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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 38 to 62 of 108. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2003, at 7:11:46
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude', posted by Elle2021 on November 20, 2003, at 21:05:58
> I wish that people would be able to understand the depth of pain that certain people are capable of feeling. This is why some people pull stunts like faking a suicide.
I'd like to separate two issues from what you are saying.
> Being Borderline, I feel like I have more insight into that type of thing. When I am happy I literally CAN'T remember being sad and when I am sad I can't remember what happy feels like. Other people can use memories of happy events to pull themselves out of depression or unhappy feelings. I can't because I can't remember from time to time what they felt like.
Your description of what it is like to have BPD is moving, and I understand the disorder rather well, having dated not one, but two, borderline women. It's not an easy thing to deal with, nor can rational thought control it.
> I think that is what has happened here with Kristin. She needs our support and I will never be in favour of permanently banning her or anyone else who is desperate enough to fake a suicide.
> ElleThe separate issue is whether she needs *our* support. Her need for support is not in question.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:17:31
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Elle2021, posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2003, at 7:11:46
> It's not an easy thing to deal with, nor can rational thought control it.
It isn't easy to control, and it certainly isn't easy to apply rational thought during a crisis. But go easy on us, Lar. The many recovering people with borderline personality disorder right here on the board, or those of us who identify with the disorder but make different choices on the behaviors, shows that the outlook is not so grim. But this belongs on Psychological Babble I suppose. :) (Just don't want you to get in any trouble with outraged posters, Lar.)
>
> The separate issue is whether she needs *our* support. Her need for support is not in question.
>
> Lar
>Elle, while I agree with you completely about BPD, I have to agree with Lar that this board isn't beneficial for everyone. While the format of Dr. Bob's adverse event report is amusing, its point is well taken. Without commenting on Kristen in particular, there are limitations and frustrations and potential for transference inherent in this medium that can actually exacerbate illness in some people. Without the support of a therapist who is familiar with my participation on this board (and who is quite patient) I'm not sure I could participate here myself. So I think that maybe people aren't intending to be as punitive with the idea of blocks as it might seem.
I know that Dr. Bob is no longer doing research at this site, but perhaps he might wish to compile some case studies about the complex negative reactions to an online support community, and what it might mean.
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:18:16
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:17:31
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2003, at 8:26:23
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:17:31
> > It's not an easy thing to deal with, nor can rational thought control it.
>
> It isn't easy to control, and it certainly isn't easy to apply rational thought during a crisis. But go easy on us, Lar. The many recovering people with borderline personality disorder right here on the board, or those of us who identify with the disorder but make different choices on the behaviors, shows that the outlook is not so grim. But this belongs on Psychological Babble I suppose. :) (Just don't want you to get in any trouble with outraged posters, Lar.)I didn't mean an absolute. Sorry.
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 21, 2003, at 8:26:26
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude', posted by Elle2021 on November 20, 2003, at 21:05:58
I'm also Borderline. I work ALOT in promoting BPD and educating people about the illness.
The one thing I strongly believe is everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions. Even if they are ill.
I have no idea if you were around during the previous problems, but if you were you would have seen how badly ALOT of people weere hurt.
Surely the good of the msasses must come before th good of one person??
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:32:50
In reply to Oops. Above for Lar and Elle (nm), posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:18:16
If we're talking specifics.
Or at least premature.
Unless P shows up again, the question won't come up. And if (s)he does, we can argue with Dr. Bob then.
As a dedicated procrastinator, I say let's put it off unless we're looking for a general policy change. The wonderful thing about procrastinating is that often the situation resolves itself before you get to it. (Doesn't it feel great to see those "mail by" dates on sweepstakes offers, and know you now get to toss them?)
Posted by stjames on November 21, 2003, at 10:31:28
In reply to Dr. Bob - - Re: ban for suicide postings??, posted by Elle2021 on November 20, 2003, at 23:41:37
> Is this post by stjames civil? I am feeling a bit offended.
> Elle
>Sorry, I don't think your are considering the rest of us, just because BPD has certain behaviors does not mean they are OK here.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2003, at 11:33:18
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - - Re: ban for suicide postings??, posted by stjames on November 21, 2003, at 10:31:28
I'm sorry if my comment over in alternative offended you in some way. It was light-hearted. I think I'm treated with more deference than I deserve.
Lar
Posted by mair on November 21, 2003, at 11:40:43
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » sb417, posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 1:05:49
" Actually, it isn't difficult to understand. I was on another board (very similar to this one) where people were contantly threatening suicide. I understand how it can wreak havoc."
Threatening suicide is one thing; pretending it's occurred is quite another. Both are awful, but the second is unconscionable. I've been here for a long time, off and on. There have been tons of posters, including me, who've discussed their suicidal feelings. Very few people have actually threatened to commit suicide, certainly not in any overt way.Mair
PS: Check out the archives. Kristen's first attempt to post news of her recent demise came after a period when her very overt threats caused an enormous amount of handwringing on the part of a very anxious group of posters who went the next step of imploring Dr. Bob to notify local authorities to see if they could intervene.
