![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 70. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Estella on September 4, 2006, at 1:48:01
Are you Bob?
I know you have been away and all.
But is it simply that you have been away, or is it that you are starting to try and extract yourself?(I know you say it not to think of it as an extraction but thinking of tooth removal as 'tooth removal' rather than 'extraction' doesn't change what it is in fact so...)
Are you?
You used to post more.
You used to post about what you were reading and stuff.You don't really do that anymore.
:-(
Are you sick of Babbling with us?
(I've appreciated your not blocking as much don't get me wrong)
But...
Are you sick of Babbling with us?
:-(
Posted by Estella on September 4, 2006, at 1:50:24
In reply to Extraction, posted by Estella on September 4, 2006, at 1:48:01
Is it cause it takes too much time?
:-(
You could let the deputies do the blocking stuff.
Then you wouldn't have to spend so much time doing that.And if they are doing the blocking stuff you would have more time to talk to us :-)
:-(
I'm in a bad mood today
:-(
:-(
:-(
:-(
:-(
:-(
:-(
sorry
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2006, at 10:11:51
In reply to Re: Extraction, posted by Estella on September 4, 2006, at 1:50:24
Speaking as this deputy, I'm not all too fond of doing the blocking stuff.
That's not what I became a deputy for.
Posted by Jost on September 4, 2006, at 10:59:37
In reply to Re: Extraction » Estella, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2006, at 10:11:51
What would it mean if Bob "extracted" himself?
It's interesting. He's never been here that much while I've been here, so I don't have anything to compare.
Did the sense of his presence make Pbabble more meaningful? I sometimes feel the absence of any, for want of a better work, leadership. It seems as though you kind of want to set up people who fill some role of being wise, experienced, knowing how to handle this or that.
Jost
Posted by gardenergirl on September 4, 2006, at 14:55:54
In reply to Re: Extraction, posted by Jost on September 4, 2006, at 10:59:37
Or perhaps take for granted that someone will pick up the slack? That's how it feels to me. And I do think that happens to a signficant extent. But I don't think it feels as secure as when the expected leader is around.
And the sense of it being taken for granted versus being asked to take on more...I hate that.
gg
Posted by Alexus on September 4, 2006, at 19:19:23
In reply to Re: Extraction » Estella, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2006, at 10:11:51
> Speaking as this deputy, I'm not all too fond of doing the blocking stuff.
> That's not what I became a deputy for.What did you think being a deputy was going to be about?
Posted by Alexus on September 4, 2006, at 19:20:24
In reply to Re: Extraction » Jost, posted by gardenergirl on September 4, 2006, at 14:55:54
> And the sense of it being taken for granted versus being asked to take on more...I hate that.What did you think being a deputy was going to be about? Its volountary remember you don't have to do anything at all.
Posted by Alexus on September 4, 2006, at 19:22:09
In reply to Re: Extraction, posted by Jost on September 4, 2006, at 10:59:37
> What would it mean if Bob "extracted" himself?
:-(
> It's interesting. He's never been here that much while I've been here, so I don't have anything to compare.Archives
> It seems as though you kind of want to set up people who fill some role of being wise, experienced, knowing how to handle this or that.Want him to come back and babble more.
Not come back and block more :-(
Posted by Alexus on September 4, 2006, at 20:36:49
In reply to Re: Extraction, posted by Jost on September 4, 2006, at 10:59:37
> Did the sense of his presence make Pbabble more meaningful?Yeah. It did somehow. I know it isn't supposed to be about him at all... But it did somehow, yeah.
> I sometimes feel the absence of any, for want of a better work, leadership. It seems as though you kind of want to set up people who fill some role of being wise, experienced, knowing how to handle this or that.
I'm not sure that it is about leadership...
I have a lot of faith in Dinah when it comes to blockings and stuff. A lot of faith in all the deputies, actually. And in the posters too. Posters can be pretty good at handling situations sometimes too.It is just... Bob. I wouldn't care if he never blocked anyone ever again. I just wish he would be on the boards a bit more. But... I don't know. Doesn't matter.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 4, 2006, at 23:58:35
In reply to Re: Extraction » gardenergirl, posted by Alexus on September 4, 2006, at 19:20:24
>
> > And the sense of it being taken for granted versus being asked to take on more...I hate that.
