![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 32. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
I am terrified.
Thanks.
-michelle
Posted by Phillipa on December 30, 2008, at 19:13:49
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
I've been on benzos for over 37 years. Started with valium 5mg Tid and miltown was the 70's functioned very well raising family then cold turkey the miltown no side effects at all stayed on valium cause didn't need as much gradually cut down. Then ativan out on that a while. Now klonopin could never take xanax did well on it. My whole family is on benzos and we're not brain damaged. Graduated magna cum laude from nursing school ran own aerobics business and then nursed for lots of years was fine and at times only on .125 of xanax which pdoc said was like a placebo. Now on valium 12.5 and .5 xanax. Was even benzo free at different times in life. So I don't feel they harm a person's brain my opinion only. Phillipa
Posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 19:37:29
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by Phillipa on December 30, 2008, at 19:13:49
That is amazing that you could stop and start them with no problems. Many people who stop them, even after doing a slow taper, have a horrible time. I am one of those people. However, some people, like you, can stop without any problem. What is the longest you stopped for?
If you want to see all the suffering you can go to benzobuddies.org or benzo.org.uk.
Its awful. You are very lucky indeed.
Posted by Phillipa on December 30, 2008, at 20:08:43
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 19:37:29
I guess attribute it to youth at the time and pure ignorance which was good for me. Cause didn't know it could cause problems. Right now lowering them as so tired daily think they have turned on me and now just make me tired. Who knows one day may be benzo free again. Hang in there is there a reason you must stop them now as personally don't feel they cause brain damage. Love Phillipa
Posted by JadeKelly on December 30, 2008, at 21:17:27
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
> Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
>
> I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
>
> If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
>
> I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
>
> I am terrified.
>
> Thanks.
> -michelle
Can't help but like someone called crittercuddler. My doggies kept me sane during some tough times. Anyway, yes, I am afraid also. I'm currently on 3mg klonopin a day. The scary part is I've been told how safe it is I've been lazy about d/cing the stuff. I have no psychological dependence on it but have taken it for 10 years this month for nerve pain from a car accident. I talked to someone on it, if it was you, you'll forgive me as I suspect now, as you do, that this drug has caused cognitive problems at times. Posibbly it set me up for the depressive episode I had. Anyway, along time ago I had an overnight surgery and thought well, I'll be taking pain pills so shouldn't take klonopin too, right? No-one told me!!! I had NO IDEA there was a withdrawal. So I cold turkeyed at 3mg a day!! I was convinced for 30 days the surgery was killing me. Bad sweats, paranoia, anxiety thru the roof, it was insane. Being the idiot I apparently am, it took me 30 days to figure it out. Thirty days of blood tests(they didnt catch it) 30 days of appts, Dr. calls, etc. INSANE! So I've not been in a hurry to d/c.Can you tell me in what ways you are worse? I am finally in some remission from depression with Parnate, the last thing I need is to have w/d's interfere this early on in recovery. But I too want badly to get off this drug. Is there a way to test if it has done damage? sorry if this repeat for you. I think I'll get secure in recovery, and then taper very slowly. My PDoc said .5 mg per week. Sounds like that landed you in the hospital? What did you feel as you were withdrawing from it? Hope you feel better.
~Jade
>
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2008, at 23:14:20
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
Hi michelle. I read the thread you linked to, and I do understand your concerns. Some biochemical balances bounce back fairly quickly after drug withdrawal, and some seem to take forever. But I think the capacity to restore equilibrium is only lost under extraordinary circumstances.
In the case of benzodiazepine withdrawal, there is a rebound phenomenon. The rebound overshoots the "normal" set-point, and produces aggravated symptoms like those that first led to treatment. In the case of anxiety, becoming far more anxious than you used to be just doesn't seem fair and right. And, if you're innately anxious, you've now got anxiety to be anxious about, a potential vicious circle of emotional excitement. It's no wonder you might feel worse than you did before. You probably do.
Here's the key point though, the rebound phenomenon is proof that your body is seeking a normal equilibrium. GABA-A receptors do decrease in number under chronic benzodiazepine exposure. It takes time for your body to recognize the deficit, to upregulate the genes that produce them, and to synthesize the receptors. I have full faith that your capacity will rebound. What I can't predict is how long it will take.
