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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by zazenduck on May 7, 2006, at 12:30:31
In reply to Re: As they say in AA » AuntieMel, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 22:58:45
it's an unending cycle of suffering ......
it's sad
what do you really want?
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 15:14:02
In reply to Undying Love » Dinah, posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 9:28:58
> I just don't value cyberhugs and expressions of concern, care, or, even love, when, as soon as one side experiences some rough weather, they quickly drift apart. I've seen, "I love you so much" turn into complete indifference overnight. If the same people leave Babble for good, they are quickly forgotten.
Self preservation, Verne. At first every person who moved on from Babble left a giant hole in my heart. There are so many I cared about who left one way or another. If I didn't guard that heart, there'd be nothing left of it. Because most people come and go at Babble. But do I miss Ted and Dreamer and Noa and Trouble and any number of other posters who post no more (at least not that I know of)? Of course. The people they knew might move on as well, but those who knew and care about them will always remember.
>
> There are so many back channels here at Babble. So much between and behind the lines. People form alliances and defend each other from others but never really develop true friendships. Loyalties change, new alliances form - kinda like the reality show "Survivor". The goal becomes winning at Babble. This is a game about POWER and WINNING not support.I don't see it that way. I know a lot of people have a lot of off board contact. I have very little, actually. I sort of am a bit envious sometimes. But I also recognize that I'm a lousy correspondent.
>
> There are many ways to WIN.
>
> Zeugma talked about damning with "faint praise". The fist hidden beneath the velvet glove may be employed in many ways. Sometimes attacks aren't that obvious.
>
> For example, if an outsider is found to be threatening to a group, others will lavish so much praise on each other, the "intruder" is silenced, her posts drowned out. I mean, the gang will turn the thread into a mutual lovefest to exclude, isolate, and quietly, but civily, destroy the unwelcome interloper. And later when the other is blocked or leaves in frustration, they remain blameless - "What did we do?"I'm not saying this doesn't happen. I think it's human nature to be protective of people we know. But as you've probably seen, it often just takes a bit of getting to know the other person and it evens out. I could give you several examples, but I've found that that's not usually very helpful, as in fact what I'm writing right now is rarely helpful. One of my personal Babble goals is to learn to accept that I can't always or even often be helpful. And that my most earnest attempts not infrequently leave things worse rather than better.
> I'm sure you've noticed how many civil posts are carefully crafted, within the civility guidelines, to provoke a fight with someone - to tork them off. How is this possible in the context of support and civility? Being smooth with the rules is rewarded, awkward support isn't.
I don't really see that all that often. Certainly I see it sometimes. I think I've seen everything sometimes. But I also know that I've been accused of it when I wasn't trying to express my uncivil feelings civilly at all. I tend to (at least in this stage of my Babble life) walk away. So I tend to, whenever at all possible, to interpret other people's posts with that in mind. That sometimes a banana is just a banana.
Posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 16:50:14
In reply to Re: Undying Love, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 15:14:02
Dinah,
I just wanted to make sure you knew that I'm questioning the greater mechanics or *cosmology* of Babble and not you in particular.
You've never been anything but a class act in my book. Me, on the other hand - sometimes, I think I just like to butt heads. For all my talk against arguing of any kind, I think *I'm* the one loaded for bear, spoiling for trouble.
I've accused others of playing "king of the hill" yet in the end, perhaps, I'm the only one on the hill, which isn't really a hill afterall, more a slight mound or hole really. I'm just a lone and lonely goat up to my neck in my *hill*.
Verne
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 16:54:23
In reply to Re: Undying Love » Dinah, posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 16:50:14
You've never been anything but kind to me. I didn't think you were talking about me. But my viewpoint is necessarily colored by my experiences, so I answered in first person.
I don't think you're alone. I think how people view Babble, Babblers, and Bob differ very widely. I wish I understood enough to know why that may be so. :)
Posted by AuntieMel on May 8, 2006, at 11:06:54
In reply to Re: As they say in AA » AuntieMel, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 22:58:45
If I did something to hurt you, I am really, really sorry.
I sometimes disagree, and I enjoyed the sparring that we used to do. If I went too far with any of it, well I know it doesn't help much, but I really didn't mean to.
Posted by greywolf on May 8, 2006, at 14:37:57
In reply to Re: As they say in AA, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:06:15
While I understand the occasional frustration with ticky-tack interpretations of the civility rules, it seems to me in the overall scheme of things that the rules are a really minor aspect of this site.
Seriously, take the hundreds of threads and thousands of posts that provide information, support, and entertainment to babblers, and weigh them against the handful of controversies created by purported breaches of the civility rules. What wins out for you? I know where the scale tips for me.
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 18:43:09
In reply to Civility Rules Seem Such A Small Matter, posted by greywolf on May 8, 2006, at 14:37:57
> While I understand the occasional frustration with ticky-tack interpretations of the civility rules, it seems to me in the overall scheme of things that the rules are a really minor aspect of this site.
it isn't about the rules so much as it is about the blocks.
the blocks aren't a 'really minor aspect of this site' because people are getting blocked all the time...
