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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 108. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on November 18, 2003, at 20:27:13
If we find someone has indeed faked a suicide is a 4 or 5 year ban adequate?
I feel it's a very hurtful thing to do...
Posted by Elle2021 on November 19, 2003, at 4:11:38
In reply to 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by ace on November 18, 2003, at 20:27:13
> If we find someone has indeed faked a suicide is a 4 or 5 year ban adequate?
>
> I feel it's a very hurtful thing to do...It is hurtful, but this is a hard one to call. People who fake suicide are in need of serious medical attention. IF they seek that attention and get things together enough to NOT fake suicides anymore, then don't you think they should be able to find support here once again? There is always a chance of re-offending.
Even if they are faking suicides, doesn't this show how much support they need? Banning them could make things worse. I have a lot of sympathy for these types of people, even though they sometimes frustrate me (along with everyone else). I try to be supportive to all the people here. I also SKIP over posts that I find "triggering" or upsetting. I do not read them.
I understand your frustration, especially since whats been happening recently on this board. God bless you.
Elle
Posted by stjames on November 19, 2003, at 4:39:00
In reply to 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by ace on November 18, 2003, at 20:27:13
I know it all hurts, but telling which fake suicide
is **just** a trick or part of a illness and a very sick person, is hard. Lots of fake suicides are common in some disorders.Many lists ban suicide postings,
where is is OK to talk about having the thoughts
but not actual threats of harming onself, ect. I like this method. "I am bothered by thoughts of
killing myself" is OK but "I took the xxxx"
is not.In the case at hand, yes I think this/these
person(s) should receive some duration of
block.
Posted by Dinah on November 19, 2003, at 9:15:38
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings?? » ace, posted by Elle2021 on November 19, 2003, at 4:11:38
Elle, I tend to agree with you in a lot of ways. For one thing, I remember my own suicide threats from my teens, and how they were really trying to convey something completely different than a desire to commit suicide. However poorly they succeeded.
I also agree in theory with Linehan about suicidal gestures. That they are the only way some people have to try to convey the depth of their pain, and try to get the help they need. There is a chapter in the book "The Mummy at the Dining Room Table" entitled "The Woman Who Hanged Herself to Check her Husband's Response Time". The therapist was initially appalled, but then tried to understand the immense pain that must be behind such an action.
All that being said, however, there is also the toll to the community to be considered (which I see from your post that you also recognize). And also.... Babble is not always the least stressful place on earth. Even under the best of circumstances there are eruptions and frustrations. With Dr. Bob, with other posters. We can try to pass over what would bother us, but still, this can be a stressful place. For a while there it was a main topic in therapy for me. And as an aside, I have the most immense respect for those Babblers who have been able to tolerate being here for a long time without ever acting out their frustrations or leaving. (I don't count myself one of them, so I can say that. I've acted out quite embarassingly at times.)
In addition, this place can't give the level of support that some people need. It's just the nature of the board. It isn't real time, people have their own ups and downs that affect their posting patterns. The internet has limitations that allow for misunderstandings and projection.
As Dr. Bob has frequently admitted, this place isn't and can't be right for everyone.
I won't make any assumptions about who wrote the "P" post, so I don't know if it's true in this case. But if this *is* a second faked suicide (which I am in no way saying it is), I think Dr. Bob should look long and hard whether blocking wouldn't be in the poster's best interest (perhaps with input from the poster's therapeutic support team), quite aside from the effects on the rest of the community which he should also, of course, consider.
Just a meandering thought, related to the nature of this board in general, and making no specific comments on something that we have not yet received confirmation of.
Posted by Susan J on November 19, 2003, at 10:47:09
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings?? » ace, posted by Elle2021 on November 19, 2003, at 4:11:38
>>Even if they are faking suicides, doesn't this show how much support they need? Banning them could make things worse.
<<I agree. They need support. But I don't think this is the right place for proper support for those folks.
Sometimes the type of support a person seeks is dysfunctional in itself. The person might feel *better* getting inflamatory responses, even negative attention.
And in the overall scheme of things, if the support given here is not helpful to that person, and the threads cause pain and annoyance to other posters, is it really wise to permit that type of behavior to go on here?
In any event, I really admire your ability to *not* read threads that are bothersome to you. I don't have that type of self-control.
Susan
Posted by sb417 on November 19, 2003, at 11:00:34
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by Dinah on November 19, 2003, at 9:15:38
I wonder whether "KrissyP/Gal/whatever-her- current-name-is" even discusses with her psychiatrist and treatment team how she behaves on Psychobabble.
