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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 17:58:57
Hi, everyone,
I'm thinking about writing up something about sar's suicide. Here are the "slides" for a talk I just gave:
http://www.dr-bob.org/talks/mednet03
Any questions, comments, or suggestions? Feel free to post them here (in which case I might use them) or to email me. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by noa on December 16, 2003, at 19:37:19
In reply to A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 17:58:57
Interesting.
I thought there should be more in there about the process of figuring out how to verify the credibility of the person who informed us and that the announcement was true.
Also, it would be good to include more excerpts from posts about recent controversial suicidal claims (for want of a better word) and their effect on people because of SAR's death.
I think the guilt feelings factor is coming up for me now as I remember SAR and the news of her death, because I felt that she did post reports of suicidal feelings that came and went and this brings up the question of how can we know? She would post about a suicide attempt one moment and then be joking and cheerful the next.
Also, there were her reports of some behaviors that put herself seriously in harm's way. I remember feeling so worried about some of the choices she made and the risks she took. And I guess somehow I felt guilty because she was doing these potentially self-destructive things that maybe should have signalled an alarm. Maybe I feel guilty because at the time, I remember being so scared for her when she talked about her close calls (with suicide, with other dangers) and my scared feelings may have also made me feel angry at her for putting herself at risk, because I liked her and wanted to be able to help her be safer, but couldn't and so my fear led to anger and then when she committed suicide, maybe I felt guilty because of my anger.
I still have a hard time reading posts that come close to the edge. It is still painful for me.
Posted by justyourlaugh on December 16, 2003, at 22:58:13
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by noa on December 16, 2003, at 19:37:19
i worry about how many lives this illness takes..
i worry about passing this forward
i worry sar has no "after"
i worry none of us will
....
Posted by tabitha on December 16, 2003, at 23:18:08
In reply to A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 17:58:57
Kind of makes me squirm. An uncomfortable reminder that we're all research subjects and our words can be used in Bob's publications. I know we signed the release form and all, but somehow it's disturbing. I recognize some of the posts from people who aren't here anymore, who left with bad feelings about the site. Can't help thinking they would not want their words used, even though they clicked the permission button during the registration.
Honestly it seems tacky and exploitative seeing sar's death turned into a case study. Count me as creeped out.
Posted by zenhussy on December 16, 2003, at 23:43:57
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by tabitha on December 16, 2003, at 23:18:08
I have to agree with Tabitha's words regarding the subject.
I'd also like to add that even though two of the eight examples of "How should I respond to a poster who's suicidal?" in the FAQ (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#suicidal) are my posts I would not want them used in anything published.
Yes I know I've signed consent. I'm giving you the feedback you requested.
I don't mind my words being used as they are on this site as I choose to post here. But to 'whore out' my words in this proposed fashion just makes me feel used. I don't think that this project so long after sar's suicide is even touchable at this point. Count me out please.
I know one poster in particular who would not want their words used in any way, shape or form of this proposed project. I will be e-mailing this former poster at once.
Posted by shar on December 17, 2003, at 0:17:11
In reply to A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 17:58:57
Well, I'm one of the more consistently suicidal posters here, and haven't made too many bones about being ready to go. I don't want to offend or appear callous about her suicide at all, but I guess when Sar was gone, I could relate to the 'up side' of it. That she was out of pain and free at last:
"For Sar, I believe she is undoubtedly in a place of peace and out of the terrible pain of living. I will remember her warmly as part of the family here."
There were also people who did personal things, like becoming vegetarian that bespoke their caring for her.
And, quite a few existential discussions about where we go. I'm planning on doggie heaven, myself.
Granted, I only saw the headers, but those stood out for me.
Can you provide a link to the memorial page?
Shar
Posted by gabbix2 on December 17, 2003, at 14:13:25
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by shar on December 17, 2003, at 0:17:11
Ditto Zenhussy and Tabitha, and this in no way is due to my current negative feelings about how the people on the board have been treated.
I only arrived a litle after Sar had committed suicide, I kept hearing about her though. I was even a bit cynical thinking 'well people are only just saying all those sweet things about her now"
I can't remember when it was that I actually looked through the archives and read everything I could about her. I saw that she truly was "so many things"
Her posts did sparkle, and the poems written about her made me cry.
God, I don't usually even like poetry that much.The slides were so cold. It felt like a butterfly collection, pinned under glass.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 17, 2003, at 15:22:13
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by gabbix2 on December 17, 2003, at 14:13:25
Thing is, all we see here are the slides, and we don't hear what Dr Bob is actually saying.
