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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 83 to 107 of 133. Go back in thread:
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:18:45
In reply to Re: or...., posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2005, at 18:15:04
> > > Um, why would the rules for this board apply anywhere else? They are by definition Dr. Bob's unique rules.
Aka "terms". Civility is a common term that means many things to many people. In the way it is used here, the local definition does not differentiate itself from a generally accepted definition, unless one carefully examines print on other pages. In fact, one well-educated person has argued in this thread that civility as used here is in fact cohesive with not only a broad concept of civility, but also of adulthood. The phrase "Terms of service" as is routinely affixed to tens of thousands of network services conjugates to mean explicitly particular terms of particular services in particular contexts.
> >
> > And hence, terms of service for this site. "terms of service" is the standard reference to behavioral expectations published in support of networked forums. Civility is seldom, if ever, used to describe expectations of terms of service at other forums.
>
> But it is part of the guidelines for posting here.Are you disagreeing that "terms of service" is a more specific description of the expectations at this site than "Civility" which is routinely misunderstood by some members to suggest a universal standard of civility?
>And if one is posting here, one must follow the guidelines here, just as when posting at a different site, one must follow the rules specified by that site. I'm not sure what the issue is. Dr. Bob's site, Dr. Bob's rules. Oma tupa, oma lupa; not mi casa, su casa.
> >If one posts here, they are asked to "be civil". If they post elsewhere, they are asked to comply with terms of service. The other matters you cite, such as thinking his house is my house, don't find a basis in my assertions.
> >
> > > Hmmm, I haven't read every word on this site, but I have never encountered any claim of ownership of the concept of "civility". Would you please provide a link or a quote?
> >
> > "Please be civil". What more evidence do we need than the statement itself? Either civility is what Robert Hsiung says it is, or it is a broader concept owned by society at large, which in this case does not always or even often align with expecations of his implicit terms of service.
>
> I disagree. I can hold both concepts at the same time...being civil according to Babble and being civil according to society are different uses of the word and have different requirements.Do you have any concern for those who don't hold those same concepts at the same time? Is your capacity to hold those concepts evidence of everyones capacity to hold a view similar to yours?
>
> > >The former is a request for a type of behavior and the latter is a characterization.
> >
> > And the request for a type of behavior, striclty, compliance with terms of service, characterizes non-compliance as less than civil, hence uncivilized. Does not the statement "Please wash your hands" imply that hands are unwashed and unclean?
>
> Nope. It is simply (or merely) a request for a behavior to occur. Said behavior may be occuring on a regular basis prior to the request; it may have never occured; it may be occuring at the exact same time of the request; and any other iteration of repetitions or ommissions.Is the statement "please be civil" ever addressed to a particular individual here except in the context of instances where he asserts the behavior has not occured?
> > >
> > > And this is really about making sure Dr. Bob gets enough sleep? awwwww
> >
> > Perhaps the administration could write a determination ....
> Perhaps he could. Are you requesting that he do so?You offered a definative citation. It says "perhaps."
>How do you define "critical service"?
One example of critical service would be a service described as occuring in potentially clinical milieu in which people occassionally present with the complaint that "I might die in the next few hours if I don't get help."
Posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 19:20:09
In reply to Re: Ok, » Dinah, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 18:57:30
>My original concern stated in this thread, in response to a request that I propose a first step toward more effective goverance patterned after the historic experience of nations worldwide, was that medical professionals do best to administer services based on established protocols developed in a process of peer review, and when they venture into new services, they do best to substantially involve peers in defining the scope and methods of those new protocols.
But... Dr Bob isn't offering us a service AS a medical professional. He simply provides us board space and moderates that so we don't turn on each other...
I thought that was clear enough from the mulit-guess quiz...
>This is especially a concern to me when new protocols are unique and are administered in a dynamic setting that requires judgement calls by the provider that can involve large numbers of people in diverse situations. I proposed seeking funding as a means of formally involving other organized, established groups that would help attend to matters involving efficacy, harm and liability.
