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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 428 to 452 of 536. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 18, 2005, at 0:53:23
In reply to Re: how long people can keep their place » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 0:07:33
> I would have thought that that would have been a better way of ensuring they remained small yet active.
Maybe, but if people think they might be kicked out, they might be less willing even to give them a try?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on May 18, 2005, at 4:51:30
In reply to Re: how long people can keep their place, posted by Dr. Bob on May 18, 2005, at 0:53:23
> > I would have thought that that would have been a better way of ensuring they remained small yet active.
> Maybe, but if people think they might be kicked out, they might be less willing even to give them a try?Yeah.
Maybe it would help to think of it as 'failing to renew ones membership' rather than being 'kicked out'.
But I take your point that you do want people to join up...
And I would prefer it if people didn't lose their place because of a hospitalisation or on holiday or have otherwise lost their internet access for a time.
And for whatever time x
there will always be the possibility of not being able to post for x+1Ok.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 22:36:17
Most people seem to not be so keen on the idea of small boards.
It has been suggested that people might be better able to deal with them (seeing as it looks like they are going to happen at any rate) if they were not publicly viewable.
The thought is that only members would be able to read the posts.
That way people who couldn't post to them wouldn't be able to read them either.
I guess people would be kind of 'taking their chances' in signing up. But they could wait a couple of weeks and then sign up to a different one if they liked...
That way there wouldn't be the 'outside looking in effect'.
What do people think?
Would this make the notion of small boards more palatable?????
Posted by partlycloudy on May 23, 2005, at 8:41:54
In reply to Small boards - only viewable by members???, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 22:36:17
I already feel isolated enough having a mental illness. I don't think being purposefully excluded from being able to view various small boards here would improve that feeling.
We're already a "gated" community in that you have to be a member in order to post - why compartmentalize us further?
I don't think that creating small restricted boards is a beneficial idea. Also, I post on multiple boards here, but not regularly. What I like is being able to contribute where I like, and when I like.
pc
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 9:24:16
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members???, posted by partlycloudy on May 23, 2005, at 8:41:54
Well, obviously I agree.
But given that small boards are a given, which Dr. Bob has told us they are, wouldn't it be better if they were also private?
That way they'd be more like IM's or Babblemails or any number of the other private off board contacts that already take place. And there wouldn't be the feeling of pressing your nose against a window you can't breach, watching friends enjoy conversations you are not free to join, and knowing they like it that way. My mother, for all her flaws, always taught me not to do that. If I was having a conversation in public, and someone I knew wanted to join in (and all Babblers are someone we know, right?), the circle was to widen. If necessary the topic could change, and further private communications could occur... in private.
But long before the book, she taught me "You Can't Say You Can't Play". My son's school has it as a school rule. In fact you aren't even allowed to *talk* about events where not everyone is invited, like birthday parties, in public. And the first rule I ever heard in my son's kindergarten was "Whoever you're called to be with by the teacher, you are absolutely delighted to be with that person."
From page 99 of "You Can't Say You Can't Play" by Vivian Gussin Paley.
["It's a private time with you and your dad," I suggest.
"Right. And sometimes you have times like that with your friends."
"No one would argue with the privacy of those occasions," I say. "But does the classroom qualify as private or public?"
A boy answers. "If he or she is your good friend you can invite them to your house. So, no. this isn't a private place."]
So that's my limited aim. Since Dr. Bob is going to go ahead with something I think is not such a good idea, it at least seems acceptable if he identifies what is public and what is private.
We all know off board contact goes on. And it might hurt knowing that xxx and yyy are Babblemailing, if you never get Babblemailed. But it seems to me to be an entirely different thing if you were to see the contents of the Babblemails and either respond on Social, where you're allowed (I always feel like a voyeur when I do that with 2000), or feel like you're not able to respond at all. Like your input is not welcome, because you aren't a member of the group that is included in the conversation.
It's against what Babble's about to me. Where even if good friends are discussing mangoes, perfect strangers are always welcome to drop in on the thread and add their mango experiences.