There are some supplements that might help you through some rough moments. The amino acid taurine also has effects similar to GABA on norepinephrine release, so it's a fairly potent stress mediator. Magnesium is essential for GABA-A receptor function, so ensuring you're not deficient can lead to better overall function. And, the B-vitamin niacinamide (not niacin, but niacinamide) improves GABA-A receptor function, and also acts as a mild agonist at the receptor (mimics GABA modestly).
And there's a behavioural modification that might give you some long-term benefits, called mindfulness. It's a meditative awareness state, quite useful for dealing with stress. Right now, I'm mindful that I'm well past my bedtime, and I need to shut it down. Happy to talk more, later, if you wish.
Lar
Posted by yxibow on December 31, 2008, at 5:52:28
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2008, at 23:14:20
Considering all the knowledge we have had and the fact that benzodiazepines were in the lab in 1958, they, and chlorpromazine and its successors have been the most studied groups of psychiatric medications besides pre-FDA agents such as barbiturates.
That being said, they're not completely innocuous, but they're probably the safest agents out there when properly used just from the tens of millions of patient years of exposure.
They should be ramped up carefully and discontinued carefully, especially at high doses.
As for a personal experience on going off benzodiazepines "cold turkey" around 11 years ago, I didn't really know the consequences of such a thing. I was observed by friends to be a bit overmedicated so I dropped Tranxene 15mg 3x a day.
That's a fairly strong dose for a year's length of time and I experienced an intense reaction where all the muscles in my scalp started moving. People could actually feel this dystonic reaction.
Such that the student health center said that this would go away and not to worry, well its here 11 years later, it gets reactivated at times of stress like my recent battles with anxiety and mainly has "solidified" my scalp making things taught and typically causing me to crack my neck or stretch around and I see my toes wriggle.
I was given back only half my dose by my benzo-hating doctor... I won't even go there, that was an atrocious relation. The psychologist was far nicer.
Moral is, even if you can "get away with it", don't drop benzodiazepines cold if you've been on them for more than a month or so and you are at any dose larger than a PRN nature.They'll always be around, should your doctor be responsible and make them available, and they'll be there when you need to make a transition off of them. Its not worth the risk of seizures and other unpleasantries.
As for "tapering methods", well people have their own belief, but I don't believe there is a single person (I wont go into the controversy) 's method that is "the method".
The basic evidence based psychiatric method is about 10% per week, more if you can do so, backing off less if you cant -- do not feel that you are any less weaker if you are unable to.
Also, if they are a necessary part of your plan even if you have become habituated to them, you should also not feel guilty.
I know I still need them and it is such a hard thing that I wonder when I won't need Valium any more but I know that it is one of the several key medications of my polypharmacy that allows me to function even if I have to watch out for its side effects.
Because the effects of not having it are equally evidence based as has been found unfortunately and I need to preserve my functionality (which sounds such a clinical term) to its highest level. Its just not the time yet to come down or to come down all that quickly.
-- tidingsJay
Posted by SLS on December 31, 2008, at 10:22:49
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by yxibow on December 31, 2008, at 5:52:28
I wonder if any of the anticonvulsants can be used to mitigate the withdrawal syndrome induced by benzodiazepine discontinuation. I would think that Depakote would help. If the withdrawal syndrome (overshoot) is buffered, perhaps sequalae involving kindling can be avoided. Kindling might be a contributor to some of the persistent adverse effects that people report.
I almost always have questions to ask. I rarely have answers. :-(
- Scott
Posted by Abby Cunningham on December 31, 2008, at 12:52:21
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
Hi Michelle,
I have been on benzos almost the same length of time as Phillipa and I do not believe that they have affected my cognition to any degree. I consulted with the top benzo guy from Boston in the country (head of the benzo study some years back), a psychiatrist who is famous and he told me they were safe to take in such small doses for years especially since I never increased and in fact have decreased the equivalent of 25mg. of valium and take a very small dose.Also, you are early off the benzo---in fact most of the forum administrators say give yourself 18 months at least.
You may belong to the Yahoo benzo group; I do. There is plenty of evidence that people do recover and live normal lives post-benzo. In the following article, six studies were conducted and 3 found no evidence whatsoever of any decline (the date on this is 2005 whereas the date on the article you copied is 2000) I agree that we need more studies on this; but I would not worry about it! Anxiety itself can cause cognitive decline if you think about it.You can't go back, so go forward in this new year! Best wishes. Abby
> Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
>
> I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
>
> If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
>
> I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
>
> I am terrified.
