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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Minnie-Haha on April 14, 2005, at 14:37:56
From time to time strong debate arises about the posts of Lou Pilder. I'm sure there have been past discussions about what to do about posters like Lou. Forgive me for bringing it up again, but it’s really starting to eat at me.
There are many who get annoyed with Lou (myself included) and would like him to cool it. There are others who defend Lou’s right to express himself freely (including myself). However, this is a message board, an electronic SUPPORT group for sufferers of various psychological disorders. We all registered to use this site and agreed to abide by certain rules (written and unwritten I suppose, as civilized societies do). I think it can be argued that Lou's posts are disruptive in their quantity and quality, and constitute a form of badgering of the whole group, including Dr. Bob, the man who is nice enough to administer this awesome resource.
I did an informal count (I can be as obsessive as the next person) and between September 2004 and today, Lou has started approximately 150 threads on the Administration board. The majority ask Dr. Bob to make a call on expressions of faith or figures of speech. Having been on the receiving end of one of Lou’s “clarification” requests, I know how frustrating it can feel.
In addition to looking at the sheer numbers of Lou’s posts (and his start-up posts only make up a small fraction of his total posts), consider the quality.
First, does anybody else get confused or stressed about the abbreviations Lou uses in his subject lines? Examples: “fth-ptycldy,” “hrdtmwtsxulatrct,” “soudmntlheth.” They seem to be some sort of shorthand to himself. What purpose do they serve the board? Does he keep a log of what we write? Although we have screen names to protect our privacy, I kinda feel like Big Brother is watching over me. And then, how does one follow—or heaven forbid, respond to—a post when he's taken someone else’s original and parsed it into his own peculiar citation system. Here are two examples.
BEGIN post “Lou's rerquest for clarification” dated September 4, 2004:
Dr. Hsiung,
Could you clarify what allows the poster to wtrite without admonishment the statement:
[...He,(god) says that {Jesus is the only way to Him.} No other way is given by God except through the salvation offered by Jesus...].
If I was to know why you are allowing that post without admonishment when sin\milar posts are admonished,, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordinglyEND post.
BEGIN post “Lou request to Dr. Hsiung-grnofnacl2” dated February 21, 2005:
Dr Hsiung,
I am requesting that you write a determination as to the acceptablility or not in relation to the guidlines ofthe forum for the following:
The poster writes,[...Please, please take {anything} "dancingstar" says with a grain of salt....].
I feel that IMO this use if that idiom has the potential to be not acceptable here.
The idiom has an origin going back 200 years or so when salt was thought to have healing properties and also to be an antidote to poisons. Hence, when the idiom was originally used, it had the potential to mean that what the person was saying could be poisonous to you so you should {...take what is said with a grain if salt...].
Lou PilderEND post.
Huh? These are two of Lou’s most common types of posts. One asks Dr. Bob to be a theologian (frankly, I get tired of all the Jesus and Jew squabbles that have to get moderated here) and the other asks him to be an etymologist; both ask him to be a cop (and one might say a mind reader as well).
When one person is constantly asking Dr. Bob—a busy man with his own life outside this board—for rulings that others rarely feel the need for, when one person’s posts overshadow others, how is that person being a civil member of the group? How would we expect everyone to behave if we were meeting together in person to support each other? Some might say Lou serves as a moral compass, or perhaps a watchdog, defending others here. But I suggest that his incessant requests for clarification can discourage the free speech of those here who are timid and virtually incite to riot those who are quick to anger.
I like to come to the Admin board from time to time to get a feel for the overall ideas, questions and concerns of the board, but when most of what I see is Lou’s requests to clarify this or that over and over and over again, I don’t know about you guys, but it really stresses me out. I suppose this satisfies some need of his, but I don’t think his needs should be waved in our faces night and day.
So what do we do about posters like Lou?
Talk among yourselves…
Posted by messadivoce on April 14, 2005, at 15:31:27
In reply to Minnie's request to fellow board members (long), posted by Minnie-Haha on April 14, 2005, at 14:37:56
One of the aspects that I find unique and special about this board is that people here, for the most part, are able to co-exist despite huge differences in opinion, background, religion, values, morals, ethics, personality, race, sexual-orientation, I could go on and on.
