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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TommyIsland on September 15, 2004, at 4:38:30
Hello, I have been reading posts on here from time to time over the past 2 years and am amazed at the vast variety of different experiences people have on whatever medications they are taking. It just seems to me that no two people are alike in their "medication for success" journey. I am here to shed light on my success / negatives of Effexor XR.
I'm 28 years old and have suffered hard core from suicidal depression (in a sense that if I'm not medicated I'm literally so low that I am immobolized) since the tender age of 15 years old. Of coarse it's been 1 big journey to just try and understand that I'm not crazy as I thought I was at age 15 and it's been an uphill battle to say the very least. Anyways, I've tried many meds with no success until I came upon Effexor XR in 1999. True to what many other people have said, it did do a great job at putting me in an almost "Zombie type" state of mind where I could physically not get excited or upset. This was great for the anxiety because now I had nerves of steel and didn't get nervous in the physical sense of the word. This is great for somebody who suffers from severe anxiety but at the same time it truly diminishes life's experiences because u are in a "Middle State" as I like to call it. The major drawback to being in a middle state is that you don't get to experience the physical sensations of emotions because your body is literally in a semi tranquilized state. One strange example of this is with adrenaline. I could mentally get angry at a situation but I can't get my motor running physically. For instance, I got into a physical fight at a club with some punk who literally came over and started with me for some ridiculous reason (not to mention he was on steroids and on some kind of drugs and drunk) and I internally / mentally was angry at the kid but physically I was unable to get mad in a sense to where my body could produce adrenaline and want to kick his ass. Situations like these really make me feel not normal and make me tremendously dislike Effexor XR. Another thing is the sexual side effects. I have to literally plan on trying to make myself "horny." I take 150 MG a day and if I plan on "getting the job done in bed" I have to not take the pill for about 2 days until I feel the sensations of withdrawl and then I can orgasm. Even at this level, the orgasm in not intense and my libido is extremely low still. Another MAJOR MAJOR complaint with the medication is how sleepy it makes me all the time. I swear when I fall asleep, it is almost impossible for me to wake up because the sedation power is so strong that all I want to do is continue to sleep. There have been times where I have been able to sleep for 15 hours straight. I also am wired at night and prefer to fall asleep late and get about late (noonish.) The job I do allows me to live this "unwanted time habitual lifestyle" because I have my own business which works at nighttime....(An Entertainment Company / DJ Business.) My energy levels and my enthusiasm to do things are always extremely low and I procrastinate to no end because I "don't feel like" doing anything extra that I don't have to. I don't have manic episodes as a classic "Bipolar" is suppossed to have. I am what you would call a "Unipolar" where all I experience is the Depression side of this illness. My life is passing by year by year and I'm getting in my late twenties now (28 to be exact about it) and I want to be able to experience life in a whole new way. I'm sick of this "rut" life experience I've been living for so long. Yes the anxiety is alleviated to some strong degree and the depression is alleviated to a level I can deal with, but my life is so unsatisfying that it makes me so sad that I have all these goals and no desire, passion, or drive to complete any of them because I live in this world of complete "frozeness" for lack of a better word. The last time I got off of Effexor XR was December of 2002 and I actually felt great for a couple days of being off of it. Then I crumbled into the deepest darkest depression since the age of 15. I cried nonstop and thought that life couldn't get any lower and that the only way out would be suicide. I actually contemplated it mentally because I was so damn low it hurt to open my eyes. I went onto Lexapro for 2 months with little to no success and then back onto Effexor XR because it was the only thing that had stabilized me for so long. I got back on it and have been ever since. I want to find something else and I want to find it soon because I can't live the way I'm living anymore. I want go somewhere in life.........fall in love and get married eventually and I need a desperate change to get me going again - living again. If anybody could help me with any suggestions about medications or if anybody could relate to my personal experiences please write back as it would mean a lot to me. God Bless everybody who struggles out there and just remember to keep trucking along and trying and not to give up because there is life out there for everybody.
Sincerely,
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by sooshi on September 15, 2004, at 10:41:55
In reply to My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere, posted by TommyIsland on September 15, 2004, at 4:38:30
Hi Tommy,
I am so sorry you are experiencing so much pain! But hang in there...there are lots of great people on this board with lots of good adivce!