What I find most disturbing is her going to another message board to express her glee at succeeding in fooling us, and her contempt for those of us who are gullible enough to believe her.
Dr. Bob urges those in crisis to get help in person. "KrissyP/Gal/other names" has mentioned on many occasions that she has a treatment team. She has also said that she takes several medications, so presumably she has a psychiatrist who is prescribing those medications. Her psychiatrist and treatment team are the ones who should be dealing with her problems; not us. If her treatment team and psychiatrist are not available to her, then she should go to the Emergency Room. There isn't anyone on Psychobabble who is equipped to deal with her problems. Dr. Bob does not function as our doctor here. There are very few qualified professionals on this board, and even if there are a few trained mental health care workers posting here, it would be inappropriate, ill-advised, unethical and probably illegal to attempt to "treat" a PB poster over the Internet.
As for the 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings, I think that is probably not long enough.
Posted by Dinah on November 19, 2003, at 11:44:40
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings?? » Dinah, posted by sb417 on November 19, 2003, at 11:00:34
To be absolutely and totally fair, as I recall, the post on the other board was aimed at Dr. Bob, not fellow posters. She appeared to be angry at being blocked. But I'm not all that familiar with what happened on the other board, so I'm not certain.
I agree that, if the current post is a repeat of the last, that her treatment team will hopefully be aware of what's going on and take full responsibility for her wellbeing.
Posted by mair on November 19, 2003, at 13:43:38
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings?? » sb417, posted by Dinah on November 19, 2003, at 11:44:40
I'm not so concerned with false threats, although they're bad enough. What I find so egregious is Kristen posting as someone who knows Kristen. Not only does that seem particularly manipulative, but also opens us all up to having someone do the same thing with any one of us. Sure, this is something anyone "can" do, but in reality in several years on this board, I don't remember anyone else ever trying it.
Everyone "loses" it to some degree at some point. However, I'm particularly bothered by behavior that seems designed to throw people into some emotional turmoil. The vast majority of posters I think are very sincere in their attempts to be supportive to those in need. Using that support in such a manipulative way makes a mockery of what we try to do here.
Mair
Posted by lil' jimi on November 19, 2003, at 13:47:26
In reply to 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by ace on November 18, 2003, at 20:27:13
Ace,
no matter how far i may have to stick my tongue into my cheek ...
i will NEVER support the death penalty for fake suicide posts!
... too poetic~ jim
Posted by KellyD on November 19, 2003, at 14:09:54
In reply to re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings?? » ace, posted by lil' jimi on November 19, 2003, at 13:47:26
In my opinion, banning wouldn't matter. The current posting setup allows for all posters to be involved in a nasty game of "Where's Waldo?" (or insert any ID you care). Manipulation is a game, this is a public message board, and while I understand - I don't think it would quell the behavior.
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 19, 2003, at 14:12:56
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by Dinah on November 19, 2003, at 9:15:38
There is a world of difference between saying "I want to commit suicide or I have taken an overdose, help me" and "xxx has died"
I don't know if case at hand is a hoax. I would hope that if Dr Bob knows that it is not, he would let us know so we could move on from this.
But in the mean time, I simply cannot bring myself to post to anyone who's name I do not recognise.
I'm sorry to upset any newbies / name changers, but my motive here is to keep *me* safe.. and that is my personal priority.I doubt I will ever feel safe here again because of this entire episode. I feel cheated and used.
Nikki
Posted by Susan J on November 19, 2003, at 14:25:43
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by NikkiT2 on November 19, 2003, at 14:12:56
Nikki,
> I doubt I will ever feel safe here again because of this entire episode. I feel cheated and used.
><<I really don't have anything helpful to say. I just felt bad about your post. I completely understand what you are feeling and I wish I could say something to make you feel better/safer here. I swear, when these threads aren't being stirred up so horribly, this really *is* a supportive place to be, at least for me.
It makes me sad to think these types of incidents could possibly drive people like you away, because I value your posts.
I wish Dr. Bob could recognize that this whole situation is causing serious pain/anxiety/distrust and a whole host of other words that have negative connotations. And if he's capable of recognizing the destructiveness of this whole situation, I really wish he'd put the proper measures in place to prevent it from happening again.
We struggle so much in real life. I don't get why we have to struggle *here* to keep a safe, supportive environment. Moderator's job?
Do what's best for you. Keep yourself safe, and don't worry about not posting to newbies (including me who's new compared to you).
