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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan J on October 30, 2003, at 8:57:21
Ya know, I think *anyone* can be offended by *anything.* Is there any reasonable objective standard applied?
"Good Lord, what madness rules in brainsick men."
Henry VI Part 1, 4. 1
Posted by Susan J on October 30, 2003, at 9:20:36
In reply to Civility, posted by Susan J on October 30, 2003, at 8:57:21
In fair Babble, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge brakes to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2003, at 16:33:46
In reply to Re: Civility, posted by Susan J on October 30, 2003, at 9:20:36
> Ya know, I think *anyone* can be offended by *anything.* Is there any reasonable objective standard applied?
No, it's my subjective judgment.
> In fair Babble, where we lay our scene,
> From ancient grudge brakes to new mutiny,
> Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please be sensitive to their feelings even if yours are hurt. Please don't mutiny even if your grudge is ancient?
Bob
Posted by Susan J on October 31, 2003, at 9:27:35
In reply to Re: Civility, posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2003, at 16:33:46
> In fair Babble, where we lay our scene,
> From ancient grudge brakes to new mutiny,
> Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please be sensitive to their feelings even if yours are hurt. Please don't mutiny even if your grudge is ancient?
Bob
This is a quote from Romeo and Juliet, where Shakespeare is commenting on how supposed civility and civil people do horribly uncivil things to one another, in the name of civility.I'm not disrespecting the views of others here and I don't think any *person* here is wrong. I *do* think there is something intrinsically wrong with the culture here that purports to be supportive and yet so obviously fosters such discontent...
And since *I* cannot articulate the problems that I see, I turned to Shakespeare....
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 11:29:17
In reply to Re: Civility, posted by Susan J on October 31, 2003, at 9:27:35
> > > In fair Babble, where we lay our scene,
> > > From ancient grudge brakes to new mutiny,
> > > Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
> >
> > Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please be sensitive to their feelings even if yours are hurt. Please don't mutiny even if your grudge is ancient?
>
> I'm not disrespecting the views of others here and I don't think any *person* here is wrong.Sorry, I think I wasn't clear, I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, I was just proposing a new line for the FAQ. :-)
> I *do* think there is something intrinsically wrong with the culture here that purports to be supportive and yet so obviously fosters such discontent...
You think that the culture here fosters discontent? Not that discontent is inevitable?
Bob
Posted by karen_kay on November 2, 2003, at 16:07:25
In reply to Re: Civility, posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 11:29:17
I think that discontent is enevitable when people get very wrapped up in eachother's lives. We are here to support each other and to add humor to what is yet a very touchy subject. Some people have more severe problems than others. What it seems is happening is that some are failing to realize that others have some very severe emotional problems. Those emotional problems may surface on Babble and even in our own lives, if we allow ourselves to get too close. The only problem is deciding where to draw the line. I hope I am by NO means opening up a healing(? is it) wound or pointing fingers because I am not involved or do not care to be with any of the situation. What I am saying is that what we need to realize is the whole point of this service, that I don't want to lose over something like this. We are here to help eachother. Obviously, we are at different stages of the healing process. And what happened in the past should possibly stay there. Maybe I shouldn't talk because I don't know exactly what happened, but I do know that we are here because we have problems. But I think it is only adding to the problem by exploiting and dwelling on it. And maybe we really shouldn't point a finger without examining our own old threads and rereading them carefully? I know that people have really been hurt in the past and that is unfortunate but the rest of us aren't here to do that. We just want to get better too. Sorry if this comes across as "preachy" but can't we chose to speak to whom we want (and I hope it doesn't exclude me now)and go from there? just my 2 cents, for what it is worth. Karen
Posted by tealady on November 3, 2003, at 9:21:22
In reply to Re: Civility, posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 11:29:17
Dr. Bob,
I'm hoping in offering my own personal view, it may lead to more thoughts/discussion about what may be happening as I feel the unease. I'm not saying I am right or wrong just expressing an opinion in the hope it may help in some way and not hurt anyone. I'm hoping that discussion of admin policy is what this board is for.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031008/msgs/274230.html communication.....this should show that posters need to be able to be as clear as possible in what they are trying to say and to whom they are directing it. This appears to be uncivil by your definition, but for effective communication it needs to be able to happen. If this causes someone to feel put down a little, perhaps they need to be able to learn so they can change their behaviour in the future? If one cannot tell another poster there are hurting you or they may have a differing view to you..well the atmosphere of the forum suffers, as it has recently, at least to me.It does stop many other readers from misinterpreting the meaning and being hurt, by words which DO fit your civility rules as they do not directly lead anyone in particular to fell put down. Posting in this style creates an atmosphere which is not pleasant to be in, way too much uneasiness. It could cause a lot worse.