Posted by Nikkit2 on May 23, 2005, at 11:03:45
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members???, posted by partlycloudy on May 23, 2005, at 8:41:54
My reason for being "for them" is to be able to post somewhere where not all and sundry can read what I post..
Think I'd better follow up in an email before I get a PBC!
Nikki
Posted by JenStar on May 23, 2005, at 15:07:13
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » partlycloudy, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 9:24:16
I agree with Dinah. It takes some courage for newcomers and sporadic posters to join into conversations with "seasoned" babbles who have relationships established and are comfortable with each other. It takes time and multiple posts to get people interested enough in you before you actually join the "inner circle" of whatever group in which you are interested.
I'm afraid that making small, private groups will drive many of the interesting posters here into seclusion with the others to whom they regularly post, and will lengthen the "breaking the ice" period for newcomers. I'm worried that many of the regulars will migrate to the smaller boards, leaving big holes in the other, bigger boards. If people like Dinah and GG and some of the other backbones of the community left to spend most (or even more) of their time in small groups, I think the rest of us would feel a bit isolated and lost.
But then again, I'm a sporadic poster and reader; I come in from time to time and drift away again. It's interesting to hear what the regulars have to say!
thanks for listening,
JenStarIt does feel kind of
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 23, 2005, at 16:21:13
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » Dinah, posted by JenStar on May 23, 2005, at 15:07:13
> It does feel kind of
Did you want me to finish that Jen : )
how about..
cliquish at first, and small private boards might encourage that feeling, or encourage cliques, period. That's not to say that people are purposely being rude. It's just very easy to get comfortable and a little lazy and forget about the new babblers, who might feel they don't belong.
Anyway I agree with what Dinah had to say.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 16:44:26
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » Dinah, posted by JenStar on May 23, 2005, at 15:07:13
Well, thank you. :)
I can't speak for anyone else, but others have spoken for themselves. The idea doesn't hold much appeal for many of the veteran posters, including myself.
The way I always put it is that I don't want to post somewhere where my friends, including the friends I haven't met, can't post.
But Dr. Bob seems determined to implement small boards, I would at least like to see them not be visible to onlookers who are not invited to join. But I have no real hope that my arguments will be convincing to Dr. Bob. :(
Hope hurts.
Posted by JahL on May 23, 2005, at 17:11:33
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » JenStar, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 16:44:26
FWIW, I agree with you Dinah. I know this has been gone over time and time again, but I've got an emotional investment in this place - even tho' I don't post much anymore - and so I thought I'd offer my you my support.
Like Nikki, I was here when Babble consisted of just one board. One big community.
I'm disheartened by Dr B's ideas which will only serve to create a 'cliquish' environment.
Apart from anything else, it could do newcomers a disservice since there is every chance they will be deprived of the undoubted wisdom of some of our erudite regulars. As was pointed out elsewhere, it is inevitable that some group members will fall into the comfort zone of their own board and neglect the main boards. That's not a criticism of anybody - it's just human nature.
You wouldn't think it if you saw me, but I'm actually socially phobic, as are a lot of board members. Social rejection of any kind (i.e. not being invited to join a group) is anathema to such people. What happens to 'the kid no-one wants to play with'?
However, if Dr B does go ahead, as I'm sure he will, I have no problem with boards being kept from public viewing.
Just my opinion; I respect differing ones of course.
Cheers,
Jah.
P.S. Yes I do post on PB 2000 occasionally and yes I am a hypocrite!
> I can't speak for anyone else, but others have spoken for themselves. The idea doesn't hold much appeal for many of the veteran posters, including myself.
>
> The way I always put it is that I don't want to post somewhere where my friends, including the friends I haven't met, can't post.
