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Posted by Gabbi-2 on April 23, 2007, at 13:26:14
In reply to (((((((Dinah))))))), posted by Bobby on April 22, 2007, at 16:16:03
Dinah, it *hurts* to see some of the things you've been accused of and \the statements made to you. At times reading them I've felt I've been punched in the stomach, they just seemed so uncalled for and inexcusably ... low.
If I thought it would make a difference I'd point out posts that prove you are unbiased. I've been P.B.C'd by you more than once, and twice it was because I was in my own rather blinded way defending you : )
I've admired your objectivity, empathy straightforwardness and appreciation of diversity since I've known you, they are qualities that I think shine in you--the reasons I noticed you, and wanted to get to know you, not something I claim to see now because I'm part of some nebulous "In group" It seems impossible to me that they are qualities not seen as clearly to everyone else.
I've mentioned you in particular because I've known you the longest, but all the deputies I think do a fair and fine job, and GG I know is always examining and re examing her actions that's not the behaviour of someone on a power trip.
Never have I seen it as some sort of perverse power trip. A few P.B.C's and a very few blocks, a power trip? Really? That idea actually seems kind of funny to me. It's like what? you get all puffed up over managing to beat your quota of P.B.Cs...
"Well I sure showed *that* screename A P.B.C and a "Please Be Sensitive" she won't be messing with the likes of me again" *Shine badge*Makes me tilt my head to the side like a dog that heard a weird noise.
I can't say anything else because I've not been wording things well lately.
But To all the deputies, it seems at times you're not seen as people at all, especially not as people who cope with the same struggles and illness and insecurities that the rest of us do. I'm so sorry for the pain and bewilderment you must so often have felt.
I know I've felt it on your behalf many times
Posted by karen_kay on April 23, 2007, at 15:01:35
In reply to Thank you, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2007, at 20:40:23
dinah sweetheart,
gabbi said it all for me. (and so much better too. how does she do it?)
you're so very wonderful.
thankless job be damned! i'm happy you're here, doing it. babbleland is a better place with you here. and i don't see how you are able to be so patient. see how you're my mentor?
many of those fake hugs ((((((((((((((dinah)))))))))) but, they are so very sincere (and you'd smell my stinky armpits if i were giving you one. i might even be tempted to pinch your butt. would that be ok? even jsut once?)
take care of your wonderful self. and you are always so apt at handling this pressure cooker i like to call babble.
again, that stupidmax is getting to me and am fidning myself not nearly as clever as i thought i once was, so i'll jsut say, i adore you dinah. no miscommunication there!
kk
Posted by Gabbi-2 on April 23, 2007, at 15:34:30
In reply to Re: I think this is premature » Racer, posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2007, at 23:01:33
Phillipa people have always said this board has "changed" it's different now, it's not as good now.. and when I look back at the very beginning of Babble, when I wasn't a member, I can see that at the outset it was significantly different and I envy those early members for what they had.
After that early period though, as more joined of course there have been changes, ups and downs because it's not a "BOARD" it's people, and anything made up of people is going to change
There have always been those people (not just the ones who email you) who've said that they are leaving because of this and that, and some do, and some are having a bad time and need a break and end up coming back even years later.. some never do, it's just the way it works.. it's life, people have been predicting the end of babble for as long as I've been here, It's unsettling for those who depend on babble to hear those things, spare a thought for them okay?
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2007, at 16:39:49
In reply to (((((((Dinah))))))) Deputies, posted by Gabbi-2 on April 23, 2007, at 13:26:14
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2007, at 16:43:10
In reply to Re: Thanks for the opening--I am taking a leave, posted by TexasChic on April 22, 2007, at 20:40:26
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2007, at 16:44:55
In reply to Thank you, gg » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2007, at 20:49:08
I'm not going anywhere, and I like you too much to not chat with you. :)
Thanks for being a friend and a huge source of support.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2007, at 16:46:33
In reply to Re: Well, posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2007, at 21:07:00
Babble's going to be fine, Phillipa. Thanks for saying you'll miss me. I'm still around via babblemail or email, remember. :)
gg
Posted by Phillipa on April 23, 2007, at 18:45:04
In reply to Re: Well » Phillipa, posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2007, at 16:46:33
GG sure will. Love Phillipa to a special person
Posted by Scratchpad on April 23, 2007, at 19:52:21
In reply to Thanks for the opening--I am taking a leave, posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2007, at 17:29:58
Thank you for always being there for me!