>
> Thanks.
> -michelle
>
>
Posted by crittercuddler on December 31, 2008, at 14:17:35
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by JadeKelly on December 30, 2008, at 21:17:27
Jade,
.5mg a week is WAY too fast of a taper. Please read the "Ashton Manual" online. It is a great resource to educate yourself about benzos and how to withdrawal in the safest and least painful way possible. I unfortunately found it too late.
You can check out the links to these threads I have going on some forums to see how I am doing.
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=10812.0
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11414.0
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=10815.0
If you are interested in tapering off of Klonopin, please check out benzoisland.org or benzobuddies.org. I am a member at both support sites and the posting name is the same crittercuddler.
benzo.org.uk is also a good site.
My anxiety is the worst. I experience anxiety on a daily basis like none that I have ever experienced in my life before taking a benzo. I am afraid to do most everything and the anxiety is crippling. I also have had tinnitus continually for 6 months and do many people who stop their benzo. It is awful.
Posted by crittercuddler on December 31, 2008, at 14:36:28
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2008, at 23:14:20
Thank you so much Lar for the encouragement. I have been scouring the internet for months trying to find something to the effect of what you just told me.
What are your sources for the information you shared about the rebound phenomenon? And especially, this statement:
"Here's the key point though, the rebound phenomenon is proof that your body is seeking a normal equilibrium. GABA-A receptors do decrease in number under chronic benzodiazepine exposure. It takes time for your body to recognize the deficit, to upregulate the genes that produce them, and to synthesize the receptors. I have full faith that your capacity will rebound. What I can't predict is how long it will take."
What daily amounts and dosing schedules would you recommend for the supplements that you suggested?
Posted by SLS on December 31, 2008, at 14:39:31
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by SLS on December 31, 2008, at 10:22:49
> I wonder if any of the anticonvulsants can be used to mitigate the withdrawal syndrome induced by benzodiazepine discontinuation. I would think that Depakote would help. If the withdrawal syndrome (overshoot) is buffered, perhaps sequalae involving kindling can be avoided. Kindling might be a contributor to some of the persistent adverse effects that people report.
Is anyone game for giving Depakote a try to minimize the benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome? Subsequent to my last post, I found some investigations designed to evaluate the use of Depakote to minimize withdrawal symptoms.
One study I came across suggested that Topamax might be a better drug for benzodiazepine withdrawal than Depakote. Depakote seems to be particularly effective to treat alcohol withdrawal.
- Scott-------------------------------------------------
1: Alcohol Alcohol. 2000 Jul-Aug;35(4):319-23.Click here to read Links
A role for valproate in the treatment of sedative-hypnotic withdrawal and for relapse prevention.
Harris JT, Roache JD, Thornton JE.Department of Psychiatry, The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, 78284-7953, USA.
In the human central nervous system, the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) type A receptor complex undergoes changes with both acute and chronic exposure to sedative-hypnotic drugs. These changes contribute to both the acute effects of these drugs as well as the chronic effects of sedative-hypnotic dependence, withdrawal, and drug craving. Clinically these chronic effects are difficult to treat in patients dependent on ethanol or benzodiazepines. Valproate may return the GABA type A receptor function to a state more closely resembling its normal function. By this mechanism, it is possible to reduce the symptoms of sedative-hypnotic withdrawal and relapse.
Posted by linkadge on January 1, 2009, at 9:27:02
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by SLS on December 31, 2008, at 10:22:49
I would just use plain old taurine. It interacts with gaba-a receptors and calcium channels has potent antioxidant effects and has proven effects in reducing alcohol withdrawl.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 1, 2009, at 9:28:27
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by linkadge on January 1, 2009, at 9:27:02
Posted by ajax1 on January 1, 2009, at 15:59:25
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2008, at 23:14:20
Was interested in your use of supplements to ease benzo withdrawal. What amounts of each would you use?
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 2, 2009, at 20:40:18
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by ajax1 on January 1, 2009, at 15:59:25
> Was interested in your use of supplements to ease benzo withdrawal. What amounts of each would you use?
Well, more than half of people are deficient in magnesium. It just makes sense to make sure you're not one of them, it's so cheap, so important, and so safe. So, I'd recommend 100-300 mg, 1 to 3 times a day, of any magnesium salt (not magnesium oxide, which is poorly absorbed). One of the consequences of magnesium deficiency is poor uptake, and poor uptake makes loose stools a possible consequence. So, start at a lower dose, and if loose stools arise, back off a bit and give yourself a chance to adjust. Then increase after a week or so. If it makes you sleepy, best take it just before retiring to bed.