>
> But Dr. Bob seems determined to implement small boards, I would at least like to see them not be visible to onlookers who are not invited to join. But I have no real hope that my arguments will be convincing to Dr. Bob. :(
>
> Hope hurts.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 17:30:13
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » Dinah, posted by JahL on May 23, 2005, at 17:11:33
Well, I have to confess I'd like to chat with some people with 2000 who rarely venture off. I feel Shar's and Noa's absence keenly. I really enjoy Nikki, but manage to chat with her on some of the smaller boards and here on Admin. I see Racer from time to time as well. I know I could manage to track down Scott on PB proper, but I don't have all that many medication questions. I love to read Phil's posts. I'd like to get to know you better.
I don't think of it in terms of hypocrisy though. Just, as you mentioned, a sense of loss. I appreciate the support.
Pssst. Believe it or not, I have some social anxiety as well. So I'll extend an invitation to you personally to join me wherever you see me. :) Which on my more prolific days should be just about anywhere. lol.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 18:15:35
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » JahL, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 17:30:13
Maybe it would be better to make the small boards viewable only to members of the board.
I’m not sure whether it would make a difference whether you were able to
1) See the thread titles, but have to join to open the posts.
2) See the link, but have to join to follow the link to the boards off your homepage or off the other boards.I was a member of a board (BPD net.nz) where the link to each board had the subject header of the newest thread to the board.
You had to join to enter into each board and see all the subject headers and read the posts.
Once you had been a member for a while you could request membership to the journals board.
You had to be a member of the journals board before you could enter into that board and see all the subject headers and read the posts.Babble is a bit different…
People follow links to the boards from your homepage or from off the other boards.
The posts are all publicly viewable and membership is only required to make a new entry.You said that you were worried about how people could decide whether they wanted to join or not.
The way the other board was laid out you could tell by viewing the board titles and by seeing the header of the newest entry with a new indicator.Would it be technically difficult / time consuming to change registration so people had to register to follow the links to the small boards,
or to open the posts?
You could put a ‘new indicator’ on the link to the small board if it has been posted to…
Posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2005, at 18:36:59
In reply to Re: Small boards - Dr Bob, posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 18:15:35
I absolutely agree that if small boards are implemented, they should NOT be for public viewing. I don't really see the point if they are public, although I guess you would at least know that if you posted something, only X number of people could possibly respond. Hmm, think of all the good responses you might miss, though. And think of someone reading your post, and wanting to respond, and finding themselves restricted. That already happens on the newbies board and the 2000 board. How likely are folks to make a reply somewhere else in hopes that someone sees it? And if they did, isn't that defeating the purpose of small boards?
I do NOT want to be someone with my nose pressed up to the glass wishing I were part of a group. And I WILL NOT be inside the window seeing the nose prints and wondering who stopped by.
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 19:28:32
In reply to Re: Small boards - Dr Bob, posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2005, at 18:36:59
Best to see the threads but not open the posts...
Or
Best to not even be able to see the threads...
Do ya think???
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:31:20
In reply to Re: Small boards - Dr Bob » gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 19:28:32
Not see the threads.
I see it as being very analogous to Babblemail.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2005, at 20:29:18
In reply to Re: Small boards - Dr Bob » gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 19:28:32
I really don't know. I can't put myself in the place of wanting to read and maybe join, so I have no idea, sorry.
gg
Posted by Nikkit2 on May 24, 2005, at 4:30:00
In reply to Re: Small boards » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2005, at 20:29:18
The only reason I would like the small boards is for somewhere I can once again talk openly.
I don't think I really care though.. I think all my care for this place is leaking out. theres, maybe, half a dozen people here that I would *hate* to lose touch with.. but unfortunately I can't face have my words completely misunderstood anymore..
I try to post help, I can get critised.. I post in pain, and my words get bought to admin to picked over like some roadside carion..
is it actually worth it anymore?
A "small board" would give me some safety. Somewhere I would know the people I was posting to much better, and not have to worry how 3000 other people might misconstrue my words.
Actually, today, I am growing to really dislike this place.
Posted by Minnie-Haha on May 24, 2005, at 16:26:21
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » partlycloudy, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 9:24:16
> ... given that small boards are a given, which Dr. Bob has told us they are, wouldn't it be better if they were also private?