I too have been on Effexor Xr for 5 years. Until I got on a mood stabilizer (Zonegran), it just kept me barely afloat, so I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm not suggesting you need a mood stabilzier, though. Maybe adding something to *boost* the Effexor Xr, to give you more energy and increase the anhedonia side effects you're feeling. I know Wellbutrin is one med that is used, and it also helps with the sexual side effects. Hopefully someone else will chime in with some other suggestions (Scott?)
Also, you might consider switching to Cymbalta, which is similar to Effexor with less side effects...check out some of the latest posts here - there's a bunch of people giving it a go for the first time!
Good luck to you and keep us posted,
Sooshi
Posted by jrbecker on September 15, 2004, at 11:20:36
In reply to Re: My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere » TommyIsland, posted by sooshi on September 15, 2004, at 10:41:55
> Hi Tommy,
>
> I am so sorry you are experiencing so much pain! But hang in there...there are lots of great people on this board with lots of good adivce!
>
> I too have been on Effexor Xr for 5 years. Until I got on a mood stabilizer (Zonegran), it just kept me barely afloat, so I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm not suggesting you need a mood stabilzier, though. Maybe adding something to *boost* the Effexor Xr, to give you more energy and increase the anhedonia side effects you're feeling. I know Wellbutrin is one med that is used, and it also helps with the sexual side effects. Hopefully someone else will chime in with some other suggestions (Scott?)
>
> Also, you might consider switching to Cymbalta, which is similar to Effexor with less side effects...check out some of the latest posts here - there's a bunch of people giving it a go for the first time!
>
> Good luck to you and keep us posted,
> SooshiI'll echo the recommendation for a trial of Cymbalta. Your complaints about the good/bad side of effexor truly resonate with my own. It was my mainstay drug [on/off] for the last 6 years.
So far, Cymbalta has been less "zombie-like" and the side effects are less noticeable (e.g., sexual, sedation, apathy). If you try it, be conservative and start low. Perhaps try 30 mg for a couple weeks while you cross-taper off the effexor. And then, instead of upping to 60mg, you might want to trial 40mg (20mg twice daily). This might be enough for you and will keep the anergic side effects at bay.
Good luck.JB
Posted by TommyIsland on September 15, 2004, at 18:22:03
In reply to Re: My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere, posted by jrbecker on September 15, 2004, at 11:20:36
> > Hi Tommy,
> >
> > I am so sorry you are experiencing so much pain! But hang in there...there are lots of great people on this board with lots of good adivce!
> >
> > I too have been on Effexor Xr for 5 years. Until I got on a mood stabilizer (Zonegran), it just kept me barely afloat, so I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm not suggesting you need a mood stabilzier, though. Maybe adding something to *boost* the Effexor Xr, to give you more energy and increase the anhedonia side effects you're feeling. I know Wellbutrin is one med that is used, and it also helps with the sexual side effects. Hopefully someone else will chime in with some other suggestions (Scott?)
> >
> > Also, you might consider switching to Cymbalta, which is similar to Effexor with less side effects...check out some of the latest posts here - there's a bunch of people giving it a go for the first time!
> >
> > Good luck to you and keep us posted,
> > Sooshi
>
> I'll echo the recommendation for a trial of Cymbalta. Your complaints about the good/bad side of effexor truly resonate with my own. It was my mainstay drug [on/off] for the last 6 years.
>
> So far, Cymbalta has been less "zombie-like" and the side effects are less noticeable (e.g., sexual, sedation, apathy). If you try it, be conservative and start low. Perhaps try 30 mg for a couple weeks while you cross-taper off the effexor. And then, instead of upping to 60mg, you might want to trial 40mg (20mg twice daily). This might be enough for you and will keep the anergic side effects at bay.
>
> Good luck.
