number of them will find the site very helpful and will become long-time posters.
I'm assuming that these people will know what the overall purpose of the study is, although they necessarily won't know the details of how it's being conducted. Why can't we know also?
Posted by Sigismund on November 10, 2008, at 13:52:12
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2008, at 2:39:37
>good can come of this -- for current posters, for new posters, and for the community as a whole. Let's try to be open to that possibility.
OK
Posted by Angela2 on November 10, 2008, at 14:08:51
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2008, at 2:39:37
Thanks Dr. Bob for all the info.
I remember being a newbie to PB. Welcome new people!
Posted by Racer on November 10, 2008, at 15:01:56
In reply to Re: Research project » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on November 10, 2008, at 13:27:28
> But there are some differences; as you say, they will come here because it has been suggested to them, not because of their personal wishes.
Except I know that some people who have come here have done so at the "suggestion" of their doctors or therapists. And for some of them, perhaps it wasn't their own wish only because they didn't know of the existence of such boards?
Again -- respect for your views, and I do admire and respect you for your concerns about Babble. I'm only trying to point out that these new people -- assuming they actually post here, which I think is a big assumption -- may not be as different from some of the people here now...
Peace.
Posted by Racer on November 10, 2008, at 15:05:09
In reply to Re: One More Question, posted by Phillipa on November 10, 2008, at 12:28:51
Dr Bob said that these will be people coming here for support and education; the participants will be followed for three months; and the only difference between the new people and the people already here will be that someone suggested they come here.
I hope this eases your concerns.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 10, 2008, at 15:42:49
In reply to I think Dr Bob answered those questions » Phillipa, posted by Racer on November 10, 2008, at 15:05:09
> Dr Bob said that these will be people coming here for support and education; the participants will be followed for three months; and the only difference between the new people and the people already here will be that someone suggested they come here.
>
> I hope this eases your concerns.Racer, hi, don't know if you'll be checking this but I was wondering where I might find the info about 3 months? I haven't read all the posts, etc. Also does he clearly state that the participants are NOT researchers of any kind? They are people working out problems just like us? Do you happen to know when the 3 months begins? Btw, I owe you, and many others, a message, technical difficulties I'm afraid. Up and runnung soon.
Thanks! ~Jade
Posted by JadeKelly on November 10, 2008, at 15:51:16
In reply to Re: questions » Racer, posted by JadeKelly on November 10, 2008, at 15:42:49
Posted by muffled on November 10, 2008, at 17:10:49
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2008, at 2:39:37
> Hi, everyone,
>
> Thanks for letting me know how you feel. :-) I'm trying to be careful about what I say because I don't want to bias the results. But if I'd wanted to set up an environment of secrecy, I wouldn't have said anything! The research participants will be followed for 3 months. 230 is the upper limit. They're not required to come. If they do come, they're not required to post. And they won't all come at once. Yes, it's received IRB approval.*I appreciate you saying something about this. Did you tell us originally out of consideration or because you HAD to to get approval....?
Like as not there may have been some comment if there was allasudden a large influx of posters.
> Like you, they'll be real people who come for support and education. Like you, they'll decide whether to ask for help or share joys and sorrows. Like you, they may need help getting oriented and will need to follow the board guidelines. Unlike some of you, they won't be finding this site by themselves. Please treat them the same way you would anyone else referred to this community by a third party. I'd rather let them decide what else to say about themselves. Like with anyone else, you'll decide whether to interact with them. Please don't jump to conclusions about or pressure them. I'm concerned that some newer posters may already be feeling unwelcome.*So, to rephrase.
The people comming here will be people just like the rest of us, people with mental health issues(though IMHO, EVERYBODY in the WORLD got 'issues' of one kind or another...), comming voluntarily to try out babble, who will possibly be looking for support?
But unlike us, they will be reporting back how it goes for them?(which BTW doesn't bother me).
I am not here so much anymore, but it would definately be a big deal for me, alla this, if this was 'my board' that I hung out at primarily.