Having given a couple of prsentations to groups of menta; health professionals, you really do just need to stick to the facts, and not emotionalise things.
If this was a presentation to us, as in PB'ers, then I would expect it to be alot softer and fluffier.. but as its to fellow proffesionals, I guess it needs to be kept to just facts and figures if that makes sense.
One feleing I have here, is that atleast Dr Bob is supporting the fcat that on-line communities do work and help.. we've all come across pdocs etc that dismiss the support we receive at places like this.. and I'm all for better understanding of it.
I guess if I posed the slides that I have used for some presentations, people would find them cold.. BUt I try and add the warmth with what I am actually saying to go along with the slides that give the points that need to be read.
I hope that I have shown another side of the problem.. and given people something to ponder on!
Nikki xx
Posted by gabbix2 on December 17, 2003, at 16:19:54
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by NikkiT2 on December 17, 2003, at 15:22:13
Thats a good point, I think it says a lot that we were asked for our feed back as well.
Posted by slinky on December 18, 2003, at 5:22:12
In reply to A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 17:58:57
> Hi, everyone,
>
> I'm thinking about writing up something about sar's suicide. Here are the "slides" for a talk I just gave:Looks like you've already done it.
Anyway I doubt an afterlife- but I can imagine her at the back with beer in hand watching..thinking move on , why not concentrate on the living..and have more FUN!
Posted by Bobby on December 18, 2003, at 7:28:14
In reply to A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 17:58:57
good or bad.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 18, 2003, at 19:49:42
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by NikkiT2 on December 17, 2003, at 15:22:13
> Interesting.
>
> I thought there should be more in there about the process of figuring out how to verify the credibility of the person who informed us and that the announcement was true.Good point. In this case, however, there was independent confirmation...
> Also, it would be good to include more excerpts from posts about recent controversial suicidal claims (for want of a better word) and their effect on people because of SAR's death.
Also a good point, that's another effect... I'll have to search for those URLs...
> I think the guilt feelings factor is coming up for me now...
>
> I still have a hard time reading posts that come close to the edge. It is still painful for me.
>
> noaI'm sorry it's still painful... Old posts of hers? Or posts by others close to the edge?
--
> Kind of makes me squirm. An uncomfortable reminder that we're all research subjects and our words can be used in Bob's publications. I know we signed the release form and all, but somehow it's disturbing.
I can see that. Maybe the focus here is so much on support that it can be disorienting -- or even feel like a violation -- when the site is used for other purposes?
> I recognize some of the posts from people who aren't here anymore, who left with bad feelings about the site. Can't help thinking they would not want their words used, even though they clicked the permission button during the registration.
Yes, that's an issue...
> Honestly it seems tacky and exploitative seeing sar's death turned into a case study. Count me as creeped out.
>
> tabithaWhat about seeing it, as Nikki suggested, as a way to try to increase awareness and understanding of online communities?
--
> Can you provide a link to the memorial page?
>
> SharWhere? Here?
Bob
Posted by zenhussy on December 18, 2003, at 20:06:34
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 18, 2003, at 19:49:42
Dr. Bob,
Now that sar has passed on what becomes of her writings? Her family might not be happy to hear of published studies regarding their daughter's or sister's or cousin's suicide.
The ethics here seem clear when one looks at them from a perspective of what is right and what is wrong. However as a researcher you do not approach things from those angles.
As a moral courtesy to the posters who personally knew sar and those that knew her through the board would you please contact her family with your presentation so that they know what is being done with her words years after her death? And if that is not something that you will do then please explain why here on the board so that we all know what is going on.
The sense of sar's death being administratively mishandled still stings when I think back to that time or reread posts from that period.
zenhussy
Posted by jay on December 18, 2003, at 20:15:44
In reply to A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 17:58:57
Dr. Bob..
A few other comments that I think should be included. One is the limitations of the online group. More-or-less, who the group "doesn't" represent, as those living in poverty, homeless, or otherwise don't have any and/or easy access to the internet, and of course the site. Also, in my experience working in a group home, many people with developmental disabilities, brain injuries, and such similar situations usually don't have the skills or even access to a group like this one. Your research may be of direct benefit to social workers and counsellors to kick down the barriers to this type of website. (I've got a grant and a make-work project in mind..;-)
I guess what I am pointing out is sort of like the limitations of Freud's research, since he treated mostly white, upper-class European women. This other question is pretty wide in scope, but are there pre-cautions you have to take in running the site, whatever they may be, to prevent an influence on someone committing suicide?And...do you ever worry about interference in the therapeutic progress of site members? You might want to include examples of possible positive and negatives, but I recall you also said that the site is not necessarily therapeutic in it's goals.