>
> JB
>Thanks for the encouragement - it really helps to hear other people our there can relate and have similar stories. One thing I didn't mention is that I've also been taking Depakote at a rate of (2) 500 MG tablets a day. Now I don't know too much about the side effects of this med except for long term Liver damage, I've heard and believe the hair thinning / loss thing.......but I really don't know too much about what good it would do in my position. Like I said earlier, I am Unipolar and never suffer from Mania and it would seem to me from my studies of this med, that it is necessary for somebody with mania but for someone who is always depressed such as myself I do not see the benefit of it. What can any of you tell me for some advice here? Could the Depakote be responsible for putting me into such a "Zombie" state of mind also? I also think I'm going to make the switch to Cymbalta. Please get back to me with some suggestions to my questions.
Thanks,
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
Posted by sooshi on September 15, 2004, at 21:04:14
In reply to Re: My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere, posted by TommyIsland on September 15, 2004, at 18:22:03
Tommy,
Aha! Depakote did the exact same thing to me as what you are experiencing now!! I was taking around 1250mg, and although it pulled me out of a worsening agitated hypomania, all it did was "zone" me out, and put me in a state of anhedonia! Like you said, I could be in a room full of people, and just...I don't know, not feel a thing. I eventually stopped taking it because I started losing all my hair.
I'm no doctor, but you may want to talk this over with your pdoc and get off this stuff. If you don't have any hypomania, what exactly are you taking a MS for anyway?
Keep me posted!
Sooshi
Posted by TommyIsland on September 16, 2004, at 0:25:54
In reply to Re: My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere » TommyIsland, posted by sooshi on September 15, 2004, at 21:04:14
> Tommy,
>
> Aha! Depakote did the exact same thing to me as what you are experiencing now!! I was taking around 1250mg, and although it pulled me out of a worsening agitated hypomania, all it did was "zone" me out, and put me in a state of anhedonia! Like you said, I could be in a room full of people, and just...I don't know, not feel a thing. I eventually stopped taking it because I started losing all my hair.
>
> I'm no doctor, but you may want to talk this over with your pdoc and get off this stuff. If you don't have any hypomania, what exactly are you taking a MS for anyway?
>
> Keep me posted!
> Sooshi
As of last night I have decided to discontinue Depakote because it makes absolutely no sense why I would be taking it in the first place. That is for manics.....not a unipolar condition with full time depression. Just goes to show you how so many docs are so quick to categorize u and throw u on some routine regime med dosage that they have prob prescribed to hundreds of other patients with a wide variet of different problems. What is it with the hair loss thing? Has it been documented anywhere that it truly does thin out your hair? It seems that on this site people all complain about that problem but of coarse u don't seem to find it in any Depakote side effect reports online anywhere.
Tommy!!!!!!!!!
Posted by jrbecker on September 16, 2004, at 11:12:25
In reply to Re: My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere, posted by TommyIsland on September 16, 2004, at 0:25:54
> As of last night I have decided to discontinue Depakote because it makes absolutely no sense why I would be taking it in the first place.
Tommy - please keep your doc in the loop about your med change. You might be right about discontinuing it, but you should definitely not dismiss his consult. Sorry for the PSA.JB
Posted by jujube on September 17, 2004, at 8:08:28
In reply to My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere, posted by TommyIsland on September 15, 2004, at 4:38:30
TommyIsland,
My experience on Effexor XR is very similar to yours. Although I had not endured what you have in terms of depression (my heart goes out to you), I would not consider my Effexor XR experience a success story. I became physically ill last year, and was finally diagnosed with iron deficiency in the fall. My energy levels were so low and my mood, usually happy, enthusiastic, motivated, but somewhat anxious, was waning big time. I was being treated for the iron deficiency, but it was a long haul to bring the levels up. I got impatient and decided to seek a second opinion, and, hopefully, get some relief quicker. The second opinion told me I was depressed and put me on Effexor XR. From the beginning I knew it was not the drug for me (I had had great success with Paxil over eight years ago when I stopped drinking) - I was sick, twitching, anxious, etc. I went back to my trusted gp who continued to treat the iron deficiency, but didn't want to mess around with the medication. Luckily, she had a friend who is a pdoc, and I was able to see him about the medication, particularly dosing, etc. He increased the dose twice and urged me to stay with it. Over the six months I was on Effexor, I found myself becoming increasingly apathetic, unmotivated, anxious and even apprehensive (although I am not a panic suffering, I had had one experience that could have been considered a panic attack when on my way to work. I had been suffering from a stomach flu and I knew before I even left for work that I was sick and shouldn't be going in (when getting ready to leave for work, I had to lay down a couple of time because I thought I was going to be sick). Finally, I started looking into natural alternatives and called the pdoc to see if I could add Sam-e and another product because I could continue to exist in the dazed and lethargic way I was. He was not familiar enough with the supplements to agree to usage. But, he did switch me to Celexa. I have now been Effexor free for 8 days, after weaning for two weeks. I have emotions now (not all good at this point. I find myself somewhat angry and negative, which is not my usual state of mind). I don't care at this point because it is just so nice to actually feel again. I know there are a lot of people out there who have had great success with Effexor, and I am happy for them, and somewhat envious. Me, I don't like feeling like a zombie. So, I begin my Celexa journey, and am hoping that it will undo the numbing effects of the Effexor. Sorry for the long message and thanks for listening.