But with such diversity, there are bound to be problems, annoyances, eye-rolling, misunderstandings, and the like. But I think that it's really cool that no one is able to "block" or "ignore" another poster, and there are blessed few "please do not post to me" requests.
At the end of the day, this is Dr. Bob's site. I am not suggesting that he is infallible, just that this site belongs to him and he has the right to determine what is "civil" (and his definition probably differs from other people's definitions but it's HIS SITE). So, if a poster is not bothering him, then I try to take the attitude that it doesn't bother me. And I develop a thicker skin, find the humor, don't read people's posts, or try to see it from their standpoint, even if I am in total disagreement.
Of course it can be "argued" that Lou's posts are disruptive. (I'm not going to pretend that this thread isn't targeted at a particular poster.) But it can also be argued that Lou is a sincere person who is exercising the right to express himself. Not knowing Lou personally, I can't form an opinion. I do know how I *feel* but I don't know how Lou feels.
Granted, I have never had one of my posts scrutinized by Lou, but I can imagine it must be frustrating. But just like in real life, people may not always live up to our definition of sensitivity, and so it's neccessary to grant people leway and grace when they don't respond how you would like (I'm a big advocate of personal responsibility, can you tell?).
The longer I'm alive (and I'm only 22) I'm realizing that people are going to get under my skin for the rest of my life. It doesn't matter if I'm in therapy, or taking meds. People IRL don't discriminate on the basis of that, so I have to learn to live with people who don't approach life the same way, as annoying as I may find this.
In regards to "big brother", well, I must tell you that even if Lou were not here, Dr. Bob reads almost every post. So regardless of Lou, Big Brother is watching. As well he should. It's his site. The only difference is that we are less aware because he gives less input. And no offense, but you counting Lou's threads on Admin could be construed as you acting as "Big Brother" to him personally.
As to his abbreviations, I do find them interesting, but they don't cause me "stress" although others may disagree. Although I am interested in the system he has for these, and if he wouldn't mind sharing, I'd be interested in knowing.
To summarize the world as I see it:
1. I'm responsible for my own feelings, actions and reply posts.
2. It's Dr. Bob's site. If he's okay with a thread then I'm okay with it. Call me a suck up. Call me a pacifist. Whatever. That is how the site works.
Posted by Minnie-Haha on April 14, 2005, at 16:17:31
In reply to Re: Minnie's request to fellow board members (long) » Minnie-Haha, posted by messadivoce on April 14, 2005, at 15:31:27
I agree with just about everything you said... And I wish I might have been so well-balanced when I was 22. However, I think there is a difference between my one-time counting of Lou's posts (threads started only--it took maybe 10 minutes) to make a point, and someone who day-in, day-out polices what others are saying--apparently reads them looking for transgressions. I also think there's a difference between my sincere effort to do something about people whose posts stress me out (I'm a board member for whom anxiety is an issue) and someone whose behavior suggests that he/she might track what we say. (Though I do expect that Dr. Bob watches over things here.)
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 14, 2005, at 18:04:01
In reply to Re: Minnie's request to fellow board members (long) » Minnie-Haha, posted by messadivoce on April 14, 2005, at 15:31:27
I really really like what you said, especially:
>
> The longer I'm alive (and I'm only 22) I'm realizing that people are going to get under my skin for the rest of my life. It doesn't matter if I'm in therapy, or taking meds. People IRL don't discriminate on the basis of that, so I have to learn to live with people who don't approach life the same way, as annoying as I may find this.
Lou's posts don't bother me personally, at all.
Quite a few times he's opened up a new way of thinking for me, which I value very much.
The way he codes his posts, I think is clever, that way he said if he needs to quote a post to Dr.Bob, it's easy for him to find the right one.However I know that other people feel attacked when their posts are brought up for scrutiny, especially if it's a situation when it appears the "correctness" of the post takes precedent over the pain they are feeling. I don't know what to do about that. I always feel bad and can understand why they are hurt, but I feel two-faced about it sometimes. It's not meant to be it's just that I really don't know what to think.
