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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 100 to 124 of 158. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on June 10, 2009, at 19:56:43
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on June 6, 2009, at 5:18:52
Dr. Bob
For the sake of clarity, and to amplify your position on the matter, I feel that it would be desirable for you to comment on the following passage:
> Here's the thing:
>
> I have been confused about this whole affair as it related to my act, including what I thought were civil and carefully chosen words. This represents an opportunity for you to explain explicitly what you want from us. A few years ago, it was your wish to have us work out our differences with what was tantamount to policing ourselves for infractions of civility without the immediate intervention of deputies. I do hope this jars your memory. I thought I was performing in that role. I do regret taking on this role if my memory fails me, and I don't know what else to say but to I apologize in shame, in which case I also owe an apology to Alexandra.From: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090529/msgs/899654.html
I would prefer to receive a PBC with an explanation rather than to be coaxed into giving an apology. I simply need to know what kind of interaction in this case would be a failure of following site guidelines
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 10, 2009, at 20:34:18
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » SLS, posted by Dr. Bob on June 6, 2009, at 4:26:58
Posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 11:20:42
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by Dr. Bob on June 6, 2009, at 4:27:09
~~~~ Bob
A group learns from their leader.....In this case I would ask you if you consistently apologize to posters when they are hurt by administration's actions?
I am not referring to anyone in this thread. I'm talking about the big picture. ~~~~
"Here's an opportunity for everyone to rethink what's been said. Sometimes clarifying intentions or apologizing may be in keeping with what this site is supposed to be:
~~~~a forum for support, communication, friendship and information for persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses.~~~
Bob
Wow! The last paragraph by Bob sure sounds good...I would if administration could swear that is their M.O. in dealing with the persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses?
Posted by twinleaf on June 11, 2009, at 14:35:36
In reply to Apologies, Bob?, posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 11:20:42
That quote which you like was written by me - June 2, above...
twinleaf
Posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 16:15:25
In reply to Apologies, Bob?, posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 11:20:42
Posted by fayeroe on June 12, 2009, at 13:47:01
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by Dr. Bob on June 6, 2009, at 4:27:09
Bob said : Hi, everyone,
Two new ~cases~ are open:....
Court talk? Prison talk? Are we on trial? Going to get a case written up? That leads to segregation from the general population for 14 days. Could be the result of a fight, having contraband, inappropriate sexual remarks, inappropriate sexual activities, stealing, passing "kits", (notes) gambling, trafficking and trading. And it goes on and on.
Maximum segregation is 14 days. Sounds appropriate here since we never have any contraband and we haven't been trafficking and trading, etc. ....(I'll trade you some stamps for a little fun on the side)Pat
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2009, at 15:08:22
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by fayeroe on June 12, 2009, at 13:47:01
> Bob said : Hi, everyone,
>
> Two new ~cases~ are open:....
>
> Court talk? Prison talk? Are we on trial? Going to get a case written up? That leads to segregation from the general population for 14 days. Could be the result of a fight, having contraband, inappropriate sexual remarks, inappropriate sexual activities, stealing, passing "kits", (notes) gambling, trafficking and trading. And it goes on and on.
> Maximum segregation is 14 days. Sounds appropriate here since we never have any contraband and we haven't been trafficking and trading, etc. ....(I'll trade you some stamps for a little fun on the side)
>
> PatPat,
You wrote,[...trade you some stamps...]
What kind of stamps do you have?
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on June 12, 2009, at 15:10:41
In reply to Apologies, Bob?, posted by fayeroe on June 11, 2009, at 11:20:42
>> a forum for support, communication, friendship and information for persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses.~~~
>> Bob
> Wow! The last paragraph by Bob sure sounds good...I would if administration could swear that is their M.O. in dealing with the persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses?
He must have thought that you made an environment where people could recover from 'emotional illnesses' by blocking people who said things that might have made other people feel put down. I wouldn't hold it against him. When have humans in groups done anything nice and good? OK, sometimes, but not often.
Posted by fayeroe on June 12, 2009, at 15:17:56
In reply to Lou's request-mrpoastman » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on June 12, 2009, at 15:08:22
> > Bob said : Hi, everyone,
> >
> > Two new ~cases~ are open:....
> >
> > Court talk? Prison talk? Are we on trial? Going to get a case written up? That leads to segregation from the general population for 14 days. Could be the result of a fight, having contraband, inappropriate sexual remarks, inappropriate sexual activities, stealing, passing "kits", (notes) gambling, trafficking and trading. And it goes on and on.