Posted by TommyIsland on September 17, 2004, at 19:51:49
In reply to Re: My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere, posted by jujube on September 17, 2004, at 8:08:28
> TommyIsland,
>
> My experience on Effexor XR is very similar to yours. Although I had not endured what you have in terms of depression (my heart goes out to you), I would not consider my Effexor XR experience a success story. I became physically ill last year, and was finally diagnosed with iron deficiency in the fall. My energy levels were so low and my mood, usually happy, enthusiastic, motivated, but somewhat anxious, was waning big time. I was being treated for the iron deficiency, but it was a long haul to bring the levels up. I got impatient and decided to seek a second opinion, and, hopefully, get some relief quicker. The second opinion told me I was depressed and put me on Effexor XR. From the beginning I knew it was not the drug for me (I had had great success with Paxil over eight years ago when I stopped drinking) - I was sick, twitching, anxious, etc. I went back to my trusted gp who continued to treat the iron deficiency, but didn't want to mess around with the medication. Luckily, she had a friend who is a pdoc, and I was able to see him about the medication, particularly dosing, etc. He increased the dose twice and urged me to stay with it. Over the six months I was on Effexor, I found myself becoming increasingly apathetic, unmotivated, anxious and even apprehensive (although I am not a panic suffering, I had had one experience that could have been considered a panic attack when on my way to work. I had been suffering from a stomach flu and I knew before I even left for work that I was sick and shouldn't be going in (when getting ready to leave for work, I had to lay down a couple of time because I thought I was going to be sick). Finally, I started looking into natural alternatives and called the pdoc to see if I could add Sam-e and another product because I could continue to exist in the dazed and lethargic way I was. He was not familiar enough with the supplements to agree to usage. But, he did switch me to Celexa. I have now been Effexor free for 8 days, after weaning for two weeks. I have emotions now (not all good at this point. I find myself somewhat angry and negative, which is not my usual state of mind). I don't care at this point because it is just so nice to actually feel again. I know there are a lot of people out there who have had great success with Effexor, and I am happy for them, and somewhat envious. Me, I don't like feeling like a zombie. So, I begin my Celexa journey, and am hoping that it will undo the numbing effects of the Effexor. Sorry for the long message and thanks for listening.Good Luck to you and thanks for writing in. I stopped taking Depakote about 5 days ago and hopefully I will feel some difference. As for the Effexor XR, I am making an appointment with a doc for next week to talk about alternatives..............nothing before Effexor XR ever worked and at this point the benifits I thought I had gotten from Effexor XR for so long have seemed to dwindle or maybe I just don't want to exist in this "Zombie Like" state of mind anymore that is a "Safe Place" for a lot of people who were at the bottom and then feel good just to be at a mediocre "Safe Place." Anyhow, hopefully something will bring these energy levels up to par and rid me of this daily fatigue. I actually just started taking Multivitamin & Minerals (Vitamins) yesterday and strangely I feel a boost in energy..........very strange yet nice. Anyways, good luck with your journey and if you know of any good natural supplements............pass them on over here.