sp
Posted by Scratchpad on April 23, 2007, at 19:56:05
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble... » tofuemmy, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2007, at 13:22:04
I've always thought that you are the ultimate role model of a deputy. You were certainly my inspiration for wanting to be one - I had hoped that I could have made an ongoing and objective contribution to babble by being one.
I thank you for all the hard work that you do here.
sp
Posted by Scratchpad on April 23, 2007, at 20:09:03
In reply to (((((((Dinah))))))) Deputies, posted by Gabbi-2 on April 23, 2007, at 13:26:14
>
> But To all the deputies, it seems at times you're not seen as people at all, especially not as people who cope with the same struggles and illness and insecurities that the rest of us do. I'm so sorry for the pain and bewilderment you must so often have felt.
>This is exactly why I decided I couldn't perform as a deputy.
I got so sad reading this thread.sp
Posted by Aunt Virginia on April 23, 2007, at 20:14:32
In reply to Re: Deputies » Gabbi-2, posted by Scratchpad on April 23, 2007, at 20:09:03
Does suggesting that a particular person is ill qualified for a particular task imply that person is not human?
Does suggesting that a person has been recruited to perform a task that might injure that person or others imply the person performing the task is not human?
Posted by Aunt Virginia on April 23, 2007, at 20:57:53
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble... » tofuemmy, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2007, at 13:22:04
>>> And I do want to give up.
Tell us more about that.
>>> I really don't understand how people can believe the things they're saying, when if what they were saying was true, how could the administrative board looks like it does right now?Are you saying those people are not understandable, that you are unable to understand those people or that for some reason you have not asserted the will to understand those people? Are you suggesting with the phrase "if what they were saying was true" that what those people *are* saying might not be true? How is it that you assert your view of how the board looks as fact while you relegate others view to a questionable status at best?
>>>If you see who is certainly not blocked, and not even pbc'd, how can it be said that we weild hammers on those who disagree with us?
Is that a rhetorical question? It can be said because people believe it to be true, that's how.
>>> If you look at my PBC's over the past few days, how can it be seen as favoritism?If you expressed some understanding of the other person's views, they might be more willing to entertain yours. To respond to another's reasons with the statement "How can you say that" can lead some to conclude that you have not been listening.
>>> I try so hard to do what is right, because doing what is right is important to me.
What seems important to you is doing what you believe is right, and presuming that your sense of right and wrong applies to the entire universe. Others hold vastly different values.
>>> I cry when I read posts, but I don't retaliate with blocks or PBC's. I only give them when something is in violation of the civility guidelines of this site.
You act when you perceive things to be such. Your action does not make them such. You do seem eager to represent yourself to others as an infallible justice. Were you perchance forced in your childhood to accept the supposed infallibility of a caregiver?
>>> But I do want to give up. I feel so hurt. So many people saying these things are people I've spent time with in chat, people I've tried to be supportive to over the years.
Did you believe your effort to offer what you believed was support would grant you a blanket of immunity against criticism when you took on an authoritarian role?
>>>People who should know that not only do I not act vindictively, but I go out of my way to not hold grudges.
In the dynamics of authoritarian groups, sometimes one member of the ruling body serves as secretary, holding grudges and patterning acceptable methods of masking authority with civility. Another might act as ambassador and fixer, constantly affirming the unquestionable good of the authority. Another might serve as the critic, entertaining criticisms from outsiders and even offering criticisms from within, creating an appearance of self-examination that might not always bear the fruit of true self-examination. Just some interesting dynamics to consider.