> Seriously, take the hundreds of threads and thousands of posts that provide information, support, and entertainment to babblers, and weigh them against the handful of controversies created by purported breaches of the civility rules. What wins out for you? I know where the scale tips for me.right. then take the 'hundreds of threads and thousands of posts that provide information, support, and entertainment to babblers, and weigh them'...
against the harm done by being blocked.
against the harm done by uncharitable interpretations of peoples posts.
by exiling them from the community.then add in a few other things like past traumas.
past traumas of being told one was unfit for human company so one was locked in ones room for weeks in some instances for some infraction that one could never make sense of.
then factor in how much blocks can retraumatise people.
rationally one might 'know' better
but unfortunately blocks don't work that way.
and bob's attitude seems to be 'oh well it is for the good of the group'
but what if he is wrong?
and bob's attitude seems to be 'i'm worried about the possible people'
but what if they only exist in his head? how many actual people need to be harmed in the process?
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 18:49:16
In reply to Re: I don't understand » Estella, posted by AuntieMel on May 8, 2006, at 11:06:54
> If I did something to hurt you, I am really, really sorry.
>
> I sometimes disagree, and I enjoyed the sparring that we used to do. If I went too far with any of it, well I know it doesn't help much, but I really didn't mean to.its okay. i'm sorry. sometimes i feel like bob is just waiting for me to step one foot out of line in the sparring...
so he can move on in and block me.
i'm sorry. i don't feel safe :-( i don't feel safe here anymore :-( i don't feel safe anywhere. it isn't really the posters here. it is the blocks. yeah this place meant so much to me. but the blocks aren't worth it. they just about kill me. they do. and i think they do kill parts of me. or something. i don't know. i don't understand. but it's not safe.
and now i see what people have been going on about for years.
now i see.
the blocks aren't helping me they are killing me.
but i'm only one
and how can that compare to the possible people in bob's head?????
i've gone from trying my hardest and respecting the rules to this
and its a response to the blocking system.
i can't handle it.
yeah i know...
here is not the place.
i'm sorry.
Posted by Declan on May 9, 2006, at 4:53:34
In reply to Re: I don't understand » AuntieMel, posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 18:49:16
Hi Alex
It looks like the blocks are being applied more moderately. After Larry's 6(?) week block things changed. Things might be better in the future. You reckon?
Declan
Posted by greywolf on May 9, 2006, at 7:13:03
In reply to Re: It Isn't About the Civility Rules » greywolf, posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 18:43:09
Look, I understand that being blocked is no fun, and I understand how people can disagree with the reasoning behind why they were blocked or with the length of the block. This is not the first time I've been involved in a discussion of this issue.
But take a look at the majority of blocks. Of the group I've seen, there's a large percentage that are completely obvious violations--for instance, remarks that were intentionally made to disparage other people or to tell them off, and which, without doubt, were uncivil. IMHO, blocking in such circumstances--even for lengthy periods of time in the case of repeat offenders--is entirely appropriate. There are plenty of other sites out there to post on if the objective is to dump on other people or get into arguments.
A smaller percentage of the blocks I've seen fall into the judgment call group--for example, someone being banned for expressing his opinion of Republicans or the president in apparently too harsh terms. I have more trouble accepting the fairness of some of these determinations, but that's limited mostly to the first offenders who reasonably didn't think their posts would be any problem.
My bottom line? I think you can say just about anything you want in a civil way--if you really want to. However, that appears to be difficult for some people because it requires that they take the finger off the trigger and give up the cathartic feeling of telling others where to go.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 9, 2006, at 12:11:35
In reply to Re: It Isn't About the Civility Rules » Estella, posted by greywolf on May 9, 2006, at 7:13:03
> I have more trouble accepting the fairness of some of these determinations, but that's limited mostly to the first offenders who reasonably didn't think their posts would be any problem.
Is it only first offenders who might reasonably think their posts would not be any problem?
> My bottom line? I think you can say just about anything you want in a civil way--if you really want to.
And, what if you really think you did?
I agree with your premise. What if you found yourself blocked for this post? Hypothetically, what if? How might you feel?
It is easy to take your position, kind inquisitor. I once thought it to be as simple as you say. I truly hope that you never encounter that exception, a false positive finding of incivility.
Lar
Posted by greywolf on May 9, 2006, at 12:52:42
In reply to Re: It Isn't About the Civility Rules » greywolf, posted by Larry Hoover on May 9, 2006, at 12:11:35
> Is it only first offenders who might reasonably think their posts would not be any problem?
My comment was really more linear than you may have seen it. I was referring to those situations when someone finds out that a post they reasonably thought was fine has violated the civility rule. For instance, when an apparently innocuous post on the politics board is interpreted as being potentially offensive. They have my sympathy on the first violation because in those situations I probably wouldn't have predicted the problem either, but if they return to the same board and make similar comments after having been made aware that they're crossing the line, well, they were warned.
> > My bottom line? I think you can say just about anything you want in a civil way--if you really want to.