Thanks,
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by jujube on September 17, 2004, at 20:35:28
In reply to Re: My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere, posted by TommyIsland on September 17, 2004, at 19:51:49
> > TommyIsland,
> >
> > My experience on Effexor XR is very similar to yours. Although I had not endured what you have in terms of depression (my heart goes out to you), I would not consider my Effexor XR experience a success story. I became physically ill last year, and was finally diagnosed with iron deficiency in the fall. My energy levels were so low and my mood, usually happy, enthusiastic, motivated, but somewhat anxious, was waning big time. I was being treated for the iron deficiency, but it was a long haul to bring the levels up. I got impatient and decided to seek a second opinion, and, hopefully, get some relief quicker. The second opinion told me I was depressed and put me on Effexor XR. From the beginning I knew it was not the drug for me (I had had great success with Paxil over eight years ago when I stopped drinking) - I was sick, twitching, anxious, etc. I went back to my trusted gp who continued to treat the iron deficiency, but didn't want to mess around with the medication. Luckily, she had a friend who is a pdoc, and I was able to see him about the medication, particularly dosing, etc. He increased the dose twice and urged me to stay with it. Over the six months I was on Effexor, I found myself becoming increasingly apathetic, unmotivated, anxious and even apprehensive (although I am not a panic suffering, I had had one experience that could have been considered a panic attack when on my way to work. I had been suffering from a stomach flu and I knew before I even left for work that I was sick and shouldn't be going in (when getting ready to leave for work, I had to lay down a couple of time because I thought I was going to be sick). Finally, I started looking into natural alternatives and called the pdoc to see if I could add Sam-e and another product because I could continue to exist in the dazed and lethargic way I was. He was not familiar enough with the supplements to agree to usage. But, he did switch me to Celexa. I have now been Effexor free for 8 days, after weaning for two weeks. I have emotions now (not all good at this point. I find myself somewhat angry and negative, which is not my usual state of mind). I don't care at this point because it is just so nice to actually feel again. I know there are a lot of people out there who have had great success with Effexor, and I am happy for them, and somewhat envious. Me, I don't like feeling like a zombie. So, I begin my Celexa journey, and am hoping that it will undo the numbing effects of the Effexor. Sorry for the long message and thanks for listening.
>
>
>
> Good Luck to you and thanks for writing in. I stopped taking Depakote about 5 days ago and hopefully I will feel some difference. As for the Effexor XR, I am making an appointment with a doc for next week to talk about alternatives..............nothing before Effexor XR ever worked and at this point the benifits I thought I had gotten from Effexor XR for so long have seemed to dwindle or maybe I just don't want to exist in this "Zombie Like" state of mind anymore that is a "Safe Place" for a lot of people who were at the bottom and then feel good just to be at a mediocre "Safe Place." Anyhow, hopefully something will bring these energy levels up to par and rid me of this daily fatigue. I actually just started taking Multivitamin & Minerals (Vitamins) yesterday and strangely I feel a boost in energy..........very strange yet nice. Anyways, good luck with your journey and if you know of any good natural supplements............pass them on over here.
>
> Tommy,I, too, have been supplementing. I take B-Complex (100 mg, twice a day), magnesium (250 mg, twice a day) and Omega 3, 6, 9. I have heard a lot of good things about other supplements, including MACA (works on the endocrine system, including thyroid, adrenals, hormones and is an adtaptagen), Co-enzyne Q-10 (apparently an energy booster and good for high cholesteral and high blood pressure) and amino acids. There is a good website for supplementation which is run by the author of a book called "The Way Up From Down" (I think that is the name). The site, if I remember, is www.thewayup.com. All kinds of info on nutritional supplementation. Some supplements should not be taken with antidepressants without physician consultation. My gp did not have a problem with my trying supplementation. I tried L-Tyrosine, but think I over did it and just became very hyper and agitated after 2 weeks. Started out too high. Should have started slower and ramped up. It did, however, do wonders for my energy. You might want to check out the site. I recommended it to my aunt so she could go in armed to the doctor when her and my uncle have their next visit regarding his early stages dementia. Anyways, I seem to be getting very long winded as I age, so I will stop here. Take good care
>
>>
Posted by TommyIsland on September 18, 2004, at 0:12:19
In reply to Re: My Effexor Xr Story: 5 Years of going nowhere, posted by jujube on September 17, 2004, at 20:35:28