There have been one or two *civil* posters here who have really gotten on my nerves, though they may not bother others at all. I don't think it's my right to bring up their posting style for examination and wonder "what to do with them"
I do for the most part think that if it's not getting to Dr. Bob then I should just not read the posts that may irritate me. Something I need to learn to do better I might add.. :(
Posted by 10derHeart on April 14, 2005, at 18:26:10
In reply to Minnie's request to fellow board members (long), posted by Minnie-Haha on April 14, 2005, at 14:37:56
Actually,...I must first admit I am pretty uncomfortable talking about Lou as if he weren't "here." Putting myself in his place to the extent I can, I'm afraid it might feel hurtful to run across this thread. But since it already exists, that can't be helped, so I'll go ahead and comment a little.
I agree with everything messadivoce stated so articulately. Unless someone here truly isn't human, (!) there will come a time where posters, threads, or a combination, will trigger things and cause emotional reactions. It has definitely happened to me. But it's a part of Babble, exactly the way it's a part of RL, and I'm not thinking the answer is to "do something" about them. (Unless they are uncivil, obviously) Lou isn't violating the civility rules, as far as I see.
The only fair, kind and responsible thing I can think of, is essentially to do nothing. I know THAT is not very articulate or helpful but hopefully you get my meaning.
What about addressing some of your concerns directly to Lou? Then he could maybe clarify some things for you, and others could help out if they wanted? Or perhaps Babblemail, if both of you were willing? Those ways seem most appropriate to me.
But, if your goal is just to get Lou to stop posting his own questions, in his style and at his frequency, I'm unsure where that would go. Then again, Lou is a smart guy, often willing to engage in dialog. Maybe some new understanding and accomodations toward each other could result...who knows?!
Posted by 10derHeart on April 14, 2005, at 18:29:03
In reply to Re: Minnie's request to fellow board members (long) » messadivoce, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 14, 2005, at 18:04:01
>>Something I need to learn to do better I might add.. :(
Oh yes, Gabbi, me, too, me, too...I do torture myself sometimes...glad I'm not the only one
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 14, 2005, at 18:55:52
In reply to Minnie's request to fellow board members (long), posted by Minnie-Haha on April 14, 2005, at 14:37:56
> From time to time strong debate arises...
>
> We all registered to use this site and agreed to abide by certain rulesSuch as not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused -- even if strong debate arises.
> Lou's posts are disruptive in their quantity and quality, and constitute a form of badgering
I've asked you to be civil before, so now I’m going to block you from posting for a week.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 14, 2005, at 20:05:04
In reply to Re: Minnie's request to fellow board members (long) » Minnie-Haha, posted by 10derHeart on April 14, 2005, at 18:26:10
> Actually,...I must first admit I am pretty uncomfortable talking about Lou as if he weren't "here." Putting myself in his place to the extent I can, I'm afraid it might feel hurtful to run across this thread. But since it already exists, that can't be helped, so I'll go ahead and comment a little.
Yes I was too, I've mentioned that before when this topic comes up. SORRY LOU!
And thank you 10derHeart for being you, I love reading what you have to say, and learn much, especially from the *way* you respond.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 14, 2005, at 20:56:43
In reply to Re: Minnie's request to fellow board members (long) » 10derHeart, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 14, 2005, at 20:05:04
I have to say it again, because this has happened a few times now. I just can't imagine how crappy it would feel to have my name hauled up on admin inviting people to offer suggestions on how to deal with me. YUCK!
Posted by 10derHeart on April 14, 2005, at 21:40:46
In reply to Yá Know.., posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 14, 2005, at 20:56:43
Yup. Totally yuckky to the max! You are a good champion for Lou and others - I admire that!
I was WAY too easy on that aspect, I know. But I was 99% sure a block was coming oh-so-soon, and it did. So that maybe helps Lou (hope so, Lou)
Just tried to impart some perspective, or peace, or kindness, or something I might have to offer before some folks have to go on a "forced vacation." <sigh> oh well, such is Babbleland.PS - And what you wrote about me above...well, I'm...uhhh..wow. THANK YOU. That means more than you will ever know. I'm still in the learning stages, but have had wonderful teachers here, and a bit in real life. Learned the hard way everyonedoes NOT see stuff as I do, and I'm determined to never forget that! I much appreciate your posting style as well!
PPS - sorry DB, I may be gettin' a bit too dern Social over here on Admin, dang it all :-)
Posted by KaraS on April 15, 2005, at 0:47:20
In reply to Yá Know.., posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 14, 2005, at 20:56:43
> I have to say it again, because this has happened a few times now. I just can't imagine how crappy it would feel to have my name hauled up on admin inviting people to offer suggestions on how to deal with me. YUCK!