>
> What did you think being a deputy was going to be about? Its volountary remember you don't have to do anything at all.Is it upsetting or in some other way a bother to you to read how deputies feel and are responding to the evolving deputy roles? Or about changes we were not asked to make but rather have found ourselves dealing with without adequate tools and support to feel competent?
I don't understand your reply.
gg
Posted by Alexus on September 5, 2006, at 5:57:57
In reply to Re: Extraction » Alexus, posted by gardenergirl on September 4, 2006, at 23:58:35
Sorry...
I guess I don't see how the deputies roles are changing. Deputies do what... Deputies have always done. I don't see how their role has changed at all.If is about your expressing your feelings on Bob's reduced imput then I understand.
I just don't see how that changes your role at all.
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2006, at 9:10:05
In reply to Re: Extraction » gardenergirl, posted by Alexus on September 5, 2006, at 5:57:57
I had thought the difference had been obvious. Estella commented on it in the final paragraph of this post.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060826/msgs/682891.html
I *really* don't want to get into a discussion about this. I don't want to argue about how I perceive the deputy role from changing from the days when there was an escalation requirement for deputy involvement and the role was clearly limited and there was never any talk about consulting deputies.
Surely you can see that the deputies could feel a bit alienated from babblers, and vice versa, by some of the changes? Wasn't there even a hint of that in Estella's last paragraph?
I must say that if I were a nondeputy poster and saw continued references to discussing things with deputies, it would be hard for me to see deputies as primarily posters just like me. I would feel a bit like there was an inner circle. Not quite an oligarchy perhaps. But something.
And perhaps you could pretend to be a poster who's volunteered to be a deputy and see how the references might make you feel a bit uncomfortable. A bit apart. More than a bit embarassed if you're like me, as you might have seen when I tried to get Bob to bring a discussion back to Admin in a thread you might remember with zazenduck. A bit unable to fully participate on Babble as a poster, and a bit like you were expected to be like Bob.
It's true that things deputies posted as posters have always been brought up by those who are responding to us as deputies. My dogs have been included from the beginning, in ways that frankly shock me. It's always been true that I've felt there should be an extra warning box pop up before the submit button for deputies post, warning them not to make their vulnerabilities known. It's true that there are things I just don't post here, that I could post if I weren't a deputy.
But in the past, Dr. Bob has always recognized that we are first and foremost posters. The recent discussion I had with him about civility to deputies and what could be said to deputies would never have happened, because Dr. Bob used to recognize that we weren't him, and that we were posters first and foremost. True, he came to see that, but there was a time I wouldn't have had to remind him.
And yes, of course there's the issue about how often Dr. Bob is gone, and how often we're called upon to deputize. Along with the issue that as new posters come, they don't realize the history of the deputy role and see us as "moderators" rather than deputies, a distinctly different role. Or at least it once was, and I hope (although not terribly robustly in terms of hope) continues to be.
As you can see, I'm a bit emotional about the topic. And I hope you can respect my feelings and perceptions on it even if you disagree with the specifics.
And perhaps you could be sympathetic to gg's point if you remember that Dr. Bob is, in practice, about as communicative with his deputies as he is with anyone else.
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2006, at 9:12:59
In reply to Re: Extraction » Alexus, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2006, at 9:10:05
Ugh. I shouldn't have posted that. I feel like I've made myself vulnerable.
:(
Posted by Alexus on September 5, 2006, at 10:04:44
In reply to Re: Extraction » Alexus, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2006, at 9:10:05
ah.
i'm glad you did post it because now i understand. i see. yeah.
sorry gg.
Posted by Alexus on September 5, 2006, at 10:46:01
In reply to Re: Extraction » Alexus, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2006, at 9:10:05
> I don't want to argue...
okay. i don't want to argue either :-(
thank you for a wonderful talk in chat
(((((((((dinah))))))))))
and
(((((((((bobby))))))))))
thank you guys so much.> I must say that if I were a nondeputy poster and saw continued references to discussing things with deputies, it would be hard for me to see deputies as primarily posters just like me. I would feel a bit like there was an inner circle.
yeah. i've felt like that a little. like bob cares more about what deputies have to say. he probably thinks... that he does. 'cause they have earned the privaledge or something. but then i realised that it seems to be fairly much lip service. after his saying 'i've discussed it with the deputies and no', (and i get a couple emails where they seem to think yes) 'i've discussed it with the deputies and no', (and i'm still wondering whether the majority of deputies are agreeing with bob or not), then 'i've discussed it with the deputies and yes' (and i'm wondering whether he 'discussed' it or whether he 'informed' them of his decision and whether that happened before or after he posted 'yes' to the boards).