>
> That way they'd be more like IM's or Babblemails or any number of the other private off board contacts that already take place. And there wouldn't be the feeling of pressing your nose against a window you can't breach, watching friends enjoy conversations you are not free to join, and knowing they like it that way...I was so the outsider in junior high and high school, so I think I understand your reluctance to have private groups. And though some might like feeling exclusive, I don't think that's what this is all about.
The Psycho-Babble community has grown to the point where some feel lost, or left out, or bullied... or whatever. I can't keep track of but about a dozen people myself. It's like trying to feel cozy at a huge convention. Some must have thought "Wouldn't it be nice if we could have a forum like this, that was smaller (again)?"
This site is strange because it's private in one respect: you have to register to post. But it's very public in other respects: you don't have to be registered to read the posts, and in fact you can Google and find all sorts of interesting stuff. Even find out about people with real names (for those who don't have anonymous names or "handles" or whatever you call them).
One month ago, I tried to start a Yahoo group for Psycho-Babble women -- a complement to the PB boards. You had to apply to join (send an email sharing your PB name) and the posts were all private. The only things public were the links, which all members could update. My gosh, you'd think I'd committed a crime. I thought it might be a more intimate group for lady Babblers, but the idea was received like a joke, or maybe a threat. (Though some joined and we had a few good threads: menopause, beauty products, stuff like that. Thanks ladies.)
> So that's my limited aim. Since Dr. Bob is going to go ahead with something I think is not such a good idea, it at least seems acceptable if he identifies what is public and what is private.
I haven't really made up my mind yet about whether or not such boards, when and if they do arrive, should be public or private. But I don't think it's traitorous for some to want them, just inevitable.
Posted by Dinah on May 24, 2005, at 17:04:05
In reply to For me.., posted by Nikkit2 on May 24, 2005, at 4:30:00
Ah Nikki. That was rotten timing. The criticism I mean.
Most people on the board appreciate your input. In any given situation, most is about as much as you can hope for.
Was it Lincoln who said you can please some Babblers all of the time, and all Babblers some of the time (I actually don't think pleasing all Babblers is possible any of the time - excuse me Mr. Lincoln), but you can't please all Babblers all of the time?
I figure if there's only a minority of people who detest me, I'm doing pretty good. (A lot better than I've done in the past at any rate. grin.)
I can understand the desire to have private conversations. I babblemail, go to Open, and conference. I'm just not sure what good it would do to make it visible to people who weren't able to be part of the conversation.
So while we may come to the same conclusion by different means, we end up at the same conclusion, right?
The small boards, if implemented, should be visible to only those registered to post on them.
Posted by Dinah on May 24, 2005, at 17:06:48
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members???, posted by Minnie-Haha on May 24, 2005, at 16:26:21
It is inevitable that some people want smaller environments. Some entire groups have moved themselves to other formats when they've gotten angry with Dr. Bob or another poster.
But what would be the possible benefits of making the posts of a private conversation public?
Posted by JahL on May 24, 2005, at 17:26:02
In reply to For me.., posted by Nikkit2 on May 24, 2005, at 4:30:00
Hi Nikki.
FWIW I do understand.
You, like me, are perhaps apt to speak your mind and unfortunately there is always going to be the odd poster who sees the opportunity for an argument. I was perhaps one of those people once; I would jump all over anyone trying to sell me psychotherapy. I'd like to think I've calmed down a bit since then...
An illustration; even though noone other than Scott really converses with me on the 2000 board, I had to post there recently because someone was on my case (I was disnissed as 'Mr Dopehead' because I choose to smoke MJ) and I was fit to flip. I have a real temper on me and my next post would've got me blocked.
As you say, there's nothing worse than having your heartfelt posts picked apart for no good reason other than someone's got too much time on their hands and is spoiling for a fight.
So I do understand. If people want small groups badly enough then I guess they'll happen.
Take care,
Jah.
> .... but unfortunately I can't face have my words completely misunderstood anymore..