>>> How many times have I responded supportively when I didn't have to, and when I could have thought I had reason not to. But I try not to think of individual acts and to see a person as the whole of who they are. I try to see the good people are to others, even if they don't particularly seem to care for me.
My, you seem like a really good person. At least you say you are. Why do you feel the need to convince others of your personal worth?
>>> I do want to give up.Maybe that would be best, at least insofar as your role as a deputy here is concerned.
>>> There are other deputies, and maybe they don't feel so hurt, and maybe they don't feel so discouraged.
Or maybe acting as "deputy" to a psychiatrist who says he created the best of two worlds by separating administrative from supportive roles, but who then merged the roles while withdrawing his involvement,
...only to return occasionally to apologize for not being around and to hastily make yet more rules in response to whatever situation he steps into at the moment he found convenient to drop by,
...rules that not even Solomon could interpret fairly,
...maybe that trained professional,
...insulated by his wealth and job security,
...unfamiliar with Western colloquialisms that let his deputies violate his rules with impunity by using constant backhanded insults,
...colloquial attack styles familiar to an economic and geographic culture he has never been part of,
...has put you in an untenable position he utterly lacks the comprehension to appreciate. Maybe you have been abused by someone who asked you to do a job he couldn't do himself, even with his extensive training.The problem might be an inappropriate tolerance for and exploitation of transference. Especially if one can use extended networks to recruit members with just that need, Mr. Hsiung might have selected members who consider his efforts, no matter how flawed in part, to inevitably be useful, despite evidence to the contrary, because they need to believe their parent's authoritarian roles were appropriate. And maybe Mr. Hsiung's ego won't let him fairly balance the harm he causes with whatever good results, and prevents him from realizing people who say they get help here would get the same help elsewhere if not distracted and seduced by this forum.
>>> And I can see how this can be read all wrong too. Dinah thinking she's so good, Dinah putting down others. When all I'm trying to express is Dinah hurting and Dinah trying to do what is right despite hurting.Who is Dinah hurting? Could Dinah stop hurting if she decided to? Would Dinah not hurt if she didn't insist that her preferred self-image govern all other's perceptions of her?
Posted by greywolf on April 23, 2007, at 21:24:30
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble..., posted by Aunt Virginia on April 23, 2007, at 20:57:53
Wow. I'm at a loss for words after reading this thread. I must be the only one who is completely missing all these supposedly arbitrary, biased, or thoughtless actions by the deputies.
The degree of bitterness and anger being directed at these volunteer administrators seems seriously out of proportion to any real problems.
Whether or not any particular person's contentions have serious merit, I can say without question that the way some people are expressing their dissatisfaction is saddening to me and others. Your points may be well taken with respect to the particularities of your complaints, but they're lost in the hurtful effects of your confrontational tone.
I'd like to see everyone grab a cup of coffee and take 5 minutes to write something nice about Babble, the deputies, or your fellow Babblers. I bet a lot of people would be heartened to hear some good things about this place and the people who devote their time to it.
Greywolf
Posted by Gabbi-2 on April 23, 2007, at 21:35:47
In reply to Re: Deputies, posted by Aunt Virginia on April 23, 2007, at 20:14:32
> Does suggesting that a particular person is ill qualified for a particular task imply that person is not human?
>
Which persons humanity is in question? I do Sometimes I wonder about those people with the compulsion to "suggest" that which is unsolicitated.
Okay.. "suggesting" is often used as a transparent euphemism. I don't think often one actually "suggests someone isn't fit" but b*tches about their every move.A "helpful suggestion" about performance may be recieved when one asks for input. However I don't think suggesting as above is indicating lack of humanness. I'd certainly question where the need to "suggest" this arises though.
In my experience the need to critique is often squarely within the person "suggesting" or an idiosyncratic personal annoyance that demands justification by finding fault in the "annoyee"
Now, concern is another of my favourite euphemisms. In my place of work it was always used as a preface to gossip. "We're just concerned about her" yeah.. right.
Whether or not a role is good for ones health I believe is up to that person to decide.
Not knowing the context of course, I don't know if these things even happened.