> ...I tried to get Bob to bring a discussion back to Admin in a thread you might remember with zazenduck.
yeah i remember that. i admired you for doing that. i understand your stance on small boards a bit better now. been reading the archives too...
> It's true that things deputies posted as posters have always been brought up by those who are responding to us as deputies.
yeah. but then that can happen to others too. but i understand it happens to deputies more.
bob doesn't babble. he posts as a moderator. i agree that he is asking one hell of a lot for deputies who babble to post a little / a lot more as moderators. i mean... if it were possible for them to do that you would think it would be possible for him to babble...
> ...as new posters come, they don't realize the history of the deputy role and see us as "moderators" rather than deputies, a distinctly different role.
sometimes i think it is a verbal distinction. i remember calling you a moderator once even though i knew what your role was and i knew it was different from bob's i still thought that was the appropriate name. but yeah, i hear what you are saying. like when auntiemel removed that post to jyl and dr bob restored it. the deputy / moderator distinction...
> And perhaps you could be sympathetic to gg's point if you remember that Dr. Bob is, in practice, about as communicative with his deputies as he is with anyone else.
i'm sure.
i think... there must be a middle way.
between the boards having more autonomy without bob having to withdraw.
but i guess...
it is possible that the motivation for the former is mostly about their being motivation for the latter.
Posted by Jost on September 5, 2006, at 11:24:29
In reply to Re: Extraction » Alexus, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2006, at 9:10:05
Hi, Dinah.
I think it was really great that you posted that.
I'm relatively new here, but not so new as not to have experience-based ideas about what deputies "are," which I didn't during our last discussion.
(I didn't realize there were deputies for a long time, which you, as a deputy, might not know--and it took a while to know who the deputies were, and then to observe what role they had, etc.)
I see Bob as an authority figure, although an absent one-- one whom I don't have much connection to, really. Although once or twice, I felt strongly that someone needed to address a situation, and no one did-- I otherwise haven't counted him as a presence here.
I think of you (Dinah), gg, and Auntie Mel as the ones with the right to step in-- although as a group you've been somewhat distant.. Your presence, to me, is somewhat attenuated, both as deputies and posters.
I personally would like the presence of all three of you -- and be happy if you were more involved-- But, as posters, you have no obliation to be self-revealing, or responsive. And as deputies, you know what your responsibilities are, so I've respected your decisions to intervene or not. Some situations have been difficult, and I've entirely understood your not taking more active roles.
At those moment, I have thought it unfortunate that Bob wasn't in residence, but vacations and busy practices being what they are--- I've been grateful that he has the site, even if it's an untended garden.
Possible Alexus hasn't imagined why someone would volunteer to be a deputy, or what it feels like to be one. It's easy not to think about it, if you're upset about specific things that have been done-- which is often a personal point of view-- entirely understandable-- but which can focus one's vision.
If I volunteered (and I hasten to assure all that that is in the subjunctive mood, just to clarify)-- but I know that if I did, it wouldn't be to block people or to have "power"-- or to be an "insider"-- it would be because I wanted to contribute something to this place. It might be that some admin matter had disturbed me-- but I can't imagine anyone here volunteering out of a delight in blocking others.
I have to leave, so I might say more later.
Alexus, would you think about what it would be like if you were a deputy? I'd be interested in how that would feel to you-- why you might do it, what feelings it would evoke, or how it would change your sense of yourself here, if it would.
(I'm not saying it would-- I'm asking myself the same questions, and of course it's different for different people- but it's a question.)
Jost
Posted by Alexus on September 5, 2006, at 11:40:09
In reply to Re: Extraction, posted by Jost on September 5, 2006, at 11:24:29
Anyone can feel free to post to people saying that you are concerned that the situation is escalating or whatever.
Only deputies can block.
And sometimes there is a call for that. Sometimes people literally ask to be blocked (and go off in order to be blocked). Blocking them does seem to prevent incivilities on the boards.
Only deputies can remove posts.
And sometimes there is a call for that. Sometimes people post grossly offensive posts which are removed. Only if they are *grossly* offensive. But that does happen. The sooner they are removed the less fuss they cause.