It breaks my heart that pain is being caused here. Take care of yourself,
Susan
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 19, 2003, at 14:50:47
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings?? » NikkiT2, posted by Susan J on November 19, 2003, at 14:25:43
Hi Susan,
Thanks for your post.. I'm not leaving.. I refuse to leave!!
And you're not a newbie to me!! By newbies.. I mean names that I have no idea who they are.. Names that are appearing since "the incident". You have earned my trust, and I have no doubt you are who you say you are.. Maybe its an instinct thing!! And my instincts are good where you are concerned!
I dunno.. maybe I'm being sensitive.. My sleep is seriously bad at the moment, and all those extra hours awake aren't good for my head.
But PB has given me some wonderful friends who I care about hugely.. I will *always* be thankful for that. They know who they are.. and I love them all enormously!
Nikki xx
Posted by Susan J on November 19, 2003, at 15:04:28
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings?? » Susan J, posted by NikkiT2 on November 19, 2003, at 14:50:47
Nikki,
>
> Thanks for your post.. I'm not leaving.. I refuse to leave!!
<<Cool!>
> Maybe its an instinct thing!! And my instincts are good where you are concerned!
<<Thanks, I appreciate it. I get paranoid sometimes. It's easy for me to write something and I swear I'm trying to be nothing but wellmeaning, and yet it can come across as a jibe or insult.>
> I dunno.. maybe I'm being sensitive.. My sleep is seriously bad at the moment, and all those extra hours awake aren't good for my head.
<<I don't think you are being sensitive. I think this whole thing is really disconcerting...This *incident* as you call it is messing with my head a bit, and I wasn't even involved the first time around, so there's no real pain or betrayal for me.It's just in such stark contrast to the purpose of these boards. It's hard for me to reconcile the fact nothing's being done about it. It rankles my sense of justice and fair play. But I'm weird like that,
Take care,
Susan
Posted by Dinah on November 19, 2003, at 16:33:41
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by Susan J on November 19, 2003, at 15:04:28
Given that his knowledge of what's going on is limited?
Posted by shar on November 19, 2003, at 18:43:07
In reply to Re: But what *can* Dr. Bob do?, posted by Dinah on November 19, 2003, at 16:33:41
I confess I have not read this whole thread.
What Dr. Bob *can* do is alert whomever he can via his knowledge of the signer-oners ISP, and which has been done before (for which I am grateful!).
Beyond that, he (Dr. Bob) is not responsible for saving people who may talk about suicide (which I have done, even recently), or make suicidal gestures.
I feel only sadness that this would be the only place one would have to turn (ie, not a therapist, or pdoc, or friend, or ER, or mental heatlh facility, etc.).
I hope I don't get a PBC for this! Someone might read it and feel bad.......
Shar
Posted by Liligoth on November 19, 2003, at 22:49:31
In reply to 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by ace on November 18, 2003, at 20:27:13
> If we find someone has indeed faked a suicide is a 4 or 5 year ban adequate?
>
> I feel it's a very hurtful thing to do...All I feel I can safely say on this is that 4 or 5 years pretty much equates to permanent in my view. I really dont know whether I agree with that. On the one hand I think anyone deserves a second chance & maybe someone who would fake suicide really needs to be a contributor to this board for their own healing.
But a line needs to be drawn somewhere.
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 20, 2003, at 5:24:54
In reply to Re: But what *can* Dr. Bob do?, posted by Dinah on November 19, 2003, at 16:33:41
he can check out the IP address of who ever posted the P message, and see whether its form the same ISP as Krissy for a start.. and try and find out if Krissy really is dead.
This is messing with my head too much. This not knowing anything
Nikki
Posted by zenn4 on November 20, 2003, at 8:25:33
In reply to Re: But what *can* Dr. Bob do? » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on November 20, 2003, at 5:24:54
I am one of those new posters so I run the risk of being shunned. Yet, I find I have something to say about this. Two "real" suicides occurred last week and blew my mind. They literally happened within hours of the other. Which is why I began posting instead of simply reading. While I think the person who has faked suicide is in need of real help, there has to be some kind of consequence for your behavior. Being this is a "virtual" community; many of us do not know the other posters personally and solely rely on information given and shared. If someone shatters that, there should be a consquence because the safety and harmony of the community is compromised. Just my opinion, but we are all suffering in some way or another. Some one who makes a choice to act out should have to deal with the consequence. Just as we deal with the consequence of reading a post from a "suicide". That has real consequences for many people reading this board. I do not feel like solely punitive action needs to be taken, but some action is required. On the other hand, (if I may point out), the poster who did this perhaps is getting the negative attention they are seeking and we, I, am perpetuating this by keeping it going. The only way to snuff out a fire is to deprive it of oxygen.
