![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 51. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2004, at 3:46:18
Hi, everyone,
I just want to say I'm really sorry there's been so much turmoil here recently.
I think Dinah did a great job, especially given the specifics this time. Being a deputy administrator is always voluntary, and I wouldn't blame her if she felt like a break now!
Thanks also to everyone else who did their best, too. I'm biased, of course, but I think this is a great group, and I'm confident that we'll get back on track.
Bob
Posted by zenhussy on July 29, 2004, at 4:04:22
In reply to All the turmoil here recently, posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2004, at 3:46:18
> Hi, everyone,
> I just want to say I'm really sorry there's been so much turmoil here recently.
> I think Dinah did a great job, especially given the specifics this time. Being a deputy administrator is always voluntary, and I wouldn't blame her if she felt like a break now!
> Thanks also to everyone else who did their best, too. I'm biased, of course, but I think this is a great group, and I'm confident that we'll get back on track.
> BobDr. Bob,
Thank you for taking responsibility for the level of tumult it reached here while you were away.
I am most appreciative of your straight forward answer on the block time of the poster(s) in question. It doesn't matter to me the who but I'm much more comforted knowing you are aware of the poster(s) involved and have taken appropriate measures. Thank you.
Dinah deserves time on an island with ripe young men bringing her beverages under a palm tree while she gazes out on an turquoise ocean across a white sand beach after all of this ruckus.
Babble has seen worse but this sure wasn't a pretty scene to watch people go through.
I am appreciative of your efforts to make more of your admin decisions public so that this board can regain some sense of safety here.
--zh
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 29, 2004, at 8:21:56
In reply to All the turmoil here recently, posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2004, at 3:46:18
> Hi, everyone,
>
> I just want to say I'm really sorry there's been so much turmoil here recently.The mice seem to know when the cat's away. Silly mice.
> I think Dinah did a great job, especially given the specifics this time. Being a deputy administrator is always voluntary, and I wouldn't blame her if she felt like a break now!
Yes, thank you so much, Diana.
> Thanks also to everyone else who did their best, too. I'm biased, of course, but I think this is a great group, and I'm confident that we'll get back on track.
>
> BobThanks, Bob. One loose end, though. What happened with Karen_Kay? No formal mention of her block/verification.
Posted by partlycloudy on July 29, 2004, at 8:54:18
In reply to All the turmoil here recently, posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2004, at 3:46:18
Thanks, Dr Bob. It did throw me for a complete loop, and Dinah deserves many kudos for the hard work she did. Glad you're back.
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 29, 2004, at 12:08:08
In reply to All the turmoil here recently, posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2004, at 3:46:18
Yes, I concur that Dinah did an outstanding job. Thank you so much, Dinah! You are wonderful.
Now, what was learned and what will happen to better Babble World from this experience. Will any changes be done to protect Babblers in the future? Hence, some of the best lessons are learned from negative events.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2004, at 17:44:15
In reply to Re: All the turmoil here recently, posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 29, 2004, at 12:08:08
> One loose end, though. What happened with Karen_Kay? No formal mention of her block/verification.
>
> Larry HooverHer block's still there:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040717/msgs/370050.html
----
> Now, what was learned and what will happen to better Babble World from this experience. Will any changes be done to protect Babblers in the future? Hence, some of the best lessons are learned from negative events.
>
> Shadowplayers721Good question! Any suggestions?
Also, is there any way Babblers might be able to protect themselves better next time?
Bob
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 29, 2004, at 22:39:45
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World, posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2004, at 17:44:15
Okay, here are my ideas.
1. I feel there is a need for more deputies. Now, I have read posts that this is a problem. Well, how about these deputies having a different name when they are fully in charge? The deputies will have a name like that denotes their title. In other words, when they are posting a PBC or a block it would be under their title and not their usual posting name. This would allow the deputies to be able to continue to be a poster as easily as a deputy. Their identity would be protected.
2. When you go off line, you or your deputy could post a note that the deputy will be in charge of monitoring the board(s) at that time. This lets all posters know the boards are still being closely monitored and the civility rules still apply. People would have to respect the deputies decisions. I like how the current deputy conducts the decision making process. In concerning the length of blocks, that would be up to you.
3. If you can't find deputies within this board, you could have a friend that shares your beliefs to watch over.
4. (By the way, I am really dreaming on this one. This would help posters feel more self protected.) On each board, each poster can have the power to delete any posts off their screen they don't want or choose to use an ignore option for a particular poster.
In summary, I feel we need more anonymous mini Dr. Bob's while you are not with us to ensure the civility guidelines.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 29, 2004, at 23:30:11
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World, posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 29, 2004, at 22:39:45
I wonder if someone who is wise in group internet process could be a guest poster? Maybe he or she could even review some of the "hot" threads and offer alternatives to those who would like to improve their ability to cope with difficult debates.