>
Posted by shar on November 21, 2003, at 16:45:43
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Elle2021, posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2003, at 7:11:46
Good point, Lar. Tho' I know you prefer to eschew deference :), I think it is worth considering whether our support will help at all, if someone is poised at the edge of the abyss.
And, this comes from someone who has looked into the abyss.
Shar
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2003, at 17:39:59
In reply to ban for suicide postings??, posted by stjames on November 20, 2003, at 22:53:30
> NOTE TO ALL BORDERLINERS:
>
> It hurts us when you play the game of suicide.
> Try to remember this.Please don't jump to conclusions (in this case, that anyone's playing a game) about others, thanks.
Bob
Posted by stjames on November 21, 2003, at 17:53:38
In reply to ban for suicide postings??, posted by stjames on November 20, 2003, at 22:53:30
NOTE TO ALL BORDERLINERS:It hurts us when you fake suicides.
Try to remember this.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2003, at 18:21:54
In reply to Re: ban for suicide postings??, posted by stjames on November 21, 2003, at 17:53:38
Posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:39:48
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - - Re: ban for suicide postings??, posted by stjames on November 21, 2003, at 10:31:28
> Sorry, I don't think your are considering the rest of us, just because BPD has certain behaviors does not mean they are OK here.
I accept your apology. I did not, however, say that the behaviours we're okay. I recognize fully that they are inappropriate. I am considering the rest of you, but also Kristin and what she may need. I think it is a good idea to keep in mind that we are not obligated to read and respond to each and every post that comes our way. If I see a post that looks tiggering or upsetting, I don't read it. I have done it before, I will continue to do it. God bless you.
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:43:06
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Elle2021, posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2003, at 7:11:46
> Your description of what it is like to have BPD is moving...
Moving, I don't think so. Realistic, definitely.
If Kristin needs *my* support on this board, I will continue to offer it to her. If other posters decide not to respond to her, then that is their personal decision.
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:48:39
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:17:31
No, this board certainly isn't beneficial to everyone. However, it must be of some benefit to Kristin as she keeps coming back. Like I said in another post, if I find something triggering in a post I don't finish reading it. I will continue to offer my support to Kristin (should she return). If others choose not to, then I respect that decision. I know that if certain people on another board had not supported me, I would have not made the progess that I have made today, which I am proud of. God bless you Dinah! :)
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:52:07
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Elle2021, posted by NikkiT2 on November 21, 2003, at 8:26:26
> The one thing I strongly believe is everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions. Even if they are ill.
Sometimes ill people can't take responsibility for their actions, even when we wish they could.
> I have no idea if you were around during the previous problems, but if you were you would have seen how badly ALOT of people weere hurt.
I read the posts, I saw how it hurt a lot of people. I have been on other site where similar things have occurred.
> Surely the good of the msasses must come before th good of one person??I agree, but this is an open board, free to everyone. The final decision will be up to Dr. Bob.
Elle
Posted by shar on November 21, 2003, at 22:40:42
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » NikkiT2, posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:52:07
you must be the angels among us.
While I would be more than happy to engage K in dialogue that might help her, or help her get help, I suffer, myself, too much, to give myself over to those who would do things that might hurt others without cause.
Bless you all.....if I only had the energy I might be able to help...if it turned out K wanted help, that is an option, if I have the energy.
Shar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:01:27
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Larry Hoover, posted by shar on November 21, 2003, at 16:45:43
> Good point, Lar. Tho' I know you prefer to eschew deference :),
Not totally.....
> I think it is worth considering whether our support will help at all, if someone is poised at the edge of the abyss.
Indeed. I cannot not care, and I cannot fail to consider how I might offer support. What I also cannot do is apply those same considerations to false claims. The problem for me is, the two prior statements always apply. The latter can only be applied retroactively, and imperfectly.
> And, this comes from someone who has looked into the abyss.
>
> SharI'm sorry you've been to that place. I know it well. Given that, and the reasonable presumption that there are numerous such individuals on these boards, the vulnerability to deception is magnified dramatically.
My concerns focus on the conflict between the characteristics of one disorder, and those of another. How is it that I am expected to accomodate the behaviour associated with one type of mental illness (borderline personality disorder) while there is no apparent consideration of the impact on those having experienced suicidal ideation, or of those who have experienced bereavment via suicide? Just as your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose, harm is a pretty good indicator (not perfect, but pretty good) that there has been a breach of someone's rights. It is reasonable, IMHO, to then take steps to minimize or prevent a reoccurrence.
Lar
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 22, 2003, at 8:06:54
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » shar, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:01:27
Can we not turn this into a post about BPD. I work darn hard to try and remove the stigma associated with BPD. Its a nasty label to be given, as it comes with such connotations, and people have pre-conceived ideas about how you are going to behave because of it.
