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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 49. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sid on January 27, 2002, at 14:49:47
Dr.Bob,
I understand what you're saying and your choice. This is your web site after all.
I simply think it is misleading to separate the different approaches, and that people battling with terrible mental diseases would benefit more by not separating these approaches (and the discussions on them). I must say I am disappointed by your choice.My experience has been that all approaches have helped me at different times (CBT, acupuncture, meds, yoga), and I find it unfortunate that some people on the different boards sound like you're supposed to choose your camp. It's a very good example of all-or-nothing thinking. I see your web site as a place to get info, share experiences, etc... and frankly, mine does not fit anywhere. The bottom line is that, with the different approaches I took, I am doing well, better than I have before in my adult life, and I am 34. Others should know that and think about more comprehensive, rounded approaches to their disease. I am sure I am not the only one who can benefit from that.
I started meds a few months ago for dysthymia and anxiety, and I needed to read and share with people from psycho babble, but at this point, I find this site less interesting because of the separation of discussions. And because some people seem to prefer obsessing over meds to the point of becoming psychopharmacology experts, while there disease continues to ravage them. Not so interesting. I prefer getting well and not wallowing in my depression - I've done enough of that in the past. So there, I said what I had to say about separatin discussions.
- Sid
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 27, 2002, at 15:46:00
In reply to Re: separating discussions, posted by sid on January 27, 2002, at 14:49:47
> My experience has been that all approaches have helped me at different times (CBT, acupuncture, meds, yoga), and I find it unfortunate that some people on the different boards sound like you're supposed to choose your camp. It's a very good example of all-or-nothing thinking. I see your web site as a place to get info, share experiences, etc... and frankly, mine does not fit anywhere. The bottom line is that, with the different approaches I took, I am doing well, better than I have before in my adult life, and I am 34. Others should know that and think about more comprehensive, rounded approaches to their disease. I am sure I am not the only one who can benefit from that.
I'm sure you're not -- and I'm glad you have!
> some people seem to prefer obsessing over meds to the point of becoming psychopharmacology experts, while there disease continues to ravage them.
Well, different people deal with things in different ways. Hopefully, if they go in a direction that doesn't help, and there continue to be reminders about other options, they'll keep an open mind. Thanks for your input,
Bob
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 15:51:14
In reply to Re: separating discussions, posted by sid on January 27, 2002, at 14:49:47
"obsessing over meds to the point of becoming psychopharmacology experts" - I think this is happening more than it was, say, a year ago. The egos are incredible, aren't they?
- KK
Posted by jane d on January 27, 2002, at 16:57:27
In reply to Re: separating discussions » sid, posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 15:51:14
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 19:12:03
In reply to interest isn't necessarily an obsession (nm) » Krazy Kat, posted by jane d on January 27, 2002, at 16:57:27
Jane:
Now you're just "attacking" me. :) I just meant that Babble has taken on a very scientific tone, sometimes at the expense of those of us, myself included, who can't/don't follow all the studies.
I don't seem to be able to say anything correctly lately...
- KK
Posted by sid on January 27, 2002, at 20:52:43
In reply to Re: separating discussions » sid, posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 15:51:14
Indeed, it sometimes becomes a contest of who read the most about meds rather than what works.
I find my input discarded most often than not, but I am feeling better ! Isn't the ultimate goal? Shouldn't that count? Oh well, I will continue on the path I have taken, because it is going well for me. And I will hope others find their way out of mental illnesses without getting involved too much.
- Sid
> "obsessing over meds to the point of becoming psychopharmacology experts" - I think this is happening more than it was, say, a year ago. The egos are incredible, aren't they?
>
> - KK
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 10:51:16
In reply to Re: separating discussions, posted by Dr. Bob on January 27, 2002, at 15:46:00
> Well, different people deal with things in different ways. Hopefully, if they go in a direction that doesn't help, and there continue to be reminders about other options, they'll keep an open mind. Thanks for your input,
>
> BobFor there to be reminders about other options, you need to stop redirecting the said reminders. ;-)
- Sid
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 28, 2002, at 11:33:14
In reply to Re: separating discussions » Dr. Bob, posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 10:51:16
> > Hopefully, if they go in a direction that doesn't help, and there continue to be reminders about other options, they'll keep an open mind.
>
> For there to be reminders about other options, you need to stop redirecting the said reminders. ;-)Right, I'm just trying to distinguish between reminders and ongoing discussion:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020124/msgs/91744.html
And I did leave a couple reminder-type posts on that thread...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020124/msgs/91678.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020124/msgs/91732.htmlBob
PS: You didn't like my grocery store analogy? :-)
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 13:06:52
In reply to Re: separating discussions, posted by Dr. Bob on January 28, 2002, at 11:33:14
I rarely like analogies as they are not intellectual enough to satisfy my overly rational mind. I tend to roll my eyes at them, sorry.