> > Maximum segregation is 14 days. Sounds appropriate here since we never have any contraband and we haven't been trafficking and trading, etc. ....(I'll trade you some stamps for a little fun on the side)
> >
> > Pat
>
> Pat,
> You wrote,[...trade you some stamps...]
> What kind of stamps do you have?
> Lou
>
>Lou, "trading stamps" is an example of what an offender can do to get in trouble in prison. Stamps are very high in value and can bring as much as $5 each inside.
I caught an offender trading a stamp for three pencils one day. I had to write a "case" on her.
I have Alhzeimer stamps right now. But I need them for mail.......:-)
Posted by fayeroe on June 12, 2009, at 15:20:59
In reply to Re: Apologies, Bob? » fayeroe, posted by Sigismund on June 12, 2009, at 15:10:41
> >> a forum for support, communication, friendship and information for persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses.~~~
>
> >> Bob
>
> > Wow! The last paragraph by Bob sure sounds good...I would if administration could swear that is their M.O. in dealing with the persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses?
>
> He must have thought that you made an environment where people could recover from 'emotional illnesses' by blocking people who said things that might have made other people feel put down. I wouldn't hold it against him. When have humans in groups done anything nice and good? OK, sometimes, but not often.I have to give credit to Twinleaf for the paragraph that I thought Bob had written. I'm a bit dense these days....
However, it would be nice if Bob believed what Twinleaf said.....And I still believe with all my heart that Bob owes dozens of people here apologies for the hurt he has caused.
Anyway, you're cooking with gas today!!! P
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 4:26:32
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on June 6, 2009, at 5:18:52
> I have been confused about this whole affair as it related to my act, including what I thought were civil and carefully chosen words. ... A few years ago, it was your wish to have us work out our differences with what was tantamount to policing ourselves for infractions of civility without the immediate intervention of deputies. ... I thought I was performing in that role.
That's still my wish, but as Kath said, it can be tricky, and it's safer to use the notification button. The downside is, that doesn't help other posters avoid blocks.
Thank you for trying to help others work out their differences. I don't doubt that you chose your words carefully. Still, I consider it possible for them to have led alex to feel accused, and I ask that you not post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks, and sorry about taking so long to follow up,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 4:30:49
In reply to Re: Apologies, Bob? » fayeroe, posted by Sigismund on June 12, 2009, at 15:10:41
> I think that it is really hard to do this type of thing. There's the HUGE potential that in saying something to a fellow-poster, we'll inadvertently upset, insult, hurt them!!! It's not always easy to say clearly what we mean, I think.
>
> For me, I think it will feel MUCH safer to use the "Notify Admin" option, rather than take a chance of saying the 'wrong' thing & taking the lid off a veritable beehive, ending up with a lot of VERY **ssed-off & upset bees!!! & possibly getting stung myself!
>
> KathI agree, it can be very tricky, and it's safer to use the notification button. As I mentioned to Scott, the downside is that it doesn't help other posters avoid blocks.
--
> A group learns from their leader.....In this case I would ask you if you consistently apologize to posters when they are hurt by administration's actions?
>
> I am not referring to anyone in this thread. I'm talking about the big picture.
>
> > a forum for support, communication, friendship and information for persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses.~~~
>
> Wow! The last paragraph ... sure sounds good...I would if administration could swear that is their M.O. in dealing with the persons suffering from, and recovering from, emotional illnesses?
>
> fayeroeGroup members sometimes learn from their leader. Yes, I consistently apologize to posters who may be hurt by my actions. I have the last dozen times, anyway.
Still, as I mentioned to twinleaf, the role of the administrators here isn't to be supportive, at least not directly. But I can understand the wish to be supported by us.
--
> He must have thought that you made an environment where people could recover from 'emotional illnesses' by blocking people who said things that might have made other people feel put down.
>
> SigismundI do think it might help people with emotional illnesses to have an environment where they don't feel put down...
Bob
Posted by SLS on June 23, 2009, at 5:40:02
In reply to Re: please be civil » SLS, posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 4:26:32
> > I have been confused about this whole affair as it related to my act, including what I thought were civil and carefully chosen words. ... A few years ago, it was your wish to have us work out our differences with what was tantamount to policing ourselves for infractions of civility without the immediate intervention of deputies. ... I thought I was performing in that role.