So... You don't understand some of his decisions -> you don't think there is a rational basis to some of his decisions. You can't point out precisely what the problem is but you are thinking some other professional might be able to?
> Not the individual decisions, but policies. If policies were articulated to a board, a panel or even a limited partnership of professionals, the refinement and clarification gleaned from other professionals might result in more coherent explanations to those with less training -- and I don't mean to those, such as yourself, who assert an understanding of his terms, but to those who routinely represent that they don't understand some of his judgements.
Ah.
So we want to understand the rules better...
And how the rules are applied in particular determinations...Is that what this is about???
Posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 19:26:27
In reply to Re: or.... » gardenergirl, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:18:45
>Is the statement "please be civil" ever addressed to a particular individual here except in the context of instances where he asserts the behavior has not occured?
Please cite one instance of Dr Bob asserting that the behaviour was uncivil.
One where you disagreed on his determination.
I don't understand the problem here...
>One example of critical service would be a service described as occuring in potentially clinical milieu in which people occassionally present with the complaint that "I might die in the next few hours if I don't get help."
Dr Bob isn't providing a professional service to us.
That is made clear from the multi-guess quiz.IMO people shouldn't be allowed to say that kind of thing on the boards BECAUSE IT IS DISTRESSING TO THE POSTERS HERE AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO.
Dr Bob has no obligation to do anything in those cases.
None of us do.Though posters typically urge people to get help IRL and Dr Bob provides information and links to enable people to get help IRL.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:29:47
In reply to Re: or.... » gardenergirl, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:18:45
> >How do you define "critical service"?
>
> One example of critical service would be a service described as occuring in potentially clinical milieu in which people occassionally present with the complaint that "I might die in the next few hours if I don't get help."Of course this isn't a clinical milieu. And people are told up front that Babble is not going to provide that "help" and is not an appropriate place to seek it.
And we mean it. If people are suicidal, they are urged by fellow posters to get help IRL. We have no illusion that we are up to that situation, and Dr. Bob does not claim to provide that sort of service.
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:33:17
In reply to Re: Ok, » so, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:13:13
> So, if I'm now understanding you correctly, this is more or less a global crusade to bring about regulation and standardization to a new form of peer support?
If you could cite anything I've written that suggests to you my concerns are either "global" or that my response to his invitation to suggest a first step is a "crusade" I might more easily help clarify your understanding of my perspective.
>snipped.
I am open to understanding the views of those you hold out as a "large number." But I am replying to your request to help you better understand my perspective, not asking for further explanation of your views, which I believe I understand. It's not that I don't understand your view, its just that I don't find it to resolve all of my concerns. If I'm not mistaken, your view is that the number, large or small, that does not enjoy the atmosphere here and that potentially finds administrative style harmful can go somewhere else. If I correctly read the plain language of your comment, theirs, or our concerns at least as I represent them are potentially beyond your understanding. Do you find any further reason to attempt to understand my concerns, or even to articulate them in terms I can verify as an accurate description of my concerns?
>
> I trust you won't get all paternalistic on me here.I trust you will not consider my compliance with your request that I help you clarify your understanding of my perspective to be a paternalistic act.
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:38:34
In reply to Re: Ok, » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 19:20:09
> So we want to understand the rules better...
> And how the rules are applied in particular determinations...
>
> Is that what this is about???
>
no
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:39:06
In reply to Re: Ok, » Dinah, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:33:17
Sigh. No, I was being sincere.
I thought I understood, but after your last post I saw that I didn't understand before and understood even less now.
I take full responsibility for that. But I also take responsibility for perhaps not being able to understand.
I'd be perfectly willing to continue trying, but you'll have to talk in smaller bites maybe? if I'm to understand. And if you don't wish to change your communicative style, I perfectly understand, but I acknowledge my limitation in understanding what you're trying to say.
If that makes sense. I'm just saying there is a difference in communicative styles that is neither right nor wrong on either of our parts, but that may make discussion difficult.
