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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 18, 2006, at 2:48:18
In reply to Re:Credit for time served?? » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducky on October 23, 2006, at 20:05:49
> So she served ... 45 days -28 day sentence= 17 days over the revised sentence?
>
> At the very least you should deduct it from your new 12 week sentence shouldn't you?OK, rounded, that's 2 weeks, I'll deduct that from her current block. Which initially was 9 weeks, but later was extended to 36 weeks, so that makes it 34 weeks.
Bob
Posted by zazenducky on November 18, 2006, at 13:59:24
In reply to Re:Credit for time served??, posted by Dr. Bob on November 18, 2006, at 2:48:18
...So she served 3 weeks of a block you cancelled plus 45 days -28 day sentence= 17 days over the revised sentence? Is that correct? This would be a total of over 5 weeks unjustly blocked wouldn't it?
I suggest that since it was your mistake you deduct it from your new "sentence" before tripling it. At the very least you should deduct it from your new 12 week sentence shouldn't you?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061018/msgs/697098.html
> > So she served ... 45 days -28 day sentence= 17 days over the revised sentence?
> >
> > At the very least you should deduct it from your new 12 week sentence shouldn't you?
>
> OK, rounded, that's 2 weeks, I'll deduct that from her current block. Which initially was 9 weeks, but later was extended to 36 weeks, so that makes it 34 weeks.
>
> Bob
Dr Bob you omitted the 3 weeks served for a block that was rescinded which added to the two weeks is five weeks. Additionally this mistake occurred before you began whatever process led you to 36 weeks. It is reasonable to deduct the five weeks at the beginning. This would be nine weeks minus five weeks all ready served which is four weeks.For unknown reasons you multiplied by 4. This would be recalculated as 4 x 4 =16 weeks.
Posted by muffled on November 24, 2006, at 23:42:06
In reply to Re:Credit for time served??, posted by Dr. Bob on November 18, 2006, at 2:48:18
I missed something.
How the hell did Alexs block get to 36 weeks????
I only knew bout the 9 weeks or whatever.
What the f*ck happened?
This is b*llshit.
There should be a cap.
I am SO f*cking mad at this CRAP.
WTF does Bob NOT get about isolating and turning your back on someone. That is SUCH SH*T.
Mental health. Ya its like Gov't mental health here. If you sick they lock you up, then drug you up, to shut you the f*ck up, cuz they don't wanto deal with you.
SHUT THE F*CKING CRAZIES UP, is that what its about????????????????????????????Then you better tell me to shut the f*ck up too, cuz I crazy as a f*cking loon.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2006, at 9:42:33
In reply to HUH???? » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on November 24, 2006, at 23:42:06
> Mental health. Ya its like Gov't mental health here. If you sick they lock you up, then drug you up, to shut you the f*ck up, cuz they don't wanto deal with you.
> SHUT THE F*CKING CRAZIES UP, is that what its about????????????????????????????Then you better tell me to shut the f*ck up too, cuz I crazy as a f*cking loon.I'm sorry she's blocked, too. But the issue isn't being crazy, it's being civil.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2006, at 10:09:34
In reply to Please recheck calculation Dr Bob » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducky on November 18, 2006, at 13:59:24
> Dr Bob you omitted the 3 weeks served for a block that was rescinded which added to the two weeks is five weeks.
Sorry, I missed that question at the end before. It was only that block's effect on her next block that was rescinded.
Bob
Posted by muffled on November 26, 2006, at 11:29:13
In reply to Re: crazy as a loon, posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2006, at 9:42:33
>I'm sorry she's blocked, too. But the issue isn't being crazy, it's being civil.
**Yo, sup with the B&W thinking Bob?
NOTHING is that simple. You can't just make people fit the box. Thats part of being nuts, you DON'T FIT THE BOX. I thot this website was supposed to be a safe place to get support.
Its not so safe here Bob.
Do you not recognize that blocks are very triggering for both the blockee AND for other posters.
I am working like a bastard to control myself.
I work at a drop in center, and if the clientele don't behave they get the boot for a day, or even a week. Its only for fighting, or dealing, or using inside . It has to be major, as we don't wish to exclude, we wish to show unconditional love, but with boundaries of course or its not a safe place for people to come to.
We do lots of PBC's too. But multiple PBC's, and blocked only if really bad behavior, to the point of actually getting hazardous to others or the continiuing of the center. There are alot of addictions and people with mental health probs go thru there. We don't end up with alot of resentment, because the blocks are obviously understandable.I think you block over stuff thats not such a big deal. Where repeated warnings would be better, except in REALLY overt cases.