>
> That's still my wish, but as Kath said, it can be tricky, and it's safer to use the notification button. The downside is, that doesn't help other posters avoid blocks.I have continued to give this incident thought. I have trouble getting past certain things, but I understand how my original words to Alexandra could be received as being a stern accusation. I didn't mean it to be stern, but I was judging the tone of her post to Greywolf, and estimating her intent. So, yes, I now see that this was an accusation with the attendant attempt at mind reading. I apologize for this, and I will try to be more cognizant of this in the future.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 8:22:29
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on June 23, 2009, at 5:40:02
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 20:06:39
In reply to Re: Case closed? » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on June 6, 2009, at 9:33:19
> I will withdraw the word " vindicative"
Thanks.
> Where in any of this is a hint of an intent on my part to hurt anyone? ... Once again, there was simply no wish to hurt anyone ... Even though neither instance involved a wish to hurt anyone, they were instantaneously considered to be exactly that, The blocks, too, were instantaneous, without any chance for clarification. Not that it would have mattered. it would have been impossible for me to apologize for something I didn't do.
We didn't mean to imply that you intended to hurt anyone. I'm sorry you felt accused of that. But a post could be uncivil even if not intended to be. And could still be apologized for.
> There is another part of this. I felt publicly shamed and extremely embarrassed by what had happened to me here. I had been making a lot of progress in my therapy, and my depression and anxiety had almost disappeared. However, following this incident, both flared up again, severely, for a number of weeks. It was serious enough to require adding an additional therapy session each week. My analyst, who had been very interested in the possibilities this site offered to people isolated by emotional problems, was stunned and appalled by the harm which he saw occurring to me.
I realize that an administrative action can trigger a poster's battle with depression and anxiety. I'm sorry that happens. That's not our intent, but like your posts, ours can also have unintended consequences.
I trust your analyst was also appalled by the circumstances that led to your earlier experiences with depression and anxiety. He sounds very supportive. This site offers a lot of supportive posters. The role of the administrators, however, isn't to be supportive, at least not directly.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 20:08:17
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2009, at 16:13:44
> I certainly didn't intend for it to be (or resemble) an attack
>
> I went to pains to check that Greywolf was okay about what I had postedThanks for clarifying the intent and following up on the effect of your post. Would you be willing to go one step further and express regret?
> Please don't post to me again.
Change is slow, but one thing that may in fact have changed since you were here before is the procedure for posters to follow if they feel harassed:
> 1. Identify a post by them to you that makes you feel harassed. Use the "notify administrators" button below that post to let me and the deputy administrators know why it makes you feel harassed and, since this should be a last resort, what steps you've already taken to address the situation.
>
> 2. If we're going to support your request, we'll post a response to their post. If not, we'll let you know why not. We may also decide their post isn't civil, but that's a separate issue.
>
> 3. If we ask them not to post to you, but they do, use the "notify administrators" button below their new post to inform us.http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#harassed
> You turned me into a troll Bob.
By hurting you really badly? I'm sorry about that. And hopeful that it'll turn out better this time.
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on June 24, 2009, at 3:47:44
In reply to Re: Case closed? » alexandra_k, posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 20:08:17
> > I certainly didn't intend for it to be (or resemble) an attack
> >
> > I went to pains to check that Greywolf was okay about what I had posted
>
> Thanks for clarifying the intent and following up on the effect of your post. Would you be willing to go one step further and express regret?I regret that Scott jumped in and accused me of having an intention that I did not. I attempted to sort this out with him at the time by telling him how I felt in response to his post and clarifying my intention. I regret that he saw fit to ignore what I had to say and wait for you to jump on in.
> > Please don't post to me again.
> Change is slow, but one thing that may in fact have changed since you were here before is the procedure for posters to follow if they feel harassed:
> > 1. Identify a post by them to you that makes you feel harassed. Use the "notify administrators" button below that post to let me and the deputy administrators know why it makes you feel harassed and, since this should be a last resort, what steps you've already taken to address the situation.
> >
> > 2. If we're going to support your request, we'll post a response to their post. If not, we'll let you know why not. We may also decide their post isn't civil, but that's a separate issue.
> >
> > 3. If we ask them not to post to you, but they do, use the "notify administrators" button below their new post to inform us.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#harassedBlah de blah internet costs $1 for 8 minutes and a page takes 2 minutes to load right now. I'm asking Scott (though not directly addressing him) please pretty pretty please out of the kindness of your heart as a favor to me or to Bob if you prefer don't post to me again. I think things have been working well since I made my request and I don't anticipate a problem. I certainly don't anticipate admin action in a timely fashion so no problem really.
> > You turned me into a troll Bob.