I can't say for sure, but I don't understand why these suggestions would be considered helpful, necessary, or really anything but ill-mannered sniping. They were not what I was thinking of in particular when I was speaking of the deputies not being seen as human.> Does suggesting that a person has been recruited to perform a task that might injure that person or others imply the person performing the task is not human?
Posted by zazenducke on April 23, 2007, at 21:47:05
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble..., posted by greywolf on April 23, 2007, at 21:24:30
> Wow. I'm at a loss for words after reading this thread. I must be the only one who is completely missing all these supposedly arbitrary, biased, or thoughtless actions by the deputies.
I believe many of these posts in this thread have been quite complimentary.
>
> The degree of bitterness and anger being directed at these volunteer administrators seems seriously out of proportion to any real problems.Bitterness and anger are your perceptions and your judements of what others are feeling. don't you think the problems are real to the people who post about them? Would you be upset if others accused the deputies of bitterness and anger?
>
> Whether or not any particular person's contentions have serious merit, I can say without question that the way some people are expressing their dissatisfaction is saddening to me and others. Your points may be well taken with respect to the particularities of your complaints, but they're lost in the hurtful effects of your confrontational tone.Could you explain who in particular you're talking about? I have participated in this thread as have many others. I believe making sweeping negative statements about a group of unspecified individuals is not likely to be helpful. I don't feel supported or educated myself.
>
> I'd like to see everyone grab a cup of coffee and take 5 minutes to write something nice about Babble, the deputies, or your fellow Babblers. I bet a lot of people would be heartened to hear some good things about this place and the people who devote their time to it.I believe much of this thread has been devoted to saying complimentary things to the deputies. But I'm ok with your request.
Babble is kept up very well technically. Lots of people care about each other. There is some tolerance of different view points if presented in Babble-approved style. the deputies devote quite a bit of time to this. OK your turn :)
>
> Greywolf
Posted by zazenducke on April 23, 2007, at 22:00:56
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble..., posted by Aunt Virginia on April 23, 2007, at 20:57:53
>...unfamiliar with Western colloquialisms that let his deputies violate his rules with impunity by using constant backhanded insults,
...colloquial attack styles familiar to an economic and geographic culture he has never been part of,Well that's an interesting theory but where on earth did you get that information? Admittedly he does seem to miss some things but couldn't he just have Asperger's or be a math major or something?
I don't want to be accusatory are cause you to feel pressured but are you by any chance Bob's ex-wife?
Posted by greywolf on April 23, 2007, at 22:13:24
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble... » greywolf, posted by zazenducke on April 23, 2007, at 21:47:05
My statement was not "sweeping" in any sense. I expressly limited my reference to "some" posts, not all of them.I believe that bitterness and anger are legitimate and understandable feelings for everyone at many points in life. However, SOME posters in this and other threads in recent days have, in my opinion, directed those feelings at other people participating in Babble. In my view, it matters not whether the person expressing such views is a Babbler or a Babbler deputy--I find it unsettling in either circumstance.
You may legitimately disagree with me or you may not react as strongly as I do to what I perceive as unnecessarily confrontational posts. Perhaps that is why the rules here ask people to be more moderate in their posts than would be expected on other sites.
Posted by Aunt Virginia on April 23, 2007, at 22:27:17
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble..., posted by greywolf on April 23, 2007, at 21:24:30
> Wow. I'm at a loss for words after reading this thread. I must be the only one who is completely missing all these supposedly arbitrary, biased, or thoughtless actions by the deputies.
Let's break it down again, then. Here, we are told "you're lucky to even get to talk about it at all.">>> I really don't understand how people can believe the things they're saying, when if what they were saying was true, how could the administrative board looks like it does right now?
Maybe you, greywolf, didn't grow up in a disfunctional abusive household and you enjoy the pleasant privilege of not having to recognize common patterns of oppression when you see them. For those of us educated in youth how to deploy these devices, they are as evident as the meaning of any other language. And if you suspect that the conflict that brings us to confront those patterns here extends far beyond this forum, you are absolutely right.That is why you see euphemism so shamelessly turned on those here who use it against us under some color of authority. We consider educating people how and why to confront officious euphemistic put-downs to be very supportive of those who have a chance of achieving some sort of healthy mental condition. Confronting the contagion is not nearly so threatening to those who know the full risk of the disease.