If I were to bypass the asterisk and write f*ck, would I be blocked? If I did that, it would be because I was extreemly angry, and was trying to be 'bad', without being too bad.
At the drop in center, if people do something like cussing out a volunteer, they out for the day only usu, cuz its just words and not threats. There's such a huge difference btwn actually attempting or threatening to hurt someone, and just expressing frustration, in not perhapsd the best way, but not the worst way either.
I beleive in a cap for blocks because anything much more than a week is WAY too ostracizing to a person.
I know there are other ways to connect, but its not the same. You are still ostracized, and ashamed before all. And that after exposing some of who you really are.
Your site has many good points Bob. Thank you.
But IMO the ease and severity of blocks is an ongoing and serious problem that you need to address.
Muffled
Posted by madeline on November 26, 2006, at 12:32:48
In reply to Re: crazy as a loon » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on November 26, 2006, at 11:29:13
I was hoping for a two week cap on blocks, but you are right at one week would be better.
Go muffled!
Maddie
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2006, at 3:39:29
In reply to Re: crazy as a loon » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on November 26, 2006, at 11:29:13
> You can't just make people fit the box. Thats part of being nuts, you DON'T FIT THE BOX. I thot this website was supposed to be a safe place to get support.
I try to keep it as safe here as possible. But unfortunately some people at some times may not fit this box.
> IMO the ease and severity of blocks is an ongoing and serious problem that you need to address.
Thanks for pushing for improvement. I agree, we need to keep working on the blocking system. But while we do that, is there some way we can help posters not get blocked? That would be a great way to support them. You could see it as a dialectic, trying at the same time to expand the box and to help people fit in it.
Or, looking at it another way, maybe we should just rely less on blocking. But then what would we rely on instead?
Bob
Posted by Jost on November 27, 2006, at 10:20:55
In reply to Re: fitting the box, posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2006, at 3:39:29
you could rely on more consistent PBCs, shorter and more frequent blocks--
more specific, individualized responses when people get close to or go over line in misdemeanor ways (which most are)-- not just a formulaic phrase-- or an impersonal block
asking people to go to chat and talk through what's going on with them, before blocking them -- and only blocking them for shorter periods of time--
not having this blind system of escalating blocks--
Stop the system of doubling blocks. Doubling IMO doesn't make sense-- much shorter blocks would give everyone more incentive (and possibility) to keep Babble a consistent place where people can be involved and get support, response--even if they lose it in relatively non-threatening or containable ways
Jost
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2006, at 18:42:59
In reply to Re: fitting the box, posted by Jost on November 27, 2006, at 10:20:55
> more consistent PBCs, shorter and more frequent blocks--
>
> more specific, individualized responses
>
> asking people to go to chat
>
> not having this blind system of escalating blocks--
>
> Stop the system of doubling blocks.Thanks for replying. Those are all changes we can and should discuss (and in some cases have already started to discuss). But they all rely on me (and the deputies) and would be what I was referring to as "expanding the box". Is there anything that wouldn't rely on us and would be "helping people fit the box"?
Bob
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 2, 2006, at 20:03:22
In reply to Re: fitting the box, posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2006, at 18:42:59
Dr. Bob,
Whatever Alex did, we cannot even debate, as the posts or babblemails or whatever are not open for public viewing.This is not about Alex. It's a bigger issue of keeping things safe. I think a maximum block length of 2 weeks is really all that is necessary to promote safety.
I worry that many folks with strong views or quick tempers find themselves in trouble initially for a relatively minor offense. After a few blocks, however, some posters might get frustrated at the system. It's easy to lose one's judgement when one is angry.
Blocks are angry-makers. Angry babblers get blocked.
Where's the support there? How can I offer support to an angry babbler who's really struggling to understand why they got into hot water? How can I offer support to a person who not only has the original issue of mental illness to cope with, but the added stress of an uncertain support network, one that does not seem designed to allow their participation?
Your blocks affect all babblers Dr. Bob. I'm disappointed right now because I was looking forward to Alex's return. She has always been really supportive of me, and has helped me understand a lot of my issues. She knows a lot about the nerdy stuff that I like, and I think she's got a lot of good things to say to all kinds of folks. I feel punished by her absence. Collateral Damage.
It also disrupts the continuity of the psycho-babble community when regular posters come back from a block and are angry and upset, and when they leave the forum and we can't hope to change your mind about their "sentence".
I don't understand why there are so many LONG blocks. I don't understand how Babble feels "Safer" because posters can be blocked for 6 months at a time. Actually I feel more scared and anxious, because this harsh punishment may one day be meted out to me.
-ll
Posted by muffled on December 2, 2006, at 22:55:49
In reply to Re: fitting the box, posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2006, at 18:42:59
> > more consistent PBCs, shorter and more frequent blocks--
> >
> > more specific, individualized responses
> >
> > Stop the system of doubling blocks.