> > > TommyIsland,
> > >
> > > My experience on Effexor XR is very similar to yours. Although I had not endured what you have in terms of depression (my heart goes out to you), I would not consider my Effexor XR experience a success story. I became physically ill last year, and was finally diagnosed with iron deficiency in the fall. My energy levels were so low and my mood, usually happy, enthusiastic, motivated, but somewhat anxious, was waning big time. I was being treated for the iron deficiency, but it was a long haul to bring the levels up. I got impatient and decided to seek a second opinion, and, hopefully, get some relief quicker. The second opinion told me I was depressed and put me on Effexor XR. From the beginning I knew it was not the drug for me (I had had great success with Paxil over eight years ago when I stopped drinking) - I was sick, twitching, anxious, etc. I went back to my trusted gp who continued to treat the iron deficiency, but didn't want to mess around with the medication. Luckily, she had a friend who is a pdoc, and I was able to see him about the medication, particularly dosing, etc. He increased the dose twice and urged me to stay with it. Over the six months I was on Effexor, I found myself becoming increasingly apathetic, unmotivated, anxious and even apprehensive (although I am not a panic suffering, I had had one experience that could have been considered a panic attack when on my way to work. I had been suffering from a stomach flu and I knew before I even left for work that I was sick and shouldn't be going in (when getting ready to leave for work, I had to lay down a couple of time because I thought I was going to be sick). Finally, I started looking into natural alternatives and called the pdoc to see if I could add Sam-e and another product because I could continue to exist in the dazed and lethargic way I was. He was not familiar enough with the supplements to agree to usage. But, he did switch me to Celexa. I have now been Effexor free for 8 days, after weaning for two weeks. I have emotions now (not all good at this point. I find myself somewhat angry and negative, which is not my usual state of mind). I don't care at this point because it is just so nice to actually feel again. I know there are a lot of people out there who have had great success with Effexor, and I am happy for them, and somewhat envious. Me, I don't like feeling like a zombie. So, I begin my Celexa journey, and am hoping that it will undo the numbing effects of the Effexor. Sorry for the long message and thanks for listening.
> >
> >
> >
> > Good Luck to you and thanks for writing in. I stopped taking Depakote about 5 days ago and hopefully I will feel some difference. As for the Effexor XR, I am making an appointment with a doc for next week to talk about alternatives..............nothing before Effexor XR ever worked and at this point the benifits I thought I had gotten from Effexor XR for so long have seemed to dwindle or maybe I just don't want to exist in this "Zombie Like" state of mind anymore that is a "Safe Place" for a lot of people who were at the bottom and then feel good just to be at a mediocre "Safe Place." Anyhow, hopefully something will bring these energy levels up to par and rid me of this daily fatigue. I actually just started taking Multivitamin & Minerals (Vitamins) yesterday and strangely I feel a boost in energy..........very strange yet nice. Anyways, good luck with your journey and if you know of any good natural supplements............pass them on over here.
> >
> > Tommy,
>
> I, too, have been supplementing. I take B-Complex (100 mg, twice a day), magnesium (250 mg, twice a day) and Omega 3, 6, 9. I have heard a lot of good things about other supplements, including MACA (works on the endocrine system, including thyroid, adrenals, hormones and is an adtaptagen), Co-enzyne Q-10 (apparently an energy booster and good for high cholesteral and high blood pressure) and amino acids. There is a good website for supplementation which is run by the author of a book called "The Way Up From Down" (I think that is the name). The site, if I remember, is www.thewayup.com. All kinds of info on nutritional supplementation. Some supplements should not be taken with antidepressants without physician consultation. My gp did not have a problem with my trying supplementation. I tried L-Tyrosine, but think I over did it and just became very hyper and agitated after 2 weeks. Started out too high. Should have started slower and ramped up. It did, however, do wonders for my energy. You might want to check out the site. I recommended it to my aunt so she could go in armed to the doctor when her and my uncle have their next visit regarding his early stages dementia. Anyways, I seem to be getting very long winded as I age, so I will stop here. Take good care
> >
> >
> Thanks for the tips and advice..........I've heard a lot of good about the Omega Fish Oils......I think I am def going to get into the all natural supplements and give them a shot...........what do I have to lose? I'll fill u in.......
Thanks,
Tommy!!!!!!!!!!!!1
> >
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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