The taurine and niacinamide can be taken for anxiety symptoms.
Taurine dose of 500-2000 mg, max about 5000 mg/day, in divided doses.
Niacinamide, 100-500 mg/dose, max 2000 mg/day.
If you use either of these frequently, you're likely to find a diminished response. I don't know if that's a result of tolerance, or simply that your body is no longer so deficient in them.
Niacinamide also helps with allergies, acting as an antihistaminic. It also reduces the tendency to sunburn. Taurine has a number of cardiovascular benefits, and improves blood sugar regulation.
Lar
Posted by sdb on January 4, 2009, at 0:39:48
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
> Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
>
> I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
>
> If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
>
> I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
>
> I am terrified.
>
> Thanks.
> -michelle
>
>
I don't think that benzos damage the brain.
Sometimes these substances are used to prevent damage to the brain from 'excitatory' nerve firing.They're even less dangerous than other drugs. Combined with alcohol there can be some danger short term for some people (a no go). Some benzos have the risk to induce psychological depression.
What benzos do is maybe somebody addicted (I believe mainly psychologically) because one is no more ready to give the relief away.
warm regards
sdb
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 4, 2009, at 8:55:07
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
> Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
>
> I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
>
> If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
>
> I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
>
> I am terrified.
>
> Thanks.
> -michellemichelle... You wrote,[...if you are interested...].
I am interested in your situation and I can tell you that what you are experiancing has been experiance by many others.
I have been interested in what happens to those who take BZDs and how I can help others to overcome the effects that you describe here.
I am unsure as to if what I could say is or is not permitted by me to say here due to new rules made here. So if you would like to hear from my perspective as to overcomming the effects that you are describing, you could email me if you like.Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
there is an underscore between my name and the 1188
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 5, 2009, at 7:36:36
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
> Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
>
> I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
>
> If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
>
> I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
>
> I am terrified.
>
> Thanks.
> -michelle
>
>Hi Michelle ;-)
The big issue with the benzo drugs are the addiction. Some people (like me) developp an addiction problem very fast and need more and more benzo high doses to reach the same effect they had at the begining of their treatment, especially the Rivotril in my case. Someone who tend to use alcohol often to relieve is social anxiety, like I was doing before I begining the benzo drugs, and continue to use it with the benzo drugs will have a lot more chance to became addicted and less chance to withdrawh of the benzo drugs without any problem.Another big issue is the permanent dommage...It's seem that people with no addiction problem will be able to go off the benzo drugs after many years on them without having any problem or permanent damage. You can look at the Ashton Book, I think she talk about permanent dammage. (Benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms, acute & protracted) chapter...
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha01.htm#24
From my experience, I have a lot of difficulties with the benzo drugs and to withdraw them. Since I take them (now on Valium 20mg/day...succedd to reduce to Valium 10-15mg/day recently), I can say that I lost a lot of my memory and concentration with them. Before, I was someone really fast to understand everything, I never had to study a lot at school or to keep a list of my appointment, since I was always remember everything. Now, it's seem that I lost a lot of my concentration and short term memory with them.
I also wonder if it will be permanent or not...but who know, I think it will depend of how your brains are made...
They also tend to cause a more profond depression episode on people, that's what happen with me...and the tendancy to became used to their hypnotic effects make them a lot more hard to withdraw, since insomnia can be a big side effect when you stop them and sometimes it can last several months to years...The amnesic part of their actions make them also a lot hard for the impairement of the memory...I think it's related to the loss of concentration and short term memory...
Anyway, I think if you can stop them, you should do it gradually...to avoid unnecessary withdraw symptoms. Sure, you can experience a return in the same state than before in term of anxiety, sometimes rebound anxiety is worst than the anxiety you had before using them, but my theory is that you're better off them is you can do it than on them...
The brains seem to also developp a tolerance against the actions of the benzo drugs, changing the structure of the brain and make the gaba-a action completely inneffective. I think at this point it's a no return...
Some people will claim that "drugs" with gaba-b type target of action will help to withdraw from the benzo drugs (Neurontin, Lyrica...) but I believe that's not true, since they don't produce the same actions on the brains and don't have actions on anxiety or insomnia...but a more powerfull anticonvulsant action only.
