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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 13:54:40
In reply to I'll never forget the goo people ;^) (nm) » NikkiT2, posted by gardenergirl on May 12, 2006, at 5:13:51
*pmp*
I missed this earlier somehow!!
Goo is important in life. Goo people are like molten jelly babies *L*
N x
Posted by gardenergirl on May 12, 2006, at 14:00:34
In reply to Re: I'll never forget the goo people ;^) » gardenergirl, posted by NikkiT2 on May 12, 2006, at 13:54:40
Posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 16:58:21
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 11:32:20
> Sometimes, I guess, people need to take responsibility for their own actions..
****yeah. whatever that means... sometimes people don't understand the difference... don't understand that their interpretation may not reflect reality... so you think they should be blocked and that is just too bad????*****
Blocks do not happen out of the blue. There are several warnings leading up to the block. I think the system was designed that way to give people a chance to reflect on the way their posts are being interpreted by others.
If after the warnings, the poster still can't see that their posts aren't being interpreted the way they see them, then a block might be in order to help the person reflect on how they express themselves and that it may be hurting others.
We can nitpick all day, but Dr. Bob's interpretations and the deputy's interpretations are just as valid as anyone and after warnings the responsibility rests with the poster to see that.
Posted by Declan on May 12, 2006, at 18:40:45
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility, posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 16:58:21
But he wanted to get blocked, and eventually he managed it. I hope he got some pleasure out of being here; he gave me a lot of fun.
Declan
Posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 19:48:13
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 11:50:50
> Do you think I took Verne's post personally and lashed out?no.
i just meant that bob seems to be more focused on blocking / punishing people...
and so i figure he trains deputies to do the same...
when there are other ways to handle things.
i'm sorry.
i think i put my foot in it again :-(
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 21:15:42
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 12, 2006, at 19:48:13
I think I try to handle things other ways as often as possible. I don't think I'd ever be known as "quick draw Dinah".
And Dr. Bob doesn't give us any particular training in punishing people. :) Although that does paint an amusing picture. I can just see the blackboard illustrations. (I hope you see the humor in it too. If not, excuse me.)
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:55:51
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2006, at 21:15:42
> I think I try to handle things other ways as often as possible. I don't think I'd ever be known as "quick draw Dinah".
no... but then how about 'quick draw bob'
?
sometimes...
it is relative...
> And Dr. Bob doesn't give us any particular training in punishing people.oh. i thought there were guidelines on when it was okay to interveane (with warnings / blockings) and when it was not okay to interveane. i thought there were rules on block length (though that might be changing...) etc etc.
so... doesn't that mean he does give you training in punishing people?
er... does he give you training in deescalating the situation?
in other ways of calming things down?or... just a system of punishment?
this isn't about you. you do what is in your job description.
i'm just wondering about the job description is all...
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:04
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility, posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 16:58:21
> Blocks do not happen out of the blue.depends on what you mean by 'out of the blue'.
i thought i've seen some come fairly much 'out of the blue'.
> If after the warnings, the poster still can't see that their posts aren't being interpreted the way they see them, then a block might be in order to help the person reflect on how they express themselves and that it may be hurting others.ah. so they come into line or they get exiled...
how about their hurts???> We can nitpick all day, but Dr. Bob's interpretations and the deputy's interpretations are just as valid as anyone.
right. but bob's interpretations...
are the ones that really matter.with respect to being exiled etc etc.
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:36
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Declan on May 12, 2006, at 18:40:45
> But he wanted to get blocked, and eventually he managed it.
i wonder why?
resigning himself to his likely fate?????
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 4:00:53
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:36
aka...
did the blocking system...
escalate the situation...
actually resulting in incivility.bob has wondered how much his presence might provoke incivility...
i wonder whether bob has wondered how much his blocking system might provoke incivility.
and i wonder whether bob has wondered whether the former might happen (if it does...) in virtue of the latter.
perhaps...
Posted by gardenergirl on May 13, 2006, at 9:27:49
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 4:00:53
Even if civility is "incited", it's still up to us as posters to manage our reactions and to frame our posts within the civility guidelines. If that becomes harder to do because of stronger emotions, then we need to have a way to cope with that, whether that means stepping away from the computer, writing what you want to say and sending it to a friend or deleting it, using a civility buddy, talking it over with someone, etc.
Even when we're hurt, it's up to us to remain civil. It's a behavior choice. Some may be more skilled in this behavior than others, that's true. But there are compensatory and adaptive behavior choices available.
Managing our own behavior is within our locus of control. Getting the rules changed here is not. If you look at what's effective in achieving a desired result, I think paying attention to what is within us to change versus what we don't have control over might be more effective. Assuming the goal is reducing blocks.
This doesn't mean we can't try to influence what is not within our control. But all we can do is try to influence. We have no control over external outcomes.