Only deputies can redirect threads.
And sometimes there is a call for that. Or the boards get untidy.
I didn't mean to imply that someone would want to be a deputy because of any *pleasure* they would get from blocking. I think of it (at times) as a necessary evil. Somebody has got to do it (at times). The more people on board with that the sooner it gets done. That is important when people are getting upset and more and more and more people are getting dragged into it.
I do have sympathy for the position of the deputies. I just didn't understand what gg was getting at. But I think I get it now.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 5, 2006, at 12:09:52
In reply to Re: Extraction » Jost, posted by Alexus on September 5, 2006, at 11:40:09
Thanks Alexus, for working to understand what I was saying and Dinah for speaking up, too.
My concerns do relate, in part, to Dr. Bob's absences. Deputies do not have to ever act if the do not wish to. They can always defer to Dr. Bob. But if he's not around, then what happens? It's not like I think things would degenerate into mass chaos and rampant incivility. But don't folks already expect that if Dr. Bob is not around, that the deputies will be more available? Maybe that's my own expectation. Heck, I don't know.
And as there are currently only three deputies, if one or more of us were unable to participate for any reason for a length of time, what would happen then? Would Dr. Bob find time to be around more again? Would the remaining deputy feel a pull to do even more, even if it's not how they want to balance posting as a Babbler and as a deputy? Would anyone else bravely step up and unofficially try to keep order?
I suppose I shouldn't really worry about that. But there have been times that I wanted to take a break. (Frankly, I probably should so I can finish that D-monster.) I just know that if I did, though, it would create more of a burden for Dinah. And I don't want to do that.
I also would not be comfortable watching things that need addressing just sit there until Dr. Bob has a chance to deal with them. I'm already not comfortable with that, as a number of things have been missed or too much time has passed to deal effectively with them.
I realize that my concerns about this come from my own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. And regardless of how I feel or what I do, the board will go on. Still, if I were indifferent, none of this would matter to me. But I'm not indifferent. Sometimes caring sucks.
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2006, at 14:16:08
In reply to Re: Extraction, posted by Jost on September 5, 2006, at 11:24:29
> I think of you (Dinah), gg, and Auntie Mel as the ones with the right to step in-- although as a group you've been somewhat distant.. Your presence, to me, is somewhat attenuated, both as deputies and posters.
Boy, that must be recent. I thought I had a reputation as a Very Prolific Poster. Ubiquitous even.
Posted by zazenducky on September 5, 2006, at 16:21:05
In reply to Extraction, posted by Estella on September 4, 2006, at 1:48:01
bob are you going to write another essay to follow up your best of 2 worlds? because now there is a merging of the 2 (administrative and support) isn't there? do you notice any difference?
Posted by llrrrpp on September 7, 2006, at 14:51:26
In reply to the end of the two worlds bob????, posted by zazenducky on September 5, 2006, at 16:21:05
I feel kind of sorry for the deputies (recently), personally.
It's an awful lot to expect from people who originally came to this site for support.
And while Dr. Bob takes off from this site, it doesn't seem to reduce from its quality. Eventually, however, even millstones wear down from grinding too much corn.
I miss Dr. Bob. I've told him so, and he said he misses Babblers too. Life goes on etc etc. BUT what are the implications for psycho-babble if something malicious should happen and only a few deputies are supposed to take care of the whole shebang? What happens to a deputy when deputizing endangers their mental health and they need support?
I've been engaged in pbabble since April. Dr. Bob was on a lot around the time of the APA conference, but particularly in August, there has been somewhat little presence.
In my mind, the deputies take over this leadership vacuum. Dinah and gg and AMel take on a new status that is inversely proportional to Dr. Bob's input.
I guess I just wished it were easier, and that the owner would stop in a say "hi" every once in a while. "how's your food tonight? Is everything okay? Would you mind picking up your social drinking from my Faith Board? thanks... etc.
-ll
and I know Bob's around. he's just too busy. What's up?
Posted by Alexus on September 7, 2006, at 20:24:51
In reply to Re: the end of the two worlds bob????, posted by llrrrpp on September 7, 2006, at 14:51:26
> BUT what are the implications for psycho-babble if something malicious should happen and only a few deputies are supposed to take care of the whole shebang? What happens to a deputy when deputizing endangers their mental health and they need support?