Kind of like a coach or mentor? We could ask for individual advice, or they could post a link to some helpful stuff... Kind of like a process consultant.
Just a thought.
gg
Posted by TofuEmmy on July 29, 2004, at 23:54:08
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World, posted by gardenergirl on July 29, 2004, at 23:30:11
I bookmarked this a while ago, and don't recall where I saw it originally. But it has some common sense reminders about quelling those urges to respond quickly to hot topics...wish I could have followed it myself.
http://www.kalimunro.com/article_conflict_online.html
emmy
Posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 8:15:56
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World, posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2004, at 17:44:15
>
> Also, is there any way Babblers might be able to protect themselves better next time?
>
> BobI realize that there will be conflagrations here only as long as we provide kindling. But sometimes I think you expect a lot of us. It's not too hard to ignore or laugh off or hurl expletives at the screen without posting anything when you have a good idea what to expect. But it's a lot harder when you're caught by surprise when you think you're relatively safe.
So my advice to posters protecting ourselves is to *never* feel too safe on board. Always realize that the possibility of "unsupportive" but not "uncivil" responses or comments is there. That Dr. Bob won't protect us from comments that aren't technically uncivil, but will hand out administrative actions to responses that don't meet the civility rules. Remember that what you say here can be used against you here, as well as in real life. And *always* keep that in mind while posting so that no one can take you by surprise. And don't post anything if you think you would be overly distressed to have it treated without respect, as long as the lack of respect is civil.
Be careful. Be guarded.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 8:33:46
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World, posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 29, 2004, at 22:39:45
I'm a bit worried about 'anonymous' deputies. It smacks a bit of big brother to me. And having someone that participates on one hand and can pbc on the other hand? It probably wouldn't be abused, but I think it would make people more suspicious than they already are.
Posted by fayeroe on July 30, 2004, at 9:27:37
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World » Shadowplayers721, posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 8:33:46
I feel that any "deputy" shouldn't be someone that posts here. I don't feel it is possible to be friends with the posters and "watch" them for possible infractions of Bob's off/on again rules. I don't feel that Dinah should be expected to do what he expects of her. I feel that Bob needs to dig deep and offer up some suggestions of his own and let the posters discuss and advise him. After all, we're the ones who are most affected by the hurtful posters. I've never seen Bob offer up anything that was even close to a "feeling" solution. Now, you all can come after me, but that's how I feel....We are the strength of the board, not Bob, not the University, not a higher power.......we're all he has. How's that for "I feel" posting? Again, I don't have as much invested in this site as I have invested in the posters.....I feel that every poster could feel safe here.......if only Bob felt that way.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 13:04:38
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World » AuntieMel, posted by fayeroe on July 30, 2004, at 9:27:37
I was talking about the idea of having an anonymous deputy that was also a poster. I think that would create suspicion in an area we don't have yet.
It seems to me that it is difficult, if not impossible, to come up with an answer to the problem. This is a diverse lot, with different personalities and different needs. And the same person's needs can - and probably will - change over time. I think that is a good thing.
For me it's a good thing when others disagree with me (as long as it's done reasonably) as it let's me see other's perspecitves. Others can have problems with it - for reasons of their own. And that's a good thing, too.
It's alien for me to NOT debate back, and I get the feeling that it's alien for you TO debate back. [note 'debate' not 'argue' - to me they are different, and I hate arguing]
So, how to design a 'port in the storm' for everyone? I'm not sure Solomon has the wisdom to do that.
Posted by fayeroe on July 30, 2004, at 14:23:55
In reply to Re: It's a conundrum, isn't it » fayeroe, posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 13:04:38
> I was talking about the idea of having an anonymous deputy that was also a poster. I think that would create suspicion in an area we don't have yet.
*I'm not talking about an anonymous deputy. I'm talking about someone, visible, that could respond objectively.
>
> It seems to me that it is difficult, if not impossible, to come up with an answer to the problem. This is a diverse lot, with different personalities and different needs. And the same person's needs can - and probably will - change over time. I think that is a good thing.
>
> For me it's a good thing when others disagree with me (as long as it's done reasonably) as it let's me see other's perspecitves. Others can have problems with it - for reasons of their own. And that's a good thing, too.*I wish Bobby shared your take on disagreeing. I think it would make for a much healthier climate here.