I think permanent damage will tend to fade away and not being so "permanent" with time. You feed your brains with that kind of drug, a lot more powerfull than what most of the people think...so your brains need some time to recover.
That's only my point of view...I hope everything will be ok with you soon ;-) And I hope I will be able also to come off the benzo drug, after more than 3 years on them...I don't care about permanent dammage, I think anyway i'm better off them...Take pills for nothing like I do now make me feel like i'm addicted to a drug and I feel guilty of it...but what I can do??? Nothing cause it's the thrue...Maybe after I will stop them completly, I will never recover at 100% and stay with a poor memory or muscles shaking or a lesser concentration level, but I prefer this than having an addiction will last all my life...
Have a good day !! :-)
Vincent ;-)
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 1:43:29
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by Vincent_QC on January 5, 2009, at 7:36:36
Overall i'd say there is much less risk from a benzo than from many antidepressants.
But i think the unknown is the degree to which long-term use changes the ratio of the gabaa receptor types. i could see a situation where the benzo-influenced gabaa receptors are reduced in number, but the overall gabaa receptors increase back to a balance point; but iwth fewer of some subtypes, and more of others. This seems unexplored.
In general the brain is quite adaptable, and getting the environment and one's undestanding of it and of oneself right is really the biggest factor.
-d/r
Posted by sdb on January 9, 2009, at 13:03:35
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzos }} crittercuddler, posted by sdb on January 4, 2009, at 0:39:48
> > Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
> >
> > I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> > http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
> >
> > If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
> >
> > I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
> >
> > I am terrified.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > -michelle
> >
> >
>
>
> I don't think that benzos damage the brain.
> Sometimes these substances are used to prevent damage to the brain from 'excitatory' nerve firing.
>
> They're even less dangerous than other drugs. Combined with alcohol there can be some danger short term for some people (a no go).There are many intoxications with benzodiazepines (over dosage combined with other things) but compared to other drugs not many fatalities (to be more precise). There is also flumazenil that is an antidot which can be used in an emergency.
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 9, 2009, at 17:37:03
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzos (precision), posted by sdb on January 9, 2009, at 13:03:35
> > > Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
> > >
> > > I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> > > http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
> > >
> > > If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
> > >
> > > I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
> > >
> > > I am terrified.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > -michelle
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > I don't think that benzos damage the brain.
> > Sometimes these substances are used to prevent damage to the brain from 'excitatory' nerve firing.
> >
> > They're even less dangerous than other drugs. Combined with alcohol there can be some danger short term for some people (a no go).
>
> There are many intoxications with benzodiazepines (over dosage combined with other things) but compared to other drugs not many fatalities (to be more precise). There is also flumazenil that is an antidot which can be used in an emergency.sdb,
You wrote,[...they (BZDs) are..less dangerous than other drugs...] and, [...combined with alcohol..some danger..short term..for some people..(a no go)...] and, [...not many fatalities...].
I am unsure as to many aspects of the grammatical structure of your post and would like to know what authority you used in the following:
A.in,[...less dangerous than other drugs...] what are the other drugs that you are wanting to use as a comnparison and what authority did you use to make that statement?
B. in,[...combined with alcohol..some danger,,short term..for some people..(a no go)...]
1.Could you differentiate as to if you are wanting to mean that the danger is undertermined or not due to the grammatical structure of the use of the word {some} and any authority for such?
2.what are you wanting to mean by {short term} here and any authority for such?
3. in {for some people}, what are the criteria, if you know, to determine which people could be in danger? Could you post an authority that states that not all people, but some people, could be in danger if BZDs are combined with alcohol?
4. what are you wanting to mean by {a no go}?
5. in {not many fatalities}, could you post an authority that states such and what you are wanting to mean by {not many}
If you could post answers to my concerns, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on January 9, 2009, at 20:12:09
In reply to Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » sdb, posted by Lou Pilder on January 9, 2009, at 17:37:03
I'm living testimony that you can drink with benzos on them over 37 years and until 14 years ago drank nightly beer with them and no problem, no hang over felt fine better than fine. Phillipa
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 11, 2009, at 12:17:47
In reply to Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » sdb, posted by Lou Pilder on January 9, 2009, at 17:37:03
> sdb,
> You wrote,[...they (BZDs) are..less dangerous than other drugs...] and, [...combined with alcohol..some danger..short term..for some people..(a no go)...] and, [...not many fatalities...].
