Posted by bleauberry on July 15, 2009, at 20:14:40
In reply to Attn: Larry Hoover or other biochemists, posted by FourFeathers on July 13, 2009, at 12:34:00
I have had your tests and lots of other ND tests. In the real world, none were helpful in guiding treatment. We are talking genetic profile tests, methylation tests, fatty acid tests, vitamin and mineral status tests, neurotransmitter tests, thyroid, on and on. Too many. Their suggested direction of treatment were wrong.
Even in clinical studies on rats, it has been shown that rats with deficient noradrenaline function responded equally across the board to either serotonin agents or noradrenaline agents. Those were obviously not the results they were looking for, but that's what happened. Their theories of finding a way to predict which meds to choose were invalidated.
Serotonin deficient mice responded to either serotonin meds and noradrenaline meds equally.
Me, my serotonin metabolites were extremely low, most others fairly normal, epinephrine high, gaba high. Serotonin herbs, 5htp, tryptophan, ssris, etc, all looked like obvious good choices. In reality, the best choices by a long shot were noradrenaline things. In fact, despite my apparent deep deficiency in serotonin, any treatment involving even tiny amounts of serotonin quickly deepened my symptoms. Serotonin is not dysthymia-friendly in my opinion.
Noradrenaline aids, with noradrenaline already high to begin with, ended up being excellent for me. Just the opposite of what would have been expected based on test results. My theoretical reasoning to explain it involves feedback loop mechanisms.
Most people entering an ND office probably do have adrenal fatigue. My opinion. Most people who have symptoms but have never heard of adrenal fatigue, and many people attending pbabble, probably have adrenal fatigue. I believe it is a common epidemic as part of the fast paced stressed world with unfriendly food choices.
It is easily measurable, unlike the neurotransmitters. Ask for the Adrenal Stress Index test by Diagnost-Tecs labs. It collects saliva four times over a 24 hour period to see what your cortisol is doing. That is far more useful in guiding treatment than anything else I know of, except definitively concretely without out even a speck of doubt ruling out Lyme disease.
Has the ND looked in your mouth for silver fillings? That is a serious issue to consider too. Long story, but believe me, I know.
Has the ND given you challenge doses of Oregeno Oil, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Cat's Claw, Wormwood/Black Walnut Hull extract? Those would be taken to see if you become flulike or feel worse in a few days...malaise, aches, unwell. If so, that is significantly diagnostic of hidden infection. Either yeast (Candida), Lyme, or Lyme-like cousins, depending on the herb that was killing it. The yuck feeling is the mass die-off called a Herx reaction. It is the easiest quickest surest way to find hidden critters that lab tests can't. Overgrowth of gut yeast is in my opinion epidemic due to the high sugar content of typical diets, and a common symptom is low level depression or dysthymia.
Lots of things to look at. But honestly, simpler is better. Adrenal Stress Index, trials of various pathogen killing herbs, and trials of various mood herbs, is the only way to really know which direction to go.
I found none of the neuro precursors such as 5htp or tyrosine helpful. And in the real world outside of books and internet hype, hardly anyone does. 5hpt does improve sleep. Tyrosine can give a burst of energy if not used all the time. I think they are widely talked about based on theory, hope, and dreams, but not realworld reliable duplicateable results.
Of the herbals for dysthymia, the best I ever had was St Johns Wort Kira brand, the same one used in clinical studies, availbable in some local stores and by internet mailorder. Some people do best on cheap low hyperforin brands while others do best on expensive high hyperforin brands. The hypericin content they are measured by doesn't seem to be of much signifance. The various brands are similar, but almost as different as SSRIs are from one another. If one brand doesn't work, at least two others need to be tried before concluding SJW is not helpful. Doses should range from 150mg to 900mg, because people respond best to a certain given dose in that range, doing worse at a dose that is too high or too low for them. The bottle will say 3 300mg pills a day. That is bogus. The instructions should say, whatever you feel best at after a few weeks, which might be as low as 150mg or 300mg.
Adrenal fatigue is usually appoached first with herbal things like the Ginsengs, Ashwaganda, Astragulus, and a variety of others. I found them useless as most people do. Licorice actually extends the life of your existing cortisol and is helpful for many people. Adrenal cortex extracts are helpful for many people, with Isocort being a top favored brand. For some people like me, none of these things were good, and only low doses (1.25mg-5mg) of the real stuff...prescription hydrocortisone...to replace the missing cortisol, was of major benefit.
Adrenals and thyroid go together. So if adrenals are sluggish, thyroid has probably turned itself down too in order to stay in balance. Which would call for a small dash of Armour Thyroid, T3, or T4. Or, time and food choices will revive things. Lab tests for thyroid are not very useful except as a reference point. Clincal symptoms are what matter.
Foods should be: Mostly veggies, some fruits low in sugars, no or low sugars or sugar substitutes (Stevia is the only allowed one), low or no caffeine, proteins from meats, eggs, beans, very few breads, pastas, and similar carbs, lots and lots of purified water.
Outside of the naturals, the most potent and tame dysthymia destroyer I have ever known in personal trials of just about any med you can think of is low dose Nortriptyline. By low I'm talking 5mg to 50mg. Side effects in the first week are gone by week 4.
I hope some of this is helpful to you.
poster:bleauberry
thread:906544
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20090410/msgs/906944.html