Good luck with your presentation.
Jay
Posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 21:07:26
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 18, 2003, at 19:49:42
> > Kind of makes me squirm. An uncomfortable reminder that we're all research subjects and our words can be used in Bob's publications. I know we signed the release form and all, but somehow it's disturbing.
>
> I can see that. Maybe the focus here is so much on support that it can be disorienting -- or even feel like a violation -- when the site is used for other purposes?Yup, I think you've captured what I was feeling. It also makes me wonder if you care about us at all, or just see us as subjects. I hope it's at least a little of both.
>
> > I recognize some of the posts from people who aren't here anymore, who left with bad feelings about the site. Can't help thinking they would not want their words used, even though they clicked the permission button during the registration.
>
> Yes, that's an issue...It's good to hear you consider it an issue, whether you do anything about it or not.
>
> > Honestly it seems tacky and exploitative seeing sar's death turned into a case study. Count me as creeped out.
> >
> > tabitha
>
> What about seeing it, as Nikki suggested, as a way to try to increase awareness and understanding of online communities?
I suppose I could try that, but what's wrong with also seeing it as a little disturbing and violating to us 'subjects'? I'm not going to crusade to stop your publication or anything. ... OK, maybe calling it 'tacky and exploitative' was a bit extreme, I'll give you that.I wonder what sar would want.
Posted by jay on December 18, 2003, at 22:22:59
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group » Dr. Bob, posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 21:07:26
>
> >
> > > Honestly it seems tacky and exploitative seeing sar's death turned into a case study. Count me as creeped out.
> > >I am taking a fourth year course with readings specifically on Suicide, and there is nothing 'tacky' about it. There are many, many important lessons we can learn from these tragedies. Case studies and what Dr. Bob is doing helps us to better understand suicide, and maybe find ways to reduce it. I've got a couple of texts of over 1,000 pages each devoted to the topic, and hopefully one day Dr. Bob's research will be included in one of those. Have you not heard of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, and her practice specialization in death and dying, which has gone on to progress and evolve the wonderful hospice concept? Death, suicidal or accidental, or just by nature, is quite an engaging topic. It is the fate of every soul. "We start dying the moment we are born."
Jay
Posted by jay on December 18, 2003, at 22:27:08
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group » Dr. Bob, posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 21:07:26
And..just to add...one of KUBLER-ROSS' most famous quotes is: "There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us to learn from" She was initially trained as an M.D. and is a psychiatrist.
Posted by tabitha on December 18, 2003, at 23:19:41
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group » tabitha, posted by jay on December 18, 2003, at 22:22:59
Jay, I agree with you that studying death and suicide is a valid thing to do. I already admitted my choice of words was too harsh. It just came from my emotional reaction to seeing sar's death used as a case study. If I didn't know sar's writings or wasn't a part of this community/research project, I wouldn't have that reaction at all. I was just uncomfortable seeing it. That's how I feel and I'm sticking with it.
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 0:37:15
In reply to Add to above^^^^^ » tabitha, posted by jay on December 18, 2003, at 22:27:08
I realize Tabitha reworded what she originally said, that the presentation was "Tacky and Exploitive" Even if she had not I don't agree that a definitive statement such as
"There is nothing tacky about it" can be legitimized with the argument that this type of thing has been done before, and people with many letters after their names have been doing it". Harmful things have been done by that type of thinking.
Anyone reading Tabitha's posts can tell she is an intelligent woman, I'm sure she's well aware of what has been learned by reading books.
Dr. Bob was asking about his particular
presentation, it has specific qualities these were the qualities of which she made her asessment; much more than a matter of suicide and death.Nowhere did Dr Bob ask an opinion of the writings of Dr. Kubler Ross, if he had I'm sure the asessment would have been quite different.
Posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 0:42:29
In reply to A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 17:58:57
I had this bizarre reaction to seeing the slides. I thought that the letters for people's names wasn't much of a disguise. You name your site, I'm sure. You give the dates. Anyone could easily see who sar was. And then I slapped myself aside my head. It's all open here on the internet anyway. Countless new people have heard references to sar and looked up the archives. What you're doing isn't more public than it already is. It can't be more public than it already is.
It still feels odd to see it presented so clinically though. It was so real here and it doesn't seem real in the slides. Maybe you should include the post you made, where you quoted a post of sar's and told how it made you laugh. I'm working from memory here, so forgive me if my facts aren't quite right. It really impressed me at the time though. As if you were sharing in the grief. As if you saw us as people. As if maybe you cared a bit. It was much more personal than the quote from yourself that you did use.