So, assuming a goal is to see fewer blocks here, which way seems more effective? Of course, I'm assuming the goal, and of course I could be mistaken.
gg
Posted by madeline on May 13, 2006, at 9:55:11
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » madeline, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:04
If after the warnings, the poster still can't <<<see that their posts aren't being interpreted the way they see them, then a block might be in order to help the person reflect on how they express themselves and that it may be hurting others.>>>>
******ah. so they come into line or they get exiled...
how about their hurts???*****YES! That is exactly it!! People learn how to express their hurts without hurting, offending or belittling others, or they are excluded from the discourse. That is exactly right!!!
It happens IRL and it SHOULD happen here as well. We can be horribly, terribly, irreparably hurt, but that never gives us the right to hurt other people.
Is it a perfect system? no. Nothing is ever perfect. Who decides what hurts others? Dr. Bob and the deputies.
The blocks and PBCs aren't designed to be punitive, but rather to help us control HOW we interact with others.
Now, I am probably one the biggest anti-authority, anti-establishment persons on the planet. People in power are to be checked and mistrusted at every turn. Abuse of power happens.
But I really don't think that is what is happening on these boards.
We have ultimate control here. WE control what we say or don't say. We control how we say it and when.
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:14:40
In reply to Responsibility and blocks, posted by gardenergirl on May 13, 2006, at 9:27:49
> Even if civility is "incited", it's still up to us as posters to manage our reactions and to frame our posts within the civility guidelines. If that becomes harder to do because of stronger emotions, then we need to have a way to cope with that, whether that means stepping away from the computer, writing what you want to say and sending it to a friend or deleting it, using a civility buddy, talking it over with someone, etc.
ok. how about the cases where people have no idea. thinking mostly about politics here...
i notice that the deputies tend to leave politics to bob.
why is that?
because over there... he is comparatively unpredictable?
no sh*t...
> So, assuming a goal is to see fewer blocks here, which way seems more effective? Of course, I'm assuming the goal, and of course I could be mistaken.yeah. there comes a point where you figure the harms (or potential harms even...) outweigh the good (or possible good even).
you have heard me talk about how much babble means to me and how much babble has helped me so i guess you have some idea of how much is at stake...
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:22:46
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » Estella, posted by madeline on May 13, 2006, at 9:55:11
> ******ah. so they come into line or they get exiled...
> how about their hurts???*****
> YES! That is exactly it!! People learn how to express their hurts without hurting, offending or belittling others, or they are excluded from the discourse. That is exactly right!!!though that isn't quite right...
it is that (to adapt what you said a bit)
'People learn how to express their hurts without the POSSIBILITY of others feeling hurt, offended, or belittled, or they are excluded...'Because people don't just get blocked when someone IS offended... People get blocked because Bob judges that people *possibly could* feel offended. Of course people *could* take offence at anything and everything. So Bob uses his judgement... Hmm. And it is that that I am questioning.
How many ACTUAL people get harmed because Bob is worried about POSSIBLE people (who might not even exist). He rates them highly (probably because they justify his decision). But how about the harm to the ACTUAL people?
> Now, I am probably one the biggest anti-authority, anti-establishment persons on the planet. People in power are to be checked and mistrusted at every turn. Abuse of power happens.> But I really don't think that is what is happening on these boards.
So you have suspended your mistrust...
Now someone said this to me back in the old days... And I was mad about it and I thought they were wrong. But someone said to me... To give it time. And I hated it at the time. But now... Well... That is what I say to you. Give it time. And you will see that good, decent, loving people who don't hurt anyone (aside from maybe being a little harsh with their opinions - but then you should hear their reasons... But good decent loving people... Are blocked. Because of some vague possibility that only Bob can comprehend. Just wait till it happens to you or someone you care about. Eventually... I anticipate a change in tune...
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:26:52
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » madeline, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:22:46
and the million dollar question is...
why won't bob take responsibility for the harms
to the community
that result from his blocking system?he can go on all he likes about how it is necessary / the best way in a VLG...
but then how come other experts disagree?
you got a single other expert who agrees with your blocking system Bob?
or are you going out on a limb?
it is indeed going out on a limb...
to disregard the harm as an 'unintended side effect'
yeah thats right you have no responsibility / obligation to us whatsoever.but then...
who wrote that down as a rule?
you and your committee?
you gonna cite yourself in court?
nice to be some...
and why should we trust you again????????????
Posted by madeline on May 13, 2006, at 14:37:30
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » madeline, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 14:22:46
****Because people don't just get blocked when someone IS offended... People get blocked because Bob judges that people *possibly could* feel offended. Of course people *could* take offence at anything and everything. So Bob uses his judgement... Hmm. And it is that that I am questioning.****
One post ago, you agreed that Dr. Bob's interpretation was just as valid as anyone else's.
****though that isn't quite right...
it is that (to adapt what you said a bit)
'People learn how to express their hurts without the POSSIBILITY of others feeling hurt, offended, or belittled, or they are excluded...'****Yes, that's right. We must express it without the possiblility of people getting hurt. That is the essence of civility.
*****But good decent loving people... Are blocked****
But they can come back. It's their choice.