>
But they all rely on me (and the deputies) and would be what I was referring to as "expanding the box". Is there anything that wouldn't rely on us and would be "helping people fit the box"?**Yes, give them a CHANCE to adapt THEMSELVES into the box.Perhaps with the help of other babblers.
Sometimes posters have been pbc'd or blocked before they've even HAD a chance to settle things amongst themselves. Its like you guys don't trust us to sort things out for ourselves. Mebbe you guys need to take a step BACK, and not intervene unless it seems to be really getting out of hand. We babblers can LEARN from these events. This might perhaps result in more blocks, but if they are only(seems VERY long at the time)a week, then its not as much of an issue. The blocks also would be more understandable also as presumably they might be quite blatant...
Part of the reason babblers hesitate to help other babblers is cuz they afraid they'll somehow say something wrong and get blocked for their efforts.
And now I have discovered that is IS possible to stay within the magic civility guidelines, and STILL make other posters crazy. So much for civility. Sigh.
So instead of expanding the box, or forcibly shoving us into said box, mebbe let us fit ourselves into the box. And this may be a learning curve. BUT LET US LEARN. Long blocks are nothing but excessive penalization.
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2006, at 1:38:33
In reply to Re: fitting the box » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on December 2, 2006, at 22:55:49
> give them a CHANCE to adapt THEMSELVES into the box.Perhaps with the help of other babblers.
> Part of the reason babblers hesitate to help other babblers is cuz they afraid they'll somehow say something wrong and get blocked for their efforts.First, what specifically could other Babblers do to help them adapt?
You're right, there isn't incentive for them to try to help if they're just going to get blocked themselves. So those trying to help might need help, too?
Bob
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 8, 2006, at 10:35:03
In reply to Re: fitting the box with help, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2006, at 1:38:33
> > give them a CHANCE to adapt THEMSELVES into the box.Perhaps with the help of other babblers.
> > Part of the reason babblers hesitate to help other babblers is cuz they afraid they'll somehow say something wrong and get blocked for their efforts.
>
> First, what specifically could other Babblers do to help them adapt?
>
> You're right, there isn't incentive for them to try to help if they're just going to get blocked themselves. So those trying to help might need help, too?
>
> BobIf another babbler is talking about a topic that is starting to drift off towards uncivil-land, another babbler might do several things
1) try to distract the to-be-blocked babbler by switching topics
2) try to explain a different point of view to the to-be-blocked babbler (civilly)
3) try to support the to-be-blocked babbler and figure out why they are angry/lashing out. Perhaps it's because they need attention and support, and once they can get that attention and support, they will not feel like lashing out.
4) try to help the to-be-blocked babbler understand that they are in danger of getting blocked. I feel like many blocks may be perceived as a complete surprise. Unexpected. Us "mentally ill folks" may not always have the clearest sense of when we are committing incivilities.5) exchange babblemails with the purposes (1-4) above. once blocked, a babblemail dialog is no longer possible. In the past when I have misunderstood something or someone, I often prefer to try to figure out what's going on in private, rather than cause a tangent of the main thread that revolves around a dispute. Public disagreements have a way of escalating sometimes, even when the original misunderstanding/incivility was very minor. Indeed, once a thread becomes a place to air grievances and throw out opposing viewpoints, the original meaning of the thread is lost. (see the Admin board). A stich in time saves nine. or whatever.
-ll
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2006, at 10:46:29
In reply to Re: fitting the box with help, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2006, at 1:38:33
> > give them a CHANCE to adapt THEMSELVES into the box.Perhaps with the help of other babblers.
> > Part of the reason babblers hesitate to help other babblers is cuz they afraid they'll somehow say something wrong and get blocked for their efforts.
>
> First, what specifically could other Babblers do to help them adapt?**Yeah, what Li said!
And sometimes you can help by just walking away, just tell them you need to chill out a bit and WALK AWAY. And hopefully others will too.
And I guess thast where b-mail could be useful cuz you could b-mail others and suggest they walk way too.
>
> You're right, there isn't incentive for them to try to help if they're just going to get blocked themselves. So those trying to help might need help, too?**see above...
But I don't think we need to sort ourselves into gangs.
We all need help Bob. Even you.And just so you don't get sidetracked I still feel VERY strongly that BLOCKS SHOULD BE CAPPED.
I dunno how to get that into your stubborn head.
Thanks,
Muffled
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 8, 2006, at 10:55:51
In reply to Re: fitting the box with help » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on December 8, 2006, at 10:46:29
Dr. Bob,
I FEEL VERY STRONGLY THAT THERE SHOULD BE A CAP ON MAXIMUM BLOCK LENGTHS.