People are being hurt a lot more by not allowing direct communication between posters. By this I obvious do not mean personal attacks of by one poster of another, but polite posts saying explicitly what they mean and how it affects them or others.
I think Brio pointed out how bans are completely ineffective if posters so wish.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031008/msgs/275212.html Susan
"I'm not disrespecting the views of others here and I don't think any *person* here is wrong. I *do* think there is something intrinsically wrong with the culture here that purports to be supportive and yet so obviously fosters such discontent... "
I think we are all saying the same thing....civility rules as currently applied cannot work.
I think, this is because a forum must allow effective communication, and this cannot happen without occasionally someone feeling put down a little as someone may disagree with them or say they are hurt by something posted. I think posters need to be able to post clearly without having to resort to hints, examples, abstractions.
I no longer feel safe on this board, as I misinterpret posts especially when it matters more, ie. when I am depressed, as they have not been able to written clearly enough for me to understand their intent or even who they are for...due to the interpretation being applied to civility rules.I also tend to pick up on dropped remarks and feel hurt. This has not helped me at all. The problem is I feel a lot were aimed at me perhaps as I was depressed, but then others may also think similarly and be hurt too. Even if they are aimed at others, this also hurts me, as I feel their discomfort. This is the atmosphere here I am talking about, All civil.
I came to support others and for support as well as to learn and share any experiences I may have had.I have learnt a lot but also have felt uncomfortable a lot of the time from what appears to be hinted at in many other posts.
I also think there are many posts that should have been deleted. If posts are merely there to hurt or annoy or provoke a reaction etc., they should be deleted. This is far more important and effective than banning anyone....I do not think discontent is inevitable.
All my opinion only FWIW, Jan
Posted by Susan J on November 3, 2003, at 9:59:18
In reply to Re: Civility, posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 11:29:17
>> You think that the culture here fosters discontent? Not that discontent is inevitable?
>
> Bob
>> I don't think it's an *either/or* situation. Yes, discontent among posters is inevitiable. But I think the culture here, a subjective civility standard, as well meaning as I know it is, inflames normal everyday discontent.I think the civility standard is noble and very well meaning. I *love* courtesy and compassion myself. But civility, like love, can be a weapon, too.
As a mental health forum, with posters dealing with sensitive issues and who have sensitive needs, I think this forum needs to be held to a higher standard than an everyday board might be. A subjective civility standard can and has wrought havoc here.
I know I keep going back to legal analogies, but that's what I know. If a person is having a heart attack on the side of the road, nobody has a legal duty to provide assistance, CPR, or whatever to that dying person. But if a bystander does jump in to help, the bystander is legally required to do *no further harm* to the dying person.
So aren't these boards kind of jumping in to help posters by providing a supportive environment? And if so, then I think these boards have a duty to:
do no further harm.
Susan
Posted by Susan J on November 3, 2003, at 9:59:47
In reply to Re: Civility » Dr. Bob, posted by tealady on November 3, 2003, at 9:21:22
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 4, 2003, at 17:59:58
In reply to Re: Civility, posted by Susan J on November 3, 2003, at 9:59:18
> posters need to be able to be as clear as possible in what they are trying to say and to whom they are directing it... If this causes someone to feel put down a little, perhaps they need to be able to learn so they can change their behaviour in the future? If one cannot tell another poster there are hurting you or they may have a differing view to you..
Posters need to be clear, but civil, too. Who's to say who "needs" to feel put down? I think people can learn without being put down. It's OK to say you feel hurt by what another poster said. And different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged.
> I no longer feel safe on this board, as I misinterpret posts especially when it matters more, ie. when I am depressed
I'm sorry you no longer feel safe. But if you're not sure how to interpret something, you can always ask...
> I also tend to pick up on dropped remarks and feel hurt... Even if they are aimed at others, this also hurts me, as I feel their discomfort.
That's another way in which civility is important...
> I also think there are many posts that should have been deleted. If posts are merely there to hurt or annoy or provoke a reaction etc., they should be deleted.
>
> JanMy philosophy has been to try to prevent them in the first place...
----
> Yes, discontent among posters is inevitiable. But I think the culture here, a subjective civility standard, as well meaning as I know it is, inflames normal everyday discontent.
>
> SusanSorry, how do you think it inflames discontent?
If someone would like to propose an objective standard, I'd be glad to consider it...
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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