Posted by Declan on May 13, 2006, at 17:30:13
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:58:36
Someone (you?) told me how to do that highlighting thing you do so you know what is being discussed, but
I've forgotten.Verne was saying for ages that he needed a life and this here wasn't right.
The other thing here is that you spend a lot of energy putting up posts and then spend more regretting your personality (speaking personally)
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 23:48:28
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility, posted by madeline on May 13, 2006, at 14:37:30
> ****Because people don't just get blocked when someone IS offended... People get blocked because Bob judges that people *possibly could* feel offended. Of course people *could* take offence at anything and everything. So Bob uses his judgement... Hmm. And it is that that I am questioning.****
> One post ago, you agreed that Dr. Bob's interpretation was just as valid as anyone else's.You said:
>> ...Dr. Bob's interpretations and the deputy's interpretations are just as valid as anyone.
I said:
>right. but bob's interpretations...
are the ones that really matter.
>with respect to being exiled etc etc.And thus whether other people have a valid point or not really doesn't matter at all. Like how Bob could see Auntiemel's and Jyl's point... But preferred his alternative point of view... And went on his merry way (as he does).
> ****though that isn't quite right...
> it is that (to adapt what you said a bit)
> 'People learn how to express their hurts without the POSSIBILITY of others feeling hurt, offended, or belittled, or they are excluded...'****
> Yes, that's right. We must express it without the possiblility of people getting hurt. That is the essence of civility.'Civility' as the term is used by Bob...
Or 'Civility' as the term is used in the dictionary?
There are things that are okay on the boards that aren't really civil in the latter sense.
There are things that are not okay on the boards that are civil in the latter sense.You can't rule out the *possibility* of people being hurt. People can (as a matter of fact) feel hurt in response to fairly much anything.
It is surely possible that my post brings up stuff for someone...
And that they feel hurt in response to that...
Does that mean I am at fault and I need to change my behaviour to come into line?
Have I done anything wrong?
> *****But good decent loving people... Are blocked****
> But they can come back. It's their choice.Right.
But why would you?
Come back to be at the whim of Dr Bob's mood (or something). To never know when the next exile is coming from...
Blocks can hurt so much that that hurt can counterbalance the good...
So when you weigh whehter you are better off posting or leaving...
It can be a hard decision.
I love this place.
But I don't want to live in terror.
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 23:50:43
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by Declan on May 13, 2006, at 17:30:13
> Someone (you?) told me how to do that highlighting thing you do so you know what is being discussed, but
> I've forgotten.when you go to post a reply there are two little buttons 'post a reply' and something else... the one on the right will put the text of the post you are replying to in the txt box for you.
> Verne was saying for ages that he needed a life and this here wasn't right.yeah.
i wonder why....
> The other thing here is that you spend a lot of energy putting up posts and then spend more regretting your personality (speaking personally)yeah.
probly time to move along...
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 23:51:57
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 23:50:43
Post a new follow-up
Your message only
Include above postthen the button to do that.
check to 'include above post'
Posted by Declan on May 14, 2006, at 0:38:28
In reply to Re: verne's block, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 23:51:57
> Post a new follow-up
>>> (like this?....is this meaningful?) Your message only
> Include above post
>
> < (not this way either?)then the button to do that.
>
> check to 'include above post'
>
>
>
slow learner and general smart *rse
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 1:43:50
In reply to Re: verne's block » Estella, posted by Declan on May 14, 2006, at 0:38:28
?
sorry...
sometimes it can be hard to tell how detailed one should be
sorry...
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 14, 2006, at 4:01:55
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility, posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 23:48:28
>Blocks can hurt so much that that hurt can counterbalance the good...
So its only the feelings of the blockee that n eed be taken into account yeah? Not the feelings of those hurt / offended by what the blocke dperson said?
Please, I am so lost here.. can you just do a list of WHAT you are arguing? A stop to all blocks? A stop to blocks you don't agree with? Keep blocks but keep them shorter?
Please, explain.
Nikki
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 7:37:57
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » Estella, posted by NikkiT2 on May 14, 2006, at 4:01:55
> So its only the feelings of the blockee that n eed be taken into account yeah?
That isn't what I said...
> Not the feelings of those hurt / offended by what the blocke dperson said?
Of course those should be taken into account.
But Bob seems to put higher priority on the 'possible people' (ie even when nobody is actually offended... People still get blocked because people 'possibly could' be offended).
> can you just do a list of WHAT you are arguing?Maybe I'm not arguing...
So much as I'm thinking about things...
About the way things are at present...
About the considerations that the current system works on...
About the rationalisation for the current system...And I'm wondering / worrying about that.
> A stop to all blocks? A stop to blocks you don't agree with? Keep blocks but keep them shorter?
I think sometimes people are blocked when they would be better off being asked to rephrase.
I think sometimes / most times people are blocked for too long.
Posted by Declan on May 14, 2006, at 15:25:44
In reply to Re: verne's block - taking responsibility » NikkiT2, posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 7:37:57
Do you think that people ever get blocked for their attitude? If not why not, etc etc.
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