I'm BPD, and have never acted in these ways. Yes, people do, but its not only people with BPD. And Kristen never claimed to have BPD (though the signs are there, it could be any number of other things).
So please leave BPD out of this. How are proffesionals meant to take us seriously if they read peoples peers talking like this.
Nikki
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 8:24:12
In reply to BPD, posted by NikkiT2 on November 22, 2003, at 8:06:54
> Can we not turn this into a post about BPD. I work darn hard to try and remove the stigma associated with BPD. Its a nasty label to be given, as it comes with such connotations, and people have pre-conceived ideas about how you are going to behave because of it.
I'm sorry, Nikki. I understand the stereotype is burdensome, and often unwarranted. But we use labels as a kind of short-hand. It saves a lot of words. I wasn't the one who first linked Kristen and BPD, but it is not inconsistent to link them. Another poster has asked for compassion *because* of the link with parasuicidal behaviour. It's a sharp sword, and it cuts both ways.
> I'm BPD, and have never acted in these ways. Yes, people do, but its not only people with BPD. And Kristen never claimed to have BPD (though the signs are there, it could be any number of other things).
Just trying to save words, honestly. And I'm sorry, honestly.
> So please leave BPD out of this. How are proffesionals meant to take us seriously if they read peoples peers talking like this.
>
> NikkiYou lost me.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 10:12:33
In reply to BPD, posted by NikkiT2 on November 22, 2003, at 8:06:54
That's what I was trying to say, Nikki. A label might be useful to understand what someont is feeling. But it shouldn't be used to lump everyone with that label together. There are lots of people with Borderline Personality Disorder on these boards, a lot of recovering people with BPD, and a lot of people like me who've never been diagnosed but certainly have a lot of the internal characteristics, who work really really hard to not let our internal pain cause pain to others.
It might lead me to have compassion, but I would never ever extend my expectations of behavior to an entire group of people.
(Lar, you've said you have had two people with BPD in your life, and that might influence your views. But I could name on this board a number of people who have identified themselves as having or having had BPD who are consistently concerned for the feelings of others and are consistently helpful and supportive. Let's not make it into an us vs. them? And I wouldn't even be sure which side of the stadium to sit on. So let's not do that?)
Posted by jay on November 22, 2003, at 10:58:05
In reply to 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by ace on November 18, 2003, at 20:27:13
I think there is one thing we have to remember here: the majority of us (especially 'regulars') have had our share of both 'pbc's and blocks. We don't want to develop a "mob rules" mentality, trying to hoist year-long blocks on people who likely have had blocks just as long as many of us have had. The real bottom line is, this is Dr. Bob's board, and he will determine what is and what isn't appropriate. I tried an experiment in 'democracy' on another board, and it didn't work out, period. (Besides me getting flack from many for the event.) No single one of us are absolute, innocent 'angels' when it comes to most things on this board, so let's try to keep it's supportive nature in mind.Just my .02 cents
Jay
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 11:45:08
In reply to Re: BPD, posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 10:12:33
> That's what I was trying to say, Nikki. A label might be useful to understand what someont is feeling. But it shouldn't be used to lump everyone with that label together. There are lots of people with Borderline Personality Disorder on these boards, a lot of recovering people with BPD, and a lot of people like me who've never been diagnosed but certainly have a lot of the internal characteristics, who work really really hard to not let our internal pain cause pain to others.
Ok. My reference was ill advised. I know you know you're not your label. I know you know that a diagnosis is not predictive of behaviour. I hope you know I know that, too.
Are my comments still valid, without any reference to diagnosis?
> It might lead me to have compassion, but I would never ever extend my expectations of behavior to an entire group of people.
Nor did I intend my reference to one behaviour associated with a particular diagnostic category to generalize to all people diagnosed as such.
> (Lar, you've said you have had two people with BPD in your life, and that might influence your views.I am sure it does. Both displayed parasuicide.
> But I could name on this board a number of people who have identified themselves as having or having had BPD who are consistently concerned for the feelings of others and are consistently helpful and supportive. Let's not make it into an us vs. them?
I never meant it to be one.
> And I wouldn't even be sure which side of the stadium to sit on. So let's not do that?)
Ok.
Need we extend our empathy to those practising parasuicidal threats and false reporting, and fail to extend empathy to those who cannot help but bear witness to it?
Lar
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 12:52:24
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 11:45:08
>
> Need we extend our empathy to those practising parasuicidal threats and false reporting, and fail to extend empathy to those who cannot help but bear witness to it?
>
> LarThanks, Lar. And certainly not. Contrary to what it may seem from my posts, I actually fall in empathy towards the side of those harmed by false reporting. Parasuicidal threats I'm more iffy about. I know there are those who are angry at people who express suicidal intent here on the board, but I'm not one of them. Expressions of suicidal intent are frequently quite sincere, and I would hate to ban them from the boards. I even hate to see them discouraged by the anger that sometimes results from them. I know I find myself censoring my musings on the matter. False reporting, by definition, would be less sincere. And Dr. Bob says they are a civility violation, and I'm glad of that.
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