I'm not sure I like the concept of using the tragedy of sar's death, not that *that* matters on whit. :) Nor, I suppose, is it unprecedented, as the copious post 9/11 research shows.
Have you done any research comparing Babble to other online communities? I often wonder how much applicability your research has to the online community world in general. I've always thought that Babble is Babble for better or worse (depending on your viewpoint) because you are who you are. And that because of that, in many ways from the content of our posts to the community culture to our self selection as posters, any research you do here might not be able to be meaningfully generalized. Have you factored that in?
Posted by judy1 on December 19, 2003, at 10:58:23
In reply to A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 17:58:57
The intellectual side of me appreciates what you did, addressed a critical mental health issue and shared how we as an on-line community support each other through this and other crises. Emotionally I still feel raw, perhaps because I overidentified with Sar's suicide and this thread triggered those feelings. I don't feel betrayed in the least that you use this forum to educate others, perhaps because I benefit so much also. I hope your presentation was well-received.
sincerely, judy
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 15:07:56
In reply to Add to above^^^^^ » tabitha, posted by jay on December 18, 2003, at 22:27:08
> And..just to add...one of KUBLER-ROSS' most famous quotes is: "There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us to learn from"
Child abuse? Suicide? Torture? Genocide
Now there is woman who could have learned the value of an "I" statement
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 19, 2003, at 19:20:41
In reply to Re: Add to above^^^^^ » jay, posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 15:07:56
> As a moral courtesy to the posters who personally knew sar and those that knew her through the board would you please contact her family with your presentation so that they know what is being done with her words years after her death?
>
> zenhussyI think my position will be that she gave me permission to use her words in this way. Others are free to contact them if they think that's the right thing to do...
--
> A few other comments that I think should be included. One is ... who the group "doesn't" represent
Yes, that's a good point, conclusions about this group can't necessarily be generalized.
> are there pre-cautions you have to take in running the site, whatever they may be, to prevent an influence on someone committing suicide?And...do you ever worry about interference in the therapeutic progress of site members?
>
> JayIn general? Or as a result of this suicide?
--
> It also makes me wonder if you care about us at all, or just see us as subjects. I hope it's at least a little of both.
Of course I care about you! And I also care about others who might potentially be helped by a better understanding of online communities...
> > > Honestly it seems tacky and exploitative seeing sar's death turned into a case study. Count me as creeped out.
> >
> > What about seeing it, as Nikki suggested, as a way to try to increase awareness and understanding of online communities?
>
> what's wrong with also seeing it as a little disturbing and violating to us 'subjects'?Nothing at all, it's not either-or.
> I wonder what sar would want.
>
> tabithaI've wondered that, too. It was also a question that came up regarding posting her name...
--
> It still feels odd to see it presented so clinically though. It was so real here and it doesn't seem real in the slides. Maybe you should include the post you made, where you quoted a post of sar's and told how it made you laugh.
I'd like to include more. Which I think would make it feel more real. But people don't give you as much time as you want to talk, or as many pages as you want to write. But everything's here for those who want more...
> Have you done any research comparing Babble to other online communities?
I've looked at that a little. Which was how I got into readability:
http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/extras.pl
> I often wonder how much applicability your research has to the online community world in general. I've always thought that Babble is Babble for better or worse (depending on your viewpoint) because you are who you are. And that because of that, in many ways from the content of our posts to the community culture to our self selection as posters, any research you do here might not be able to be meaningfully generalized. Have you factored that in?
>
> DinahThat's a great question. It would be interesting to look at variables like content and culture. The question would be how to assess that...
Also, this group shows what's possible even if it's not necessarily generalizable...
--
> > one of KUBLER-ROSS' most famous quotes is: "There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us to learn from"
>
> Child abuse? Suicide? Torture? Genocide
> Now there is woman who could have learned the value of an "I" statementLet's keep it administrative here, OK? Thanks. :-)
Bob
Posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 20:12:30
In reply to Re: A Suicide in an Online Peer Support Group, posted by Dr. Bob on December 19, 2003, at 19:20:41
> > It also makes me wonder if you care about us at all, or just see us as subjects. I hope it's at least a little of both.
>
> Of course I care about you! And I also care about others who might potentially be helped by a better understanding of online communities...-wiping tear from eye- Wow, I wonder if I'm the only one surprised you'd tell us this?? Thanks. It feels good to hear.
Posted by shar on December 19, 2003, at 23:25:31
In reply to Re: Hey everyone, Bob Cares!, posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 20:12:30
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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