>
> It's alien for me to NOT debate back, and I get the feeling that it's alien for you TO debate back. [note 'debate' not 'argue' - to me they are different, and I hate arguing]*I grew up in a household that was filled with arguing, as soon as my parents got up in the morning. I suppose some of that rubbed off on me. I should have taken debate in college. It wasn't offered in my highschool. But I did play on the boy's softball team! :-)
>
> So, how to design a 'port in the storm' for everyone? I'm not sure Solomon has the wisdom to do that.*I don't expect Solomon to come forward for this. This is sorta like going to war in Iraq without a plan. I feel that this site was hatched the same way. No long term plans. No answers, no discussions with the "voters".
>
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 30, 2004, at 14:25:29
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World, posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 29, 2004, at 22:39:45
If you don't like my 4 ideas, 1)anonymous deputies, 2)a friend of Dr. Bob outside Babble 3) post a note of absense with who is in charge 4) ignore poster option/delete posts. Please list your suggestions for Dr. Bob and Babble World. We need ideas. Brainstorming now in session.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 16:51:32
In reply to Re: It's a conundrum, isn't it, posted by fayeroe on July 30, 2004, at 14:23:55
Darn, I hate it when I do that. I type something that seems perfectly clear in *my* head but doesn't really come out that way.
I was initially replying to Shadows "deputies having a different name when they are fully in charge? " when I said I thought it could create suspicion. I wasn't referring to your statement about deputies being non-posters. I didn't make that clear enough in my reply. Sorry. My bad.
I think we all have the same feelings about disagreement in general. It's just that it is difficult to put that into a posting policy.
Jeez, I hate talking about another poster behind his back, but I am not saying anything negative, so hopefully it's ok.
I know that you and fires got off to a bad start, and reading the back-and-forth posting of everyone on those threads it makes sense that you would find it distressing. In fact, I could see that everyone was upset by it. And I think we could all agree that it was getting out of hand. And worse, people I like were in danger of getting blocked.
When I got involved, I was really just wanting to help restore peace, not hurt anyone. I (remenber I like debate) thought I could see something in there that shouldn't just be dismissed. And I think things have calmed down there, and I'm finding him/her to be quite pleasant.
And I have no idea what got me off on that tangent.
Where was I - oh, yeah posting policy. How could that be done? Cursing and putting others down are
easy to spot. Sarcasm is a little tougher - sometimes things read sarcastic when that wasn't intended. But how could disagreeable be quantified or define? Or rudness? It's kind of like pornography: "I can't define it but I know when I see it"Maybe instead of someone to PBC after the fact, we need a couple of thick skinned dedicated 'nice guys' to help (or at least try to help) diffuse things before they get too bad.
Posted by fayeroe on July 30, 2004, at 20:12:19
In reply to Re: It's a conundrum, isn't it » fayeroe, posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 16:51:32
> Darn, I hate it when I do that. I type something that seems perfectly clear in *my* head but doesn't really come out that way.Jeez, I hate talking about another poster behind his back, but I am not saying anything negative, so hopefully it's ok.
>
> I know that you and fires got off to a bad start, and reading the back-and-forth posting of everyone on those threads it makes sense that you would find it distressing. In fact, I could see that everyone was upset by it. And I think we could all agree that it was getting out of hand. And worse, people I like were in danger of getting blocked.Actually, unless I posted in my sleep, AM, I don't think I have ever engaged with fires. I may have commented about the firestorm that came from that, but I don't post on psychology. I did once or twice about three or four months ago but not lately. No reason to. I think you have me confused with another poster.
>
> >
>
Posted by slinky on July 31, 2004, at 12:09:00
In reply to Re: It's a conundrum, isn't it » fayeroe, posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 16:51:32
said the apostrophe to the semi colon
Keeping it admin
()()
(';')
(")(")
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 31, 2004, at 15:08:54
In reply to It's a murdnunoc in an administration style, posted by slinky on July 31, 2004, at 12:09:00
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 31, 2004, at 15:35:57
In reply to Re: No, I think it's more of a noromyxo (nm) » slinky, posted by Larry Hoover on July 31, 2004, at 15:08:54
From what was given as ideas to prevent what happened recently, what do you feel would be best?
Posted by TofuEmmy on July 31, 2004, at 21:28:30
In reply to Dr. Bob ..., posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 31, 2004, at 15:35:57
I didn't follow everything that happened, so please forgive me if I missed something, but I think part of the problem was that Dinah can't block a user at the IP level, so a naughty user can just keep creating new IDs and keep kicking up a raucous. Perhaps you could give her a phone number to call when she suspect this is happening, and some computer operator could help with this? He/she could block the IP address or contact the ISP or whatever it is you do.
This would allow Babblers to still feel anonymous, but would allow Dinah to get help when you are not around. I'm making the assumption that there are operators around who assist with things like job submission, backups, etc. Can these people be asked to help with this task?
Thanks. em
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2004, at 15:17:01
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob ...and also, posted by TofuEmmy on July 31, 2004, at 21:28:30
> 1. I feel there is a need for more deputies.