All I meant by paternalistic (and perhaps I was overly succinct) is that some people have come here in the past and led me to understand that they believe we don't know what's best for us, and they would like to help us with that. I was trusting you to give us more credit than that.
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:41:39
In reply to Re: or.... » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 19:26:27
> Please cite one instance of Dr Bob asserting that the behaviour was uncivil.
>
>I have stated in this thread that demanding that people be civil is seen by some people as in implication that they are not being civil -- hence "uncivil".
If you did not read that, or if you don't agree that is one way of seeing things, or that some reasonable people see it that way, there may be little I can write that would help expand your understanding.
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:48:45
In reply to Re: Ok, » so, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:39:06
>
> ... some people have come here in the past and led me to understand ...Could you see that as a direction you went but that you might not have been led in that direction?
Or as you offered in an I-statement brief "when some people came here in the past, I developed an understanding that ...
> that they believe we don't know what's best for us, and they would like to help us with that.
Perhaps the uncertainty is over who is "us." You seem to define us as those who have made this a home of sorts, or who have established and maintained regular identities, comradaries or community roles. I am trying to be specific that I am refering to my interests and to those who hold interests similar to mine, which by your definition, just might not include you because your interests are different. Nonetheless, as the site is written "group" refers to the entire set of people who register a user name -- not just to those who profess a profound appreciation for the site.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:51:18
In reply to Re: Ok, » Dinah, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:48:45
But isn't it *impossible* to satisfy people of such very different interests?
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:54:41
In reply to Re: Ok, » so, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:51:18
> But isn't it *impossible* to satisfy people of such very different interests?
If I thought so, do you think i would be advocating otherwise? For that matter, would I be trying to help you understand my sense of possibility if I had no confidence in your capacity to understand?
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:56:32
In reply to Re: Ok,, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 19:54:41
So what changes could be done that would satisfy your interests without turning the site against mine?
To make it personal.
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:00:22
In reply to Re: Ok, » so, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:56:32
> So what changes could be done that would satisfy your interests without turning the site against mine?
>
> To make it personal.Would any other professional administrator's involvement in addition to that of Robert Hsiung be a step in turning the site against you?
Would defining the terms of service as terms of service turn the site against you?
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:03:40
In reply to Re: Ok,, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:00:22
> > So what changes could be done that would satisfy your interests without turning the site against mine?
> >
> > To make it personal.
>
> Would any other professional administrator's involvement in addition to that of Robert Hsiung be a step in turning the site against you?
>
> Would defining the terms of service as terms of service turn the site against you?
>
against your interests, that is. I'm trying to grill salmon, work, and correspond with you all at once.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:12:45
In reply to Re: Ok,, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:00:22
> > So what changes could be done that would satisfy your interests without turning the site against mine?
> >
> > To make it personal.
>
> Would any other professional administrator's involvement in addition to that of Robert Hsiung be a step in turning the site against you?It might. It would depend a whole lot on the other administrator. I told you I don't trust easily and I meant it. Dr. Bob has gone through hell and back to earn my trust, figuratively speaking.
Plus, I really do like the consistency that comes from having one moderator. But should Dr. Bob decide that it would be best to have more than one moderator, and chose one I could learn to trust, I wouldn't object.
He, and we, have also made various proposals along the way that would make moderating the boards easier for him. I think he's considering them.
>
> Would defining the terms of service as terms of service turn the site against you?
>
>
I've suggested that before. Not terms of service. I wouldn't like that because it would be totally incomprehensible to me. But I like "site guidelines". I'm nostalgic about PBC's. I'm a PBC virgin you know. And PDVSG (Please Don't Violate Site Guidelines) virgin doesn't have the same ring. But I'd be willing to put aside nostalgia to use wording that people who get upset at being told to be civil would find less upsetting.Salmon, yummm...
I appreciate your putting your time into this conversation.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:16:13
In reply to Re: Ok,, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:12:45
I like Please Abide By Site Guidelines better. It's phrased as a positive. (Can you tell I'm a mom?)