That phrase "support and EDUCATION" kinda makes me nervous.....
Yes, I am a tad paranoid.
Also, as ever, you own the rights to what is posted here, so posts here, while (thankfully) anonymous, could be used in a presentation.
> I see anxiety as a natural result of change, especially with incomplete information. I apologize for not consulting with you all earlier. I think the reaction here was also a sign of the cohesiveness of this community and a desire to protect it from disruption. And I agree, a large influx of new posters could be disruptive. Do you think there should be some sort of limitation?*TY for apology. Limitation?How could you ask that? You have the #'s of new posters etc. Likely any huge numbers would be noticed. Its always a bit of time requiered B4 one feels more 'at home' in a community, it will take the new posters a bit of time to feel at home.
> There may also be anxiety about some posters being favored over others.*?this is SO classic Bob, to say something like this.....<sigh>
> I hadn't thought of the archives separately. But they may already be considered a resource for patients or trainees. What concerns do you have about that?*For myself, at one time I kinda liked the thot of the archives, but now I have changed my tune and I do not like the thot. I post on a board where, to my understanding, the archives are only kept for a relatively short period of time. I prefer that. There may come a time (I hope) where I am well enuf that I would rather not have my old 'stuff' ever be possibly connected to me. If its deleted, then it'd GONE, pretty much anyways of course.
> Finally, I agree with Seldom, good can come of this -- for current posters, for new posters, and for the community as a whole. Let's try to be open to that possibility.
*Good can come out of anything. Good can come out me getting the crap beaten outta me...
However, I also hold that growth is painful.
So maybe it will be OK.
I still however will not likely be posting much here, as once again Bob, you have reinforced the fact that you just don't have time to manage babble. Therefore, it remains rather unsafe seeming to me. I personally prefer that Bob NOT be here, but at least he should be more avail when needed, and if not to babblers in general he CERTAINLY should be MUCH more available to his deputies.
I digress.
I am scattered.
But manoman, I am sure impressed with how others responded here, there sure are some wonderful people here :-) and obviously they really care for this community enuf to express their concerns. I think that its cool so many posted to this.
Take care all.
M
Posted by twinleaf on November 10, 2008, at 17:19:41
In reply to Re: Research project, posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2008, at 2:39:37
I do think the archives are a uniquely rich source for people in mental health fields who want to study 1) how an on-line community helps or hinders an individual's experience and progress in therapy, or 2) the emotional reactions, tranferential and otherwise of everyone who is in therapy. As it happened, I was talking about this latter aspect with my analyst this morning, and he said that he thought the day-by-day written notes in the archives about patients' feelings and struggles, the shipwrecks and successes which are recorded there constitute a unique resource for analytically oriented therapists. He said the amount of detail and descriptions of day-to-day feelings is far greater than what is usually available to a therapist- even an analyst like him who works intensively with relatively few patients.
I don't actually know whether he has read Babble. but it would be perfectly acceptable to me if he did. And I don't mind at all if anything I've written- now in the archives- is used for any educational or therapeutic purpose. All I need is continued anonymity, which I feel certain I will always have.
Posted by Nadezda on November 10, 2008, at 17:47:31
In reply to Re: Research project » twinleaf, posted by Racer on November 10, 2008, at 15:01:56
Racer:
"I'm only trying to point out that these new people -- assuming they actually post here, which I think is a big assumption -"...
...What if no one showed up? Wouldn't it be a letdown? I personally expect to us to be flooded with eager research participants. I not only expect and dread it, but will be terribly disappointed if nothing happens.
Just a thought.
Nadezda
Posted by BayLeaf on November 10, 2008, at 18:24:11
In reply to Um, wouldn't it be ironic if... » Racer, posted by Nadezda on November 10, 2008, at 17:47:31
If they are young and used to pretty interfaces (and aren't we all at this point?)....this place will make them laugh. It still sorta cracks me up.
Bay
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