Plus, not everybody goes to the dairy aisle of the veggy aisle without encouragement. So for good nutrition, we should have a bit of everything in each aisle. There goes your analogy! To improve people's welfare, current aisles are no good; they're made for grocers to make money, period.
So, if your website is to serve people's welfare, there should be a bit of everything on the same web page. That way, rven though someone chooses not to use some tools available to him, he is aware that they exist and that they work for some people. He is aware that it is an option for him, now or at a later time, when he is ready. Your website is not made for profit, so why keep the grocery aisle analogy?
I'm stubborn, huh? Sometimes it is a fault, sometimes it is a quality. Without it I would probably have killed myself during my major depression, but I set out to win the battle against this insidious disease. I'll leave it at that... I've said my opinion again and again. Now is time for me to enjoy life.
Posted by jane d on January 28, 2002, at 14:17:09
In reply to Grocery aisle analogy » Dr. Bob, posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 13:06:52
> Plus, not everybody goes to the dairy aisle of the veggy aisle without encouragement. So for good nutrition, we should have a bit of everything in each aisle.
Sid -
This is a bit too paternalistic for my taste. You could as easily argue that everyone should keep up with world affairs and that a daily news briefing posted here would be appropriate because it was good for us. How about a reminder about safe winter driving while we're at it?> So, if your website is to serve people's welfare, there should be a bit of everything on the same web page. That way, rven though someone chooses not to use some tools available to him, he is aware that they exist and that they work for some people. He is aware that it is an option for him, now or at a later time, when he is ready. Your website is not made for profit, so why keep the grocery aisle analogy?
OK. How about the library aisle analogy instead. I personally would be very upset if I had to wade through the Danielle Steele's when I was looking for a book on psychology (or economics) just because someone decided that I needed to lighten up a bit in my reading. I expect her fans would be equally disturbed at having my taste in books inflicted on them. We both, when we feel like something different, probably know where to find the other's books.
Your argument would make much more sense if non medication discussions were not welcome on the web SITE. Asking people to go to a different page for in depth discussions of psychotherapy is not really that great a hardship. After all, you managed to find both pages. So do most other people. And while doing that means you may miss the chance to convert a few non believers you will be more likely to find people who are already past that point and into discussing details. Why is this wrong?
Jane
Posted by jane d on January 28, 2002, at 14:20:13
In reply to Re: interest isn't necessarily an obsession » jane d, posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 19:12:03
KK - I do in fact know what you mean and sometimes agree. Some of the vocabulary I suspect IS just posturing. :-)
- Jane
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:15:04
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » sid, posted by jane d on January 28, 2002, at 14:17:09
What is wrong, in this specific instance, is that some people swear by meds while giving a bad reputation to any other approach on PB. By constantly redirecting, Dr.Bob does not even let us reply to that. I go write my reply on SPB, nobody knows what the heck I'm talking about and that's the end of it. Go look: nobody replied in SPB. There is one response only, which had to be redirected from PB anyway, by DrBob. I should think this is right?
So someone not too informed, looking for info, who sees this CBT bashing, may not go further and think that meds are the only thing that can help him. Don't waste time on CBT is the message.
If this web site is a way to inform people and help them heal, I don't think that ongoing conversations should be cut like that all the time. But clearly, this web site serves for reseach purposes more than anything else, and nobody cares about false info being given all the time. "CBT has never been useful to treat serious depression" FALSE! I have to go reply elsewhere however. Might as well not reply at all because the people who read the first statement will likely not bother to go look at the redirects.
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:23:29
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » sid, posted by jane d on January 28, 2002, at 14:17:09
> > Plus, not everybody goes to the dairy aisle of the veggy aisle without encouragement. So for good nutrition, we should have a bit of everything in each aisle.
>
> Sid -
> This is a bit too paternalistic for my taste. You could as easily argue that everyone should keep up with world affairs and that a daily news briefing posted here would be appropriate because it was good for us. How about a reminder about safe winter driving while we're at it?Jane,
I was keeping with the grocery aisle analogy. Your world affairs and safe water comments have nothing to do with the analogy. In my message, I mentioned that grocery stores are for profit businesses while this web site is supposed to have, in part, an educational purpose. That's not paternalistic, that's what Dr.Bob supposedly intends, from the agreement we all have to read before being allowed to post here. That is why his grocery aisle analogy is, at best, weak.
Posted by Fi on January 28, 2002, at 17:15:54
In reply to paternalistic » jane d, posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:23:29
I thought Dr Bob's 'educational objectives' were re him using the experience of providing such a setting for his research purposes. Not to educate *us*!
Of course, we may well learn from each other, but I dont think its a fundamental objective. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dr B?
Fi
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 17:38:31
In reply to Re: paternalistic, posted by Fi on January 28, 2002, at 17:15:54
Well, I guess I look for info on the web site, so I suppose it is educational for me, as long as I don't read falsities and go believe them.