Hmmm... PABSG...
Still nostalgic.
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:22:36
In reply to Actually, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:16:13
So you are a virgin mother and the administrator is like a god?
I'm sorry, full-belly intoxication caught up with me. I'll enclose my serious reply in another post.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:24:06
In reply to Re: Actually -- silliness inside » Dinah, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:22:36
Posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2005, at 20:26:19
In reply to Re: Ok,, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:03:40
EEEEPPPP!
I'm afraid I have not been acting very zenesque, Thus, I am going to let this go. I get confused about who I am and what I'm about when I stray from the path. And I don't like feeling as if I am not being authentic, since that is something I value.
I really dislike inauthenticity.
gg
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:31:38
In reply to Re: Ok,, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:12:45
I would be less put off by instructions to please follow site guidelines than to please be civil. The former would send me looking for site guidelines, whereas the later sends me looking into my personal experiences regarding what is civil.
While there might be risk for you to learn to trust another person, I might ask whether the benefits you realized from developing trust for one person couldn't be expanded by developing trust for another?For that matter, if you benefited from learning to trust a person, could you potentially realize a similar benefit from learning to trust concepts that grew from one person's intitiative then were refined by others?
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:35:49
In reply to LOL. I think I like you when you're silly. (nm) » so, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:24:06
Posted by partlycloudy on May 23, 2005, at 20:37:34
In reply to Ommmmm, posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2005, at 20:26:19
You said that very authentically... (joke)
and I have the greatest of empathy with your feelings. (not joke)
pc
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:42:03
In reply to Re: Ok, » Dinah, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:31:38
But what if I didn't?
You asked if my interests would be in jeopardy. I don't like or trust all mental health professionals, by a long shot.
Nor do I have good experiences in trusting that people I like and trust will put their faith in other people I like and trust.
Apart from someone else having to endure the same trials that poor Dr. Bob had to endure. (oooh, i need a smiley)
There would be a more than reasonable chance that a second, never even mind third or fourth, moderator would be not liked or trusted by me, which would be against my interests, unless all had to answer to Dr. Bob, who I trust. But I think that would be against your interest.
And we only have to look at the laws of this land to know that no matter how much codification and reams of documentation are included in laws, there will always be inconsistency in applying it between individual (in the case of the law, judges) moderators. I still prefer the consistency of having the law of the site interpreted by one moderator.
Dr. Bob has proposed a system that I believe was intended in part to lessen his administrative burden. It would allow posters to have a system of reporting posts to him, so that he didn't have to review all posts. Wouldn't that achieve the same end, but retain the greater consistency that comes from having a single moderator?
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:50:54
In reply to only then? (nm) » Dinah, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 20:35:49
To employ Alexandra's test of logic.
I think I like you when you're silly implies only that I think I do not dislike you when you are silly.
It can't be discerned from the statement that I like or dislike you in other than silly states.
Because all of the following could be true.
I think I like you when you're silly.
I think I like you when you're serious.I think I like you when you're silly.
I think I don't like you when you're serious.I think I like you when you're silly.
I think I like you sometimes when you're serious, but sometimes I don't.I think I like you when you're silly.
I have no opinion about you when you're not.And various and sundry other permutations of all sorts of states not limited to silly or serious.
The truth is that I don't know you all that well. Unless I actually do, and don't know it. Because this is the internet and there's no way of telling that, is there? So going on the assumption that this is the third name you've ever posted on on Babble, which is all you've said you've posted on, I don't know you very well.
I'm making an effort to know you better.
I don't think you appear to be the sort of person who would appreciate statements of affection from someone who doesn't know you very well.
Have I at least correctly deduced that about you?
Because of course, I could be wrong. I don't know you very well.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2005, at 20:58:26
In reply to Re: Ommmmm » gardenergirl, posted by partlycloudy on May 23, 2005, at 20:37:34
Go forward in thread:
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
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