> I am unsure as to many aspects of the grammatical structure of your post and would like to know what authority you used in the following:
> A.in,[...less dangerous than other drugs...] what are the other drugs that you are wanting to use as a comnparison and what authority did you use to make that statement?
> B. in,[...combined with alcohol..some danger,,short term..for some people..(a no go)...]
> 1.Could you differentiate as to if you are wanting to mean that the danger is undertermined or not due to the grammatical structure of the use of the word {some} and any authority for such?
> 2.what are you wanting to mean by {short term} here and any authority for such?
> 3. in {for some people}, what are the criteria, if you know, to determine which people could be in danger? Could you post an authority that states that not all people, but some people, could be in danger if BZDs are combined with alcohol?
> 4. what are you wanting to mean by {a no go}?
> 5. in {not many fatalities}, could you post an authority that states such and what you are wanting to mean by {not many}
> If you could post answers to my concerns, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> Lou
>That's seem too much complicated for nothing. I think we can argue on a lot of points about the benzos drugs without having to post studies or web links to proof what we write...We are not students in psychiatrict field...well i'm not...maybe you...
For my own experience, I used a lot my benzo drugs with alcohol...8mg/day of Rivotril with tons of Vodka or beers at night, and more than 4 nights by week for 1 year and more...and I never had any problems, no loss of consciousness, I always remember anything I do on benzos and alcohol...but I can't tell you if it's like this for everyone or not. One thing is sure, for me, I get addicted more fast on the benzo drugs because I had already an alcohol abuse problem before I start them...So the theory about addiction and others comorbidities like alcohol or drug abuse is somewhat possible!!! No study to support my facts...sorry.
For the little I know about the internal functional of the gaba receptors in the brains and how they work, I can also write that it must be possible that gaba receptor are destroy and finding in a fewer number in the brains after the use of benzo drugs for a long-term period of time, especially with high potent benzo drugs. It's also possible that gaba receptor transform themself and try to adapt to the benzo drugs by encountering the effects of the benzo drugs on them, creating a new kind of gaba receptors who will not answer to the benzo drugs...making the benzo drugs less effective with time. Is it related to the alcohol abuse I had at the same time I used benzo drugs? I really don't know...I'm not a doctor or a Pdoc...
One thing is sure, I can write that the most potent the benzo drugs are (Rivotril, Xanax, Lorazepam) and the less time they have an action on the gaga brains (short half-life), and the more they will be addictive...and the more they can cause cognitives and impairements problems that will stay , even after the benzo drug are completly stop and withdrawh...
I only answer with my self knowledge and my own experience...
It's why, when it's time to write or speak about benzodiazepine drugs, I always point the Ashtoon manual... She's the best specialist in that field and she's a reliable and a good source of informations for me. She do a lot of research on the benzo drugs and how they work and with her, I know I not reading b*llsh*t studies or things that are just bla bla bla from the Internet...
Sorry, I just feel I had to add my point of view here...
For the little I know also, Valium seem to be the less addictive benzo drug but is also less potent than the Rivotril or Xanax...and the Valium is less potent for addiction but a way more sedative at the begining than any Xanax, Rivotril or Ativan pills...Valium is also the most easy benzo drug to stop....you can minimise withdraw effects by slowly reducing the dosage by 1mg every one or two weeks...keep in minds that 5mg of Valium =0.25mg of Rivotril, 0.25mg of Xanax and 0.5mg of Ativan...Since the Valium come into small pill of 2mg, you can cut it more easy to stop them...so that's another important point when it's time to withdraw and stop a benzo drug...
You can take my informations like just others bla bla bla...I just speaking about my own experience...I know benzo drugs are hard to stop and I know they are addictive...but I don't know why some people don't get addicted to them and can stop them cold turkey without having cognitives impairements at all or permanent dammages...
Have a good day!
Vincent ;-)
PS: Nothing personnal here...I just felt that I had an urge envy to write what I think....
Posted by sdb on January 11, 2009, at 14:24:02
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » Lou Pilder, posted by Vincent_QC on January 11, 2009, at 12:17:47
Vincent_QC wrote:
'bla bla bla...I just speaking about my own 'experienceThis is not just bla bla. Personal experience is worthy information, knowledge that you can't obtain by reading hundred books.
Thanks for sharing your experience with other people.
warm regards
sdb
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