>
>He often brings up other people's posts for consideration which has ended up making many of them feel VERY BAD. My opinion is that if he can dish it out, then he ought to be able to take it himself.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 15, 2005, at 1:47:58
In reply to Re: Yá Know.. » Gabbi-x-2, posted by KaraS on April 15, 2005, at 0:47:20
> He often brings up other people's posts for consideration which has ended up making many of them feel VERY BAD. My opinion is that if he can dish it out, then he ought to be able to take it himself.
He does, and I'd mentioned that in my previous post. But to me anyway, it's different, the need to checking different parts of posts to see if they are "ok". I don't see that as 'dishing it out' I think it's a genuine need to know the rules of the board.
Whereas posting about someone in detail, and asking 'what should be done about them?' is to me distinctly more personal. And no matter what negative things have been said to Lou about him as a person, I've never seen him respond in kind.
However hurt is hurt, and that's why in my other post I said sometimes I feel two faced about it because no matter what it's causing pain.
But I don't think two wrongs make a right.
>
>
Posted by AuntieMel on April 15, 2005, at 10:52:19
In reply to Re: Yá Know.. » Gabbi-x-2, posted by KaraS on April 15, 2005, at 0:47:20
{Sorry Lou - I'm talking about you again}
It has been my observance about the requests that there has never been anything personal about them.
Over time I have noticed that they are just what they say they are - requests on a particular bit of wording as to whether they fall under the guidelines.
I sincerely do *not* think it is to get someone in trouble - it is merely so that Lou can refine in his mind what makes for civility. In other words, I think all he is doing is parsing the language.
Maybe there are a lot of requests, but I've never known them to be argumentative. It's a simple 'is this civil?' and if Dr. Bob says it is then the matter is dropped.
I have had some of mine questioned, but (maybe) because I look at them the way it hasn't bothered me.
But then again - I've just found out that I am brainwashed. <must toe the line. Dr. Bob is king>
grin.
Posted by KaraS on April 15, 2005, at 11:22:00
In reply to Re: Yá Know.. Kara Minnie, posted by AuntieMel on April 15, 2005, at 10:52:19
> {Sorry Lou - I'm talking about you again}
>
> It has been my observance about the requests that there has never been anything personal about them.
>
> Over time I have noticed that they are just what they say they are - requests on a particular bit of wording as to whether they fall under the guidelines.
>
> I sincerely do *not* think it is to get someone in trouble - it is merely so that Lou can refine in his mind what makes for civility. In other words, I think all he is doing is parsing the language.
>
> Maybe there are a lot of requests, but I've never known them to be argumentative. It's a simple 'is this civil?' and if Dr. Bob says it is then the matter is dropped.
>
> I have had some of mine questioned, but (maybe) because I look at them the way it hasn't bothered me.
>
> But then again - I've just found out that I am brainwashed. <must toe the line. Dr. Bob is king>
>
> grin.
You're absolutely right. I don't think that Lou's posts are meant to hurt anyone... but unfortunately they do. They hurt others because he is focussed on clarification of a point and not on how that request for clarification may make someone else feel.I am sorry for my previous post.
Kara
Posted by 10derHeart on April 15, 2005, at 16:27:06
In reply to Re: Yá Know.. Kara Minnie, posted by AuntieMel on April 15, 2005, at 10:52:19
>>But then again - I've just found out that I am brainwashed.
Ah well, at least you have a clean mind then. Unlike myself ;-)
<must toe the line. Dr. Bob is king>
Better make that *predator-king* there, missy.
>>grin <<< pretense, pretense, pretense
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 15, 2005, at 17:46:35
In reply to Re: Yá Know.. Kara Minnie » AuntieMel, posted by 10derHeart on April 15, 2005, at 16:27:06
> >>But then again - I've just found out that I am brainwashed.
>
> Ah well, at least you have a clean mind then. Unlike myself ;-)
>
> <must toe the line. Dr. Bob is king>
>
> Better make that *predator-king* there, missy.
>
> >>grin <<< pretense, pretense, pretense
>
You are *BAD* missy..