Posted by madeline on April 23, 2007, at 22:30:05
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble..., posted by greywolf on April 23, 2007, at 21:24:30
I'm afraid that I could not agree with you more.
I just couldn't figure out a way to say it.
Posted by TexasChic on April 23, 2007, at 22:32:01
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble... » zazenducke, posted by greywolf on April 23, 2007, at 22:13:24
I think everyone should be able to express their opinions, but you have to keep in mind the environment we are in. What we read is by no means the opinion of all who come here. One thing I've found in posting here is there are way more people reading what I write than I ever imagined. Not everyone feels comfortable posting their feelings, no matter how strongly they may feel them. Just because things may seem to be going a certain way according to the posts doesn't mean that's how things actually are. I don't know if I'm explaining what I'm trying to say well or not, but if nothing else, take a step back and consider the vastness of the internet and how easily things can become misconstrued. It wouldn't take many posts to make it seem as if everyone feels a certain way about things.
-T
Posted by Gabbi-2 on April 23, 2007, at 22:38:00
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble..., posted by Aunt Virginia on April 23, 2007, at 20:57:53
When has Dinah ever implied that her idea of right applies to the whole universe. Was that a dream you had? She's the absolute opposite.
I'm serious.
You're getting involved with an "imaginary" adversary. Criticizing because someone believes something to be true is not based in reason, it's based in the desire to criticize and make up facts as you go along. Providing a factual basis from which to base your criticisms the only way to reason.YOU know as well as I do, that when anyone has their integrity assualted yes even someone with TRUE integrity they will have the desire to defend themselves, implying that it's any more than that, well that is a really tired old form of **** my mom uses it as a last resort frequently.
My mother has no friends.It's been more than rules being questioned here, there have been cruel underhanded cheap assaults on all the deputies, this has little to do with reasonable conscientous objection to the rules.
to that I've Dinah seen being particulary respectful and lenient within her power as deputy, *yes the breaking of the rules by a conscientous objector*
Brio-de Chimp on psychology about 2years ago
And I need to add that I just got TWO P.B.C's one from Dinah yesterday for defending the deputies.
Posted by greywolf on April 23, 2007, at 23:29:25
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble..., posted by Aunt Virginia on April 23, 2007, at 22:27:17
I am fortunate to have grown up in a household that was not abusive. Unfortunately, that has not allowed me the "pleasant privilege" of living life in ignorance of the many ways people can mistreat each other. That naivete was ripped from me long ago.
Like others, I spend an inordinate amount of my life simply trying to live. I have not succeeded in finding any real degree of happiness within myself, and I think the best I'll ever be able to do is try to avoid causing sadness for others. Unfortunately, I have failed all too often even at that, and I know enough about my own failures to recognize situations that may be hurtful to others.
I can talk about symptoms and meds, but I find it very difficult to discuss how badly I've failed to make something meaningful of my life. If I'm not contributing anything meaningful here, it is simply a reflection of my daily life.
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2007, at 2:04:26
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble... » Aunt Virginia, posted by greywolf on April 23, 2007, at 23:29:25
> If I'm not contributing anything meaningful here, it is simply a reflection of my daily life.
>
>I just want you to know that I think you contribute a lot to this site. Thank you for your kindness and good sense.
Racer, not posting as a deputy
Posted by zazenducke on April 24, 2007, at 5:28:58
In reply to Re: What will happen to Babble... » tofuemmy, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2007, at 13:22:04
> If you see who is certainly not blocked, and not even pbc'd, how can it be said that we weild hammers on those who disagree with us?
>http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070304/msgs/751786.html
Is this the post you were referring to?
GabbiGabbi says below she was PBCed for defending deputies.
I thought she meant people who were objecting to the rules were wielding the hammers.
I hope you feel better and we can return to administrative issues soon.
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