If I didn't think I could benefit, i.e. learn, from reading here, I'd stop. I just might do that anyway because it is not the first time a conversation filled with falsities is cut short by redirecting, and I find it frustrating, clearly!
Posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 20:32:28
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » jane d, posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:15:04
I feel in a funny spot. I very much agree with sid's view & understands why she takes that view. But I can also understand Dr. Bob's side in trying to keep discussions organised & not all jumbled. Is there a way around this dilemma? Perhaps.
What if a post that's to be redirected had a new icon beside it? We now have neat little yellow icons saying 'New' - how about a green icon saying 'Redirect' that stays & don't disappear on redirected posts? And on the new page it was redirected to, there'd be the green icon but now saying 'Redirected'. Then the person who'd like to continue the discussion can find it easily. Sid, you could post just under the green 'Redirect' an invitation to please continue this discussion.
I know this might not be the best suggestion, but hey? all our minds should be able to come together & think of a good solution. I hope I can get people started. I do think it's important to know the different options of treating mental/emotional problems & that meds are just one option & shouldn't force other options not to be considered.
(Can you tell that I'm always the negotiator in a group?)
Posted by christophrejmc on January 28, 2002, at 21:25:24
In reply to Re: Finding a Solution » sid, posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 20:32:28
wanna adopt me? pls. thx.
Oh, and I also think that an icon, or some other redirect indicator would be a good idea.
(In fact, there could be a variety of icons, symbolising what the nature of a post is, etc. -- it would be easier to navigate.)
Posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 21:53:38
In reply to adopt me » IsoM, posted by christophrejmc on January 28, 2002, at 21:25:24
So are you worth anything if I adopt you? What do I get out of it? Something, I hope. :)
I'd probably mother you to death, if you didn't run away first.Yeah, it did take a bit for me to figure out these forums too & I'm *not* computer uneducated either. For me, a lot of it has to do with the previous post still printed in the answer box & figuring out what is the new answer & what was there before.
Hey, I tossed the idea of redirect icons in hoping others would constructively tear my idea apart & come up with better plans.
>
> wanna adopt me? pls. thx.
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 22:02:49
In reply to Re: Finding a Solution » sid, posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 20:32:28
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 22:03:28
In reply to adopt me » IsoM, posted by christophrejmc on January 28, 2002, at 21:25:24
Posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 22:04:03
In reply to Re: Finding a Solution » sid, posted by IsoM on January 28, 2002, at 20:32:28
Posted by jane d on January 29, 2002, at 0:21:40
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » jane d, posted by sid on January 28, 2002, at 16:15:04
> What is wrong, in this specific instance, is that some people swear by meds while giving a bad reputation to any other approach on PB. By constantly redirecting, Dr.Bob does not even let us reply to that. I go write my reply on SPB, nobody knows what the heck I'm talking about and that's the end of it. Go look: nobody replied in SPB. There is one response only, which had to be redirected from PB anyway, by DrBob. I should think this is right?
Sid,
But in fact you never did reply on PSB at all. I was waiting to see you there. Instead you made all your answers on PB arguing about why the thread should not be redirected. I certainly got the impression that you did not want to continue the conversation at all if you had to do it there. I wouldn't be surprised if other people were offended as well. Not all threads will continue - some are ready to die at the point they are redirected - but I think you could have kept this one going if you'd bothered.
> So someone not too informed, looking for info, who sees this CBT bashing, may not go further and think that meds are the only thing that can help him. Don't waste time on CBT is the message.
Maybe they are. Maybe they shouldn't. And maybe by the time we get here we are not all as ill informed as you think. After all, there are a lot of other web sites that very carefully give CBT equal time and it's pretty hard to miss them all on your way here. Many of them are designed on a basic level. When I want a certain kind of carefully edited information that is where I go. This site doesn't exist by itself so there is no reason that every single word written here has to be totally balanced within this site alone.
-Jane
Posted by jane d on January 29, 2002, at 0:31:51
In reply to Re: paternalistic, posted by Fi on January 28, 2002, at 17:15:54
> I thought Dr Bob's 'educational objectives' were re him using the experience of providing such a setting for his research purposes. Not to educate *us*!
>
> Of course, we may well learn from each other, but I dont think its a fundamental objective. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dr B?
>
> Fi
I'm not sure I see how it can do the first without doing the second so does it really matter?Jane
Posted by sid on January 29, 2002, at 10:48:31
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » sid, posted by jane d on January 29, 2002, at 0:21:40
I didn't have to write on SPB, Dr.Bob redirected my messages there. And then, there was no response from anyone. Was I supposed to reply to myself?
If I can't speak my mind about redirects now, what is it I can talk about? Perhaps you should tell me so I make sure I don't offend you anymore. Pleasing everybody really is my priority in life.
Posted by sid on January 29, 2002, at 11:20:49
In reply to Re: Grocery aisle analogy » sid, posted by jane d on January 29, 2002, at 0:21:40
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