Posted by zazenduckie on December 8, 2006, at 11:38:41
In reply to well folks, posted by alexandra_k on June 3, 2006, at 22:36:48
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 8, 2006, at 11:45:06
In reply to Re: fitting the box with help, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 8, 2006, at 10:55:51
oops, I meant a cap other than 52 weeks.
sorry. my caps lock was on.
((((capslock))))
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2006, at 12:25:21
In reply to Re: fitting the box with help » LlurpsieBlossom, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 8, 2006, at 11:45:06
LOL!!! let er rip Lurpy!!!!!
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 9, 2006, at 0:44:32
In reply to Re: fitting the box with help » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on December 8, 2006, at 10:46:29
> If another babbler is talking about a topic that is starting to drift off towards uncivil-land, another babbler might do several things
>
> 1) try to distract the to-be-blocked babbler by switching topics
> 2) try to explain a different point of view to the to-be-blocked babbler (civilly)
> 3) try to support the to-be-blocked babbler and figure out why they are angry/lashing out. Perhaps it's because they need attention and support, and once they can get that attention and support, they will not feel like lashing out.
> 4) try to help the to-be-blocked babbler understand that they are in danger of getting blocked.
>
> 5) exchange babblemails with the purposes (1-4) above.
>
> -ll> And sometimes you can help by just walking away, just tell them you need to chill out a bit and WALK AWAY. And hopefully others will too.
> And I guess thast where b-mail could be useful cuz you could b-mail others and suggest they walk way too.Those are great suggestions, thanks!
Also, an idea that came up before was having a mandatory "civility buddy":
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20051205/msgs/596986.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20051205/msgs/597469.htmlwhich we could discuss more there...
> And just so you don't get sidetracked I still feel VERY strongly that BLOCKS SHOULD BE CAPPED.
> I dunno how to get that into your stubborn head.
>
> MuffledTo get it into my stubborn head, convince me that it wouldn't be more disruptive if people were uncivil more often?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 9, 2006, at 1:52:43
In reply to Lou's request to DR. Hsiung-, posted by Lou Pilder on December 8, 2006, at 11:30:45
> My system would give each poster a rating number
> This rating number of each poster will be tracked by appointed rating keepersThat's an interesting idea. But what if it weren't just appointed individuals? Sellers are rated on eBay as an incentive for them to be good citizens...
Bob
Posted by verne on December 9, 2006, at 10:05:54
In reply to Re: give each poster a rating, posted by Dr. Bob on December 9, 2006, at 1:51:37
Some sites like amazon or epinions.com allow consumers or buyers to rate each others posts or product reviews.
Of course, only some people are motivated to take the time and rate a post so it's hardly foolproof. I suppose ballot-box stuffing and campaigning for or against certain popular individuals would follow. Some people love to take surveys and rate things while others avoid that sort of thing. The results would be questionable.
In the end it may turn into a popularity contest. Tribes would choose up sides and alliances form. Perhaps two warring camps would dominate Babble Island.
Most participants (including those who just read and don't post) will visit the island, take what they need, perhaps help others occasionally, and leave the rest. Only the very motivated would get involved in a ratings war or power struggle
The adventurous visitor might discover a third camp on the island for those who don't fit into any other camp. We, at this camp, like to look at the hidden undercurrents and read the text between the lines. If you listen carefully on a clear night, you might even hear us singing the "Ballad of Larry Hoover".
verne
Posted by ClearSkies on December 11, 2006, at 0:58:15
In reply to Re: give each poster a rating, posted by verne on December 9, 2006, at 10:05:54
> The adventurous visitor might discover a third camp on the island for those who don't fit into any other camp. We, at this camp, like to look at the hidden undercurrents and read the text between the lines. If you listen carefully on a clear night, you might even hear us singing the "Ballad of Larry Hoover".
>
> verneThere is no reason why this camp can't put down its stakes right now. You don't require permission from anyone here, no fee or license required. Reservations are limitless.
CS
Posted by verne on December 13, 2006, at 21:18:05
In reply to Re: give each poster a rating » verne, posted by ClearSkies on December 11, 2006, at 0:58:15
I feel like I'm in the Seti Project. Now and then, I drop LH's name just to "ping" the net for a response.
Hope he's doing well. I completely understand and support life beyond Babble. I wouldn't want to drag anyone back who's achieved escape velocity and broke free from Babble's strong pull.
I wish you well, LH.
verne
Posted by zazenduckie on January 13, 2007, at 15:01:36
In reply to Escape Velocity, posted by verne on December 13, 2006, at 21:18:05
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