I think that would be nice, too. Anybody who wants to volunteer can either post something here or email me.
> how about these deputies having a different name when they are fully in charge?
>
> Shadowplayers721> I'm a bit worried about 'anonymous' deputies. It smacks a bit of big brother to me. And having someone that participates on one hand and can pbc on the other hand? It probably wouldn't be abused, but I think it would make people more suspicious than they already are.
>
> AuntieMelI agree, it makes things more complicated when people don't know who's who. I'd rather deputies were able to deal with conflict.
> 2. When you go off line, you or your deputy could post a note that the deputy will be in charge of monitoring the board(s) at that time. This lets all posters know the boards are still being closely monitored and the civility rules still apply. People would have to respect the deputies decisions.
I worry that it would be asking for trouble if I announced that I wasn't going to be around. The civility rules always apply, and people should always respect the deputies' decisions.
> 3. If you can't find deputies within this board, you could have a friend that shares your beliefs to watch over.
>
> Shadowplayers721> I feel that any "deputy" shouldn't be someone that posts here. I don't feel it is possible to be friends with the posters and "watch" them for possible infractions... We are the strength of the board, not Bob, not the University, not a higher power...
>
> fayeroeMy feeling has been that posters (1) are the ones who are most familiar with the "culture" here and (2) are indeed the strength of the board, so it makes sense to rely on them.
> 4. On each board, each poster can have the power to delete any posts off their screen they don't want or choose to use an ignore option for a particular poster.
>
> Shadowplayers721This keeps coming up. What's the difference between deleting it and just not clicking on it?
----
> I wonder if someone who is wise in group internet process could be a guest poster? Maybe he or she could even review some of the "hot" threads and offer alternatives to those who would like to improve their ability to cope with difficult debates.
>
> gardenergirl> I bookmarked this a while ago, and don't recall where I saw it originally. But it has some common sense reminders about quelling those urges to respond quickly to hot topics...wish I could have followed it myself.
>
> http://www.kalimunro.com/article_conflict_online.html
>
> TofuEmmyI'm in touch with Kali and others who are interested in online groups. The FAQ already links to her article:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
She does have a kind of "reverse psychology" board, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040717/msgs/370329.html
But I haven't been able to figure out how that would work here. I'll invite her to be a guest expert, that's a good idea.
----
> my advice to posters protecting ourselves is to *never* feel too safe on board. Always realize that the possibility of "unsupportive" but not "uncivil" responses or comments is there.
>
> DinahAnd of course of uncivil ones...
----
> Maybe instead of someone to PBC after the fact, we need a couple of thick skinned dedicated 'nice guys' to help (or at least try to help) diffuse things before they get too bad.
>
> AuntieMelAll thick-skinned dedicated nice guys (and gals) are free to try to help diffuse things at any stage! Some do already, of course. That's a nice example of relying on each other.
----
> I think part of the problem was that Dinah can't block a user at the IP level, so a naughty user can just keep creating new IDs and keep kicking up a raucous. Perhaps you could give her a phone number to call when she suspect this is happening, and some computer operator could help with this?
There are support people who help with technical problems, but they don't get involved at this level. She did suggest that I add a way to turn off new registrations, which I thought was a good idea (and shouldn't be too hard to do).
And of course it's possible to connect from different IP addresses...
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on August 1, 2004, at 21:57:08
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World, posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2004, at 15:17:01
I worry that it would be asking for trouble if I announced that I wasn't going to be around. The civility rules always apply, and people should always respect the deputies' decisions.
**you did leave and not notify us and all hell broke loose with some posters.......I think knowing that you are gone puts people on notice that they are on their own.....(they kept asking for you and of course you didn't show up).......perhaps some strength would come from realizing that some self-policing was necessary. I still don't understand why people continue to read posts by someone who is disruptive. Ignoring a problem will actually sometimes cause it to go away. And Martha would say that's a good thing.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 2, 2004, at 7:19:51
In reply to Re: what will happen to better Babble World » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on August 1, 2004, at 21:57:08
> I still don't understand why people continue to read posts by someone who is disruptive.
IMO, that's a significant factor.
People remind each other to avoid this board sometimes, maybe they could remind each other to avoid posts by certain people, too? It might be another way to support each other and to help "diffuse things before they get too bad".
Other suggestions?
Bob
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on August 2, 2004, at 19:21:23
In reply to Re: continuing to read, posted by Dr. Bob on August 2, 2004, at 7:19:51
I feel people continue to read for the same reasons that people turn and look at a car wreck on the highways. It's human nature. They want to know what's going on. There will always be those that challenge the civility rules more so when they think Dr. Bob isn't watching. I think the previous events spoke for themselves. When Dr. Bob came back, the waters calmed down for the time being.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.