>
> By hurting you really badly? I'm sorry about that. And hopeful that it'll turn out better this time.I won't get my hopes up. Try 'by hurting you really badly over and over and over and over...' and not just me, others as well. Again and again and again.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 24, 2009, at 5:00:13
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 24, 2009, at 3:47:44
> > Thanks for clarifying the intent and following up on the effect of your post. Would you be willing to go one step further and express regret?
>
> I regret that Scott jumped in ... I attempted to sort this out with him at the time by telling him how I felt in response to his post and clarifying my intention. I regret that he saw fit to ... wait for you to jump on in.Waiting to reply can make it easier to be civil...
It would be more apologetic to express regret over how you chose to act yourself. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but would you say you also regret that you posted something that could have led him to feel accused or put down?
I regret that I hurt you really badly over and over and over and over. I didn't intend to.
Bob
Posted by SLS on June 24, 2009, at 6:46:04
In reply to Re: regret » alexandra_k, posted by Dr. Bob on June 24, 2009, at 5:00:13
Hi Doctor.
> It would be more apologetic to express regret over how you chose to act yourself. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but would you say you also regret that you posted something that could have led him to feel accused or put down?
I don't know whom you are referring to here, but I don't feel that I need any kind of excusatory expression from Alexandra. I really didn't feel attacked. Perhaps someone else who stated that they did despite the best of intentions?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 24, 2009, at 6:50:14
In reply to Re: regret » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on June 24, 2009, at 6:46:04
Sorry.
Never mind.
I'm still making it my business when perhaps it shouldn't be.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 24, 2009, at 6:57:13
In reply to Re: regret, posted by SLS on June 24, 2009, at 6:50:14
> Sorry.
>
> Never mind.
>
> I'm still making it my business when perhaps it shouldn't be.
I am REALLY sorry. What I wrote was counterproductive and inflammatory. I didn't mean to restart this whole thing.I apologize to everyone.
- Scott
Posted by Timne on July 2, 2009, at 19:04:28
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2009, at 4:30:49
> Group members sometimes learn from their leader. Yes, I consistently apologize to posters who may be hurt by my actions. I have the last dozen times, anyway.
Hmmm... you apologize but don't ask forgiveness? Or you ask forgiveness but don't repent of your actions?See, the cosmology I encountered as a young human said there is an infinite font of forgiveness in the the universe, but generally, only those who repent of their actions may drink from those healing waters. But that was cosmology, and I took interest in more practical topics, including rhetoric.
In a rhetorical sense, the "apology" you seem to offer seems more related to "apologetics" - the systematic defense of a position. You seem to acknowledge suffering some express to have felt in reaction to your actions, and express sympathy along with an explanation. That's different from an apology like "I know I scratched your car. I'm sorry. I was not paying attention. What do I owe you for the damage?"
The form of apology you cite in your opus here seems more like "I know I scratched your car and I know you truly value your paint job, but my business is so important, now you just have to live with the scratch. Good luck with your feelings."
Could you please elaborate on what you consider to be apology when you apologize to members for your actions here? Is it acknowledgment of error, or is it admission that others suffer in response to your actions but you consider your purpose to be worth their suffering, or is it something else and if so, could you explain more precisely what you do mean when you apologize for your actions here?
Posted by rskontos on July 7, 2009, at 21:42:55
In reply to Re: Apologies » Dr. Bob, posted by Timne on July 2, 2009, at 19:04:28
Excellent post.
Posted by muffled on July 8, 2009, at 14:55:45
In reply to Re: Apologies » Dr. Bob, posted by Timne on July 2, 2009, at 19:04:28
yeah cool post, wunder what Bob'll say....if anything!
Posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 23:40:28
In reply to Re: Apologies » Timne, posted by muffled on July 8, 2009, at 14:55:45
> yeah cool post, wunder what Bob'll say....if anything!
He might surprise me, but I don't think he'll reply. P-docs are trained to believe their silence can be healing. It seems they believe silence highlights the things they do say.
And he's probably savvy enough to realize the risk of explicitly admitting error. To put it in another context, can you imagine how many lawsuits would be filed if doctors started admitting their early efforts to treat "AIDS" with AZT were at least the direct cause (accident) and manner (poisoning) of death in many cases during the '80s, rather than the underlying syndrome symptoms? And his recent informed consent post on twitter ( http://tiny.dr-bob.org/98bm ) demonstrated an ability to recognize and plainly articulate risks associated with online activities. I'm certain he similarly assesses the distinct risks associated with his online activity.
I think like most people, unless he's stuck in his most myopic mindset, he'll find himself contemplating the way people might view his approach to a particular matter and perhaps moderating the approach, once he's seen how the approach can appear to some people.
Thanks for the feedback.
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