>
Posted by 10derHeart on April 15, 2005, at 18:32:06
In reply to Re: Yá Know.. Kara Minnie » 10derHeart, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 15, 2005, at 17:46:35
Why, thank you! To the bone, sometimes.
Perhaps I am trying to rid myself of PBC-virgin status....perhaps I shall try even harder...or not.. ;-)
Posted by gardenergirl on April 15, 2005, at 21:33:29
In reply to Re: Yá Know.. Kara Minnie » Gabbi-x-2, posted by 10derHeart on April 15, 2005, at 18:32:06
You know, those of us who are Babble and have been assimilated?
And what color do you suppose the resistance wears? Good to know what's what, you know. ;)
gg
Posted by 10derHeart on April 15, 2005, at 22:17:10
In reply to What color are our uniforms? » 10derHeart, posted by gardenergirl on April 15, 2005, at 21:33:29
Ha ha ha! From this:
What color are our uniforms?.... I thought you meant uniforms for "PBC Virgins" which I suppose might have to be white...?> You know, those of us who are Babble and have been assimilated?
Weeelll....since I'm retired from the USAF, mine Used To Be blue, so I'd prefer maybe something different this time? Perhaps we should research which color represents insincerity and pretension, which are apparently quite important to us?
> And what color do you suppose the resistance wears? Good to know what's what, you know. ;)
Stealing from someone else's idea (Gabbi? Emmy?) but what color is Alien? You know "vs. Predator?"
Posted by gardenergirl on April 16, 2005, at 11:57:59
In reply to Re: What color are our uniforms? » gardenergirl, posted by 10derHeart on April 15, 2005, at 22:17:10
How about we all where a lovely taupe?
:P
gg
Posted by 10derHeart on April 16, 2005, at 15:54:01
In reply to Re: What color are our uniforms? » 10derHeart, posted by gardenergirl on April 16, 2005, at 11:57:59
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 17, 2005, at 12:17:30
In reply to Bleck (nm) » gardenergirl, posted by 10derHeart on April 16, 2005, at 15:54:01
Posted by AuntieMel on April 18, 2005, at 14:39:30
In reply to Re: Yá Know.. Kara Minnie » AuntieMel, posted by KaraS on April 15, 2005, at 11:22:00
Thank you for listening to me an considering another view.
I just keep thinking that as people get to understand that the questions are curiosity instead of accusatory they might not feel attacked by them.
Just as I've also come to know that when Lou asks for a clarification from a poster he really wants to know what was intended before responding. It's like the opposite of jumping to conclusions.
But even then there is a difference between knowing something {head} and *knowing* something {heart} and - for me at least - the second one usually lags far behind the other.
Posted by KaraS on April 18, 2005, at 23:50:44
In reply to Re: Thank you » KaraS, posted by AuntieMel on April 18, 2005, at 14:39:30
> Thank you for listening to me an considering another view.
>
> I just keep thinking that as people get to understand that the questions are curiosity instead of accusatory they might not feel attacked by them.
>
> Just as I've also come to know that when Lou asks for a clarification from a poster he really wants to know what was intended before responding. It's like the opposite of jumping to conclusions.
>
> But even then there is a difference between knowing something {head} and *knowing* something {heart} and - for me at least - the second one usually lags far behind the other.
You're welcome. You'd make a good debater (or is that debator?). I'm too lazy to look it up but you get the point.I think sometimes that my heart knows before my head... or perhaps they're both clueless :-)
Take care,
Kara
Posted by Minnie-Haha on April 22, 2005, at 13:20:25
In reply to Yá Know.., posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 14, 2005, at 20:56:43
> I have to say it again, because this has happened a few times now. I just can't imagine how crappy it would feel to have my name hauled up on admin inviting people to offer suggestions on how to deal with me. YUCK!
I couldn't do anything at the time because I was blocked, but I felt put down when I read this.
I had to screw up a lot of courage to bring up a topic that has upset me for quite a while now. Can you imagine how bad it felt to be berated (I'm not pointing at any particular poster here) for even bringing it up?
FWIW, one of the published topics of this board is "dealing with particular posters." I did a poor job of what I was trying to do, and for that I was properly punished by the moderator. Now I'm wondering if I'm an outsider. It feels like high school all over again.
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