Posted by Dinah on November 20, 2003, at 9:40:52
In reply to Re: But what *can* Dr. Bob do? » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on November 20, 2003, at 5:24:54
I'm guessing from Dr. Bob's post that he did his best at doing that. If the IP matched that of a different known poster, there would have been consequences. So he's probably done all he can. Which is not to say that the IP address was Kristen's either. He apparently couldn't find out anything conclusive from it though. (And I'm just guessing here.)
So what can he do at this point?
I'm not altogether sure whether posing as someone else and announcing your own death is a violation of the civility rules. I hope that if it wasn't before, it is now. I'm almost positive posing as someone else and announcing someone else's death would be a violation.
So I'm reasonably sure, if P is identified and returns to the site, there will be consequences and they will be as public as any other admin actions are. If P doesn't return to the site, we'll probably be left not knowing what happened for sure.
I really didn't want to admit that I went this far, but I checked the online obits from the area I think she said she came from and saw nothing. But since my memory of her posts isn't all that strong, I could be wrong.
If anyone finds out she's alive, I'd hope they'd post as much to quell the worries of those who are concerned. I'm guessing it would be easier for them to do that if they weren't afraid it would bring up a firestorm of anger against Kristen. If I were a friend of Kristen's and in the position to know she was alive, I'd feel awfully torn between my concern for the posters here and my knowledge of the likely consequence of angry posts aimed at Kristen. At least I would, I'm not speaking for anyone, since to my knowledge, no one knows anything. Perhaps anyone who knows about Kristen's status could email Dr. Bob. And anyone who knows who P is could email Dr. Bob.
Otherwise, I think all we can do is assume Kristen is ok, and move on with the board. At least that's my, in this case, genuinely humble opinion. Because if I could think of something else, I'd be happy to drop my plan. So I guess I should say that all I've decided to do is to assume Kristen's ok, move on, and trust Dr. Bob to behave in a more open manner if the matter resurfaces.
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 20, 2003, at 10:13:41
In reply to Re: But what *can* Dr. Bob do? » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on November 20, 2003, at 9:40:52
Yeah..
I'm just not quite so rational right now.. insomnia is doing very bad things to me! But I have some of my dear zopiclone for tonight.. woo hoo.. I may get to party tomorrow after all!!
Maybe its just all the realisation that being 30 is just round the corner *lol* (its still a year away, and I am only joking!)Anyway, I guess I could email Dr Bob and ask him what he can tell me. I wouldn't even be angry to know it was all a hoax from Kristen now.. Just to know would be so nice.
Ho hum. Maybe tomorrow I will feel better (I better damned well feel better tomorrow actually!!)
Nikki xx
Posted by oeps7 on November 20, 2003, at 11:13:10
In reply to Re: But what *can* Dr. Bob do? » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on November 20, 2003, at 10:13:41
Hey 30 is not so bad. For women 30's and older are supposed to be the best times of your life. I myself am 34 and have found my 30s to be better than my 20s.
:) :) :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 20, 2003, at 12:24:08
In reply to Re: But what *can* Dr. Bob do? » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on November 20, 2003, at 9:40:52
> He apparently couldn't find out anything conclusive from it though. (And I'm just guessing here.)
Right, I couldn't find out anything conclusive.
> I'm not altogether sure whether posing as someone else and announcing your own death is a violation of the civility rules.
Yes, that would fall under posting "information ... that you know to be false".
> If anyone finds out she's alive, I'd hope they'd post as much to quell the worries of those who are concerned. I'm guessing it would be easier for them to do that if they weren't afraid it would bring up a firestorm of anger against Kristen.
Angry feelings, sure, but not uncivil posts, I hope...
> all I've decided to do is to assume Kristen's ok, move on, and trust Dr. Bob to behave in a more open manner if the matter resurfaces.
Sounds reasonable to me...
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2003, at 17:00:23
In reply to 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by ace on November 18, 2003, at 20:27:13
> If we find someone has indeed faked a suicide is a 4 or 5 year ban adequate?
>
> I feel it's a very hurtful thing to do...I've got one thing to say (after advocating a lifetime ban myself)....Dr. Bob has repeatedly said that these Babble boards are not for everyone. Then why need we include anyone who would do a thing like this?
Lar
Posted by shar on November 20, 2003, at 19:13:28
In reply to Re: 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings?? » ace, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2003, at 17:00:23
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