Deputies never have to interveane. But I understand that it must be hard for them not to. Bob has said... That he won't be around forever. That seems right enough. Nobody lives forever etc. I guess he would like it if Babble could continue... But it might be the case that the whole thing kinda collapses / gets abandoned once he leaves.
:-(
> he's just too busy. What's up?
Maybe... His internet access is still not reliable. Or maybe... He's just too busy.
Or maybe...
He is about to come along and announce new (additional) deputies.
Etc etc.
Posted by Phillipa on September 8, 2006, at 21:02:22
In reply to Re: the end of the two worlds bob???? » llrrrpp, posted by Alexus on September 7, 2006, at 20:24:51
What ever happened to the addition of two or possibly three new Deputies? Love Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2006, at 10:44:25
In reply to Re: the end of the two worlds bob????, posted by Phillipa on September 8, 2006, at 21:02:22
> Are you sick of Babbling with us?
>
> :-(
>
> Estella> > Did the sense of his presence make Pbabble more meaningful?
>
> Yeah. It did somehow. I know it isn't supposed to be about him at all... But it did somehow, yeah.
>
> I just wish he would be on the boards a bit more. But... I don't know. Doesn't matter.
>
> Alexus> Surely you can see that the deputies could feel a bit alienated from babblers, and vice versa, by some of the changes?
>
> I must say that if I were a nondeputy poster and saw continued references to discussing things with deputies, it would be hard for me to see deputies as primarily posters just like me. I would feel a bit like there was an inner circle.
>
> And perhaps you could pretend to be a poster who's volunteered to be a deputy and see how the references might make you feel a bit uncomfortable. A bit apart. More than a bit embarassed if you're like me
>
> It's true that things deputies posted as posters have always been brought up by those who are responding to us as deputies. My dogs have been included from the beginning, in ways that frankly shock me. ... It's true that there are things I just don't post here, that I could post if I weren't a deputy.
>
> Dinah> i think... there must be a middle way.
> between the boards having more autonomy without bob having to withdraw.
>
> Alexus> bob are you going to write another essay to follow up your best of 2 worlds? because now there is a merging of the 2 (administrative and support) isn't there? do you notice any difference?
>
> zazenducky> What ever happened to the addition of two or possibly three new Deputies?
>
> PhillipaI'm not sick of anyone. But I know my presence, or absence, can affect how this community functions and have an emotional impact on people here. There are real issues that need to be addressed, but at the same time, I'd also like to encourage reflection on what else might contribute to that emotional impact.
That's an interesting idea, a follow-up article. I do think my thinking about "the best of both worlds" is evolving:
One issue is the sustainability, or advisability, of having one administrator. More heads are better than one, and if other administrators weren't posters, either volunteers would need to be recruited from elsewhere or employees would need to be hired. And those are valid alternatives. I'm not inclined in that direction, but if this doesn't work, I may need to reconsider.
Regarding the role of the deputies in the community, one issue is whether they can be impartial administrators, and I think our current deputies have been. Partly it's selection, and staying mindful of potential conflicts of interest, but they also work well together, so it's sometimes possible for them not to intervene if they're involved in situations themselves. Another issue is whether they can be impartial posters. I'm not saying they're not, but that's less of an issue because other posters can provide support.
Regarding the deputies themselves, I think it's inevitable that they won't always be seen, or themselves feel, like regular posters. They're in a different position, with its own pros and cons, and the potential cons include receiving less support and even being attacked. Others may only become clear as we give this more time. It's not easy. But it's also an opportunity to contribute to the site in an important way and may lead to learning and growth.
Regarding the community as a whole, if there's more sharing of power, there may be less splitting (seeing administrators as bad and posters as good) and more of a feeling of shared ownership and that we're all in this together. But power and authority will be issues no matter who has them.
Regarding me, I benefit from and greatly appreciate the input and assistance of the deputies. I also have to manage them, and that may not be my strong suit, but maybe this will be a learning and growth experience for me, too.
Also, things change with time. Starting out is different, and poses different challenges, than keeping going. But change is hard, too, so that's an added stress.
If anyone has any suggestions regarding a middle way, or another different way, I'm open to suggestions. Or at least try to be. :-)
New deputies are a key ingredient, so I definitely want to get back to them. I'm really sorry that's been stalled, and grateful for their patience.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on September 13, 2006, at 11:05:04
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2006, at 10:44:25
:(
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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