>
> I try to post help, I can get critised.. I post in pain, and my words get bought to admin to picked over like some roadside carion..
>
Posted by Minnie-Haha on May 24, 2005, at 17:36:27
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » Minnie-Haha, posted by Dinah on May 24, 2005, at 17:06:48
> It is inevitable that some people want smaller environments. Some entire groups have moved themselves to other formats when they've gotten angry with Dr. Bob or another poster.
Sometimes it not anger though. For instance, in my case I wanted to talk to other women Babblers. I actually would have encouraged the women's group members to go to Psycho-Babble to discuss meds, psychotherapy, stuff like that (unless they were so uncomfortable doing that as to be painful).
> But what would be the possible benefits of making the posts of a private conversation public?
I can think of a few, though maybe some have come up before. One might be to make the posts searchable, just like they are now. Another might be to assure other Babblers that they aren't being talked about. A third might be technical; maybe private groups would be hard for Dr. Bob to set up and/or administer in the current environment. And I'm sure this has come up before, but if they're private, then will Dr. Bob still lay down the law, so to speak, or will the members police themselves? If they police themselves, the doctor will give up some of his authority. He's a nice guy and all, but sometimes it's hard to let go. And maybe he shouldn't for liability reasons. (Look what you let happen under your very nose!)
Like I said though, I haven't made up my mind on this yet. I do feel bad that it's causing you and others so much pain. Some of you have a lot more emotional capital invested in the site than I. It seems almost like you're already grieving for the way it used to be.
Posted by JahL on May 24, 2005, at 17:42:16
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » JahL, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 17:30:13
> Well, I have to confess I'd like to chat with some people with 2000 who rarely venture off. I'd like to get to know you better.
Why thank you. Ditto. It's obvious to me you care deeply about this site. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that w/o PB I probably wouldn't be here today. I learnt how to self medicate here (I know Dr B disapproves, outwardly at least) and that's what's enabled me to at least function adequately and keep the gun in the cabinet.
> ...join me wherever you see me. :) Which on my more prolific days should be just about anywhere. lol.I've noticed! ;-)
J.
Posted by Dinah on May 24, 2005, at 17:44:25
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members??? » Dinah, posted by JahL on May 24, 2005, at 17:42:16
Posted by Dinah on May 24, 2005, at 17:52:17
In reply to Re: Small boards - only viewable by members???, posted by Minnie-Haha on May 24, 2005, at 17:36:27
> Sometimes it not anger though.
Agreed.
>
> > But what would be the possible benefits of making the posts of a private conversation public?
>
> I can think of a few, though maybe some have come up before. One might be to make the posts searchable, just like they are now.The main benefit of searchable posts is for information, right? I would assume that if someone was looking for information, he/she would probably post on the medication page, or appropriate page. Unless you happened to have an expert in the small group.
> Another might be to assure other Babblers that they aren't being talked about.
I would assume that Dr. Bob would police the small boards with at least as much vigor as he does the larger boards. I trust him. Besides, if people want to talk about me, they probably can and do in babblemail etc. And hopefully they'd have something better to talk about.
> A third might be technical; maybe private groups would be hard for Dr. Bob to set up and/or administer in the current environment.
I'm sure Dr. Bob would enjoy tackling whatever technical challenge making private conversations private would entail. He managed Babblemail.
> And I'm sure this has come up before, but if they're private, then will Dr. Bob still lay down the law, so to speak, or will the members police themselves? If they police themselves, the doctor will give up some of his authority. He's a nice guy and all, but sometimes it's hard to let go. And maybe he shouldn't for liability reasons. (Look what you let happen under your very nose!)
I would hope that he would uphold the same standards he upholds everywhere.
>
> Like I said though, I haven't made up my mind on this yet. I do feel bad that it's causing you and others so much pain. Some of you have a lot more emotional capital invested in the site than I. It seems almost like you're already grieving for the way it used to be.
>
Not all objections are based on nostalgia any more than all splinter groups result from anger. :)
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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