>And, what if you really think you did?
Again, I acknowledge that I have seen a small number of blocks that have left me scratching my head and asking "what was uncivil about that." But the majority of blocks I am aware of aren't even a close call (people swearing at others, personally attacking them, etc.)
> I agree with your premise. What if you found yourself blocked for this post? Hypothetically, what if? How might you feel?
I'd wonder what's going on. I'd then write the deputy or Dr. Bob for an explanation. If I felt the resolution was unfair, you wouldn't see me around here for awhile--just like most other people would probably handle it.
> It is easy to take your position, kind inquisitor. I once thought it to be as simple as you say. I truly hope that you never encounter that exception, a false positive finding of incivility.
>
> Lar
I hope so, too. But just in case, I try not to get too attached.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 9, 2006, at 15:08:22
In reply to Re: It Isn't About the Civility Rules » Larry Hoover, posted by greywolf on May 9, 2006, at 12:52:42
> > It is easy to take your position, kind inquisitor. I once thought it to be as simple as you say. I truly hope that you never encounter that exception, a false positive finding of incivility.
> >
> > Lar
>
>
> I hope so, too. But just in case, I try not to get too attached.Aye! But there's the rub.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 3:20:54
In reply to Re: As they say in AA, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:06:15
> people don't play nice
> they don't
> and neither does bobKeeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 3:21:43
In reply to fukkha dukkha » Estella, posted by zazenduck on May 7, 2006, at 12:30:31
> f[*]kkha dukkha
Please don't use language that could offend others.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 3:22:28
In reply to Undying Love » Dinah, posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 9:28:58
> if i hadn't emailed you...
Well, I'm glad you did.
> you ask us to be charitable to you
> to believe you are doing your best
>
> and you don't return that
>
> you don't give us the benefit of the doubt
> whether we are doing our best or not is considered simply irrelevant
>
> EstellaIt sounds like you may not feel this is a balanced relationship?
--
> Being smooth with the rules is rewarded, awkward support isn't.
>
> VerneBeing able to stay within the rules is rewarded in any system...
Bob
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 3:40:25
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Estella, posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 3:20:54
> > people don't play nice
> > they don't
> > and neither does bobi take it back...
and replace it withsometimes i feel very upset :-(
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 3:48:31
In reply to Re: As they say in AA, posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 3:22:28
> It sounds like you may not feel this is a balanced relationship?
i know it isn't a balanced relationship.
it isn't a balanced relationship by nature.
but why have more imbalance than there need to be?and in this case...
no i don't want to focus on my feelings. i want to focus on the facts. and the fact is that in the faq's you ask us to be charitable to you (well not in those words precisely i don't think but i'm sure you get the general drift) whereas when it comes to blockings you say that you just worry about the words on the page.
and you block people when IMHO in most cases the boards in general would profit more from working through the issue.
and what that means...
sometimes people just resign themselves to their likely fate.
like z.
:-(
and that leads to more infractions...
i still think the blocking system is too harsh
in the sense that it escalates the situation (with that poster)
and in the sense that people turn.and not just me.
there have been other people too...
not that i've turned exactly...
but it is damned hard :-(
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 4:02:27
In reply to Re: sorry » Dr. Bob, posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 3:40:25
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 4:07:16
In reply to Re: As they say in AA » Dr. Bob, posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 3:48:31
> it is damned hard :-(
It sure is! Keep working at it,
Bob
Posted by zazenduck on May 11, 2006, at 7:19:37
In reply to Re: please be civil » zazenduck, posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 3:21:43
I like you and think you are a good person. I was just trying to be supportive. I won't use that word again.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 11, 2006, at 10:02:32
In reply to Re: As they say in AA, posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 3:22:28
> Being able to stay within the rules is rewarded in any system...
>
> BobI'm truly curious, sir. What rewards accrue here? Are you drawing a similarity between reward and e.g. not being blocked? For clarity's sake, sir.
Lar
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 10:53:38
In reply to Re: As they say in AA, posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 4:07:16
> > it is damned hard :-(
> It sure is! Keep working at it,i think you worry about possible harms
to the point where you don't take proper account of actual harmsi think the blocking system harms more than it helps
it is too easy to block people
it is much harder to learn to work through conflict
(and please lets not turn this into a dichotomy of status quo or the horrors of complete self governance)
Posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 20:30:09
In reply to Re: As they say in AA » Dr. Bob, posted by Estella on May 11, 2006, at 10:53:38
why do you have such a harsh system that is more likely to encourage people to turn on you / other posters.
because...
you do see that that is what it is doing - right?
how is that supposed to be for the good of the boards?
you consider one set of factors and think it is working out.
but evidence to the contrary is writen off as an 'unintended side effect' that can happily be ignored by you.
you like all the excitement of conflict or something?
you like all the power that comes of blocking people?
i'm wary...
IMHO it is wise to be...
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2006, at 8:04:46
In reply to Sorry I wasn't trying to offend you » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenduck on May 11, 2006, at 7:19:37
This is the end of the thread.
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