Posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 12:48:48
In reply to Re: Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions » violette, posted by PartlyCloudy on July 23, 2010, at 11:33:19
Partly Cloudy,
People have pointed out how others (perhaps considering me one of them) come here to complain or "fuss" over Dr. Bob. I was trying to figure out why so many people come to the Admin. forum, or repeatedly post here. Many of whom used to post on the other forums but end up here in the end...and don't, or rarely use other parts of the forum despite having had used them in the past.
Well, so I started this thread; and after reading your reply, I think I know what it is...I realized the interactions remind me of gaslighting (denying a person's reality-read article excerpts below):
Scenerio
==============================================
Poster: I feel uncomfortable with Facebook/Twitter fo reasons x, y, z...Dr. Bob: In theory, anyone can cut and paste your posts to Twitter and Facebook already
Poster: But no one does this
Dr. Bob: It's the same concept, anyone can do this; it's like Google
Poster: But it has driven people away from the forum
Dr. Bob: It will bring you more support
==============================================
Poster: I feel uncomfortable with a point system-it will lead me to feel badly about myselfDr. Bob: The point system will help you-members will be encouraged to be more supportive
Poster: But I think it will discourage me/us from posting
Dr. Bob: It will encourage others to be more supportive. Be the change you wish to see...
==============================================And I don't think Dr. Bob would be intentionally emotionally abusive, that's not it. I just think the way he interacts with us sometimes parallels gaslighting.
If it's happened to you before, PC, maybe you could relate...It's happened to me, and it is one of the most awful types of emotional abuse. It has the potential to make any sane individual 'feel crazy' if it continues. I think many don't recognize this concept w/o having the personal experience..but am thinking it's part of the reason people continue to post on Admin.-elements of gaslighting stirs emotions and reactions in people here, whether they know it or not? It really does make you feel crazy...but it's so insidious, often difficult to recognize.
So that's my investigation; I think this conclusion-whether right or wrong-provides me personal validation that I am not crazy, and explains to myself why I've posted on the Adminstration Forum. It's actually a relief to recognize this...
And it's not the same as having this happen to you in a relationship--although there are relationships here, it would not have such an intense affect as an IRL relationship...but there is still effect.
So my experience with gaslighting-before I recognized the similarities of feelings in the past--led to asking Dr. Bob to be more open...
I would welcome his saying, for example, "A point system might be a good site feature to research, testing a point system could pilot future research projects. In the end, if research determines this effect has caused more support, posters will benefit. It could be an interesting feature to analyze, to see the effects on support, so let's try it and see how it turns out. For right now, I'd like to do a trial to see if this could be something I'd want to research in the future..."
That's it. The continously telling posters the things they think will not benefit them--will benefit them--denies a person's reality. This causes frustration-either conscious or unconscious; thus, people get upset and post here more often. Although it may effect others more due to past experience, it truly is something that will make anyone-including the sanest-feel crazy or perhaps frustrated...
As to expectations, I think I've just been responding to this effect similar to what's recommended by the article-standing my ground...
"Sorry, Mom, but you're the one who owes me an apology....If our three gaslightees were able to take this attitude, there would be no gaslighting. Maybe their gaslighters would still behave badly, but their behavior would no longer have such a pernicious effect."
Well I think I've said all I need to say. This was an eye-opening experience. Of course, if this has personally happened to you before from a loved one, whether you recognize it or not, it might affect you more. Either way, the sanest of people can be effected by gaslighting-another person denying your reality.
I don't care if people criticize me for posting this. I learned alot from my conclusions, and maybe others will appreciate pointing this out. And again, I don't think Dr. Bob would purpose do this-I just hope he takes note of this concept...Anyway, therapy has helped me recognize that I am a reasonable person-to stop questioning myself so much. I feel strongly this is the case, whether or not people agree. And I am certain I have no ill intentions whatsover in stating this here, as my unconscious has become part of my conscious...
And personally, my weekly psychotherapy works every day of the week (I really get my $ worth) and this realization was therapeutic for me, despite some may view it negatively. Maybe Dr. Bob will look into this? Maybe others will recognize this may affect them? Well I guess some people will be happy that I have said all I need to say...And that's ok with me too, as it's been a very insightful experience. :)
Gaslighting:
Gaslighting is the systematic attempt by one person to erode anothers reality. This is done by telling them that what they are experiencing isnt so and, the gradual giving up on the part of the other person.
"You know youre in a full blown Gaslight Effect when you find yourself second guessing your own reality; when youre unsure of what you really think and feel. Why? Because youve allowed someone else to define your reality for you. Invariably, this leads to being told what to think and how to think. And then in turn, youre told who you are. Youre molded into an entity that someone else deems worthy of his or her love, affection; attention."
http://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/the-sad-art-of-gaslighting/
"If you think things like this can't happen to you, think again. Gaslighting is when someone wants you to do what you know you shouldn't and to believe the unbelieveable. It can happen to you and it probably already has."
"Gaslighting is an insidious form of emotional abuse and manipulation that is difficult to recognize and even harder to break free from. That's because it plays into one of our worst fears - of being abandoned - and many of our deepest needs: to be understood, appreciated, and loved."
"But when he wears the new clothes to Sunday dinner at his parents' home, his mother bursts out laughing. "Oh, Mitchell, that outfit is all wrong for you - you look ridiculous," she says. "Please, dear, the next time you go shopping, let me help you." When Mitchell feels hurt and asks his mother to apologize, she shakes her head sadly. "I was only trying to help," she says. "And I'd like an apology from you for that tone of voice."
"Mitchell is confused. He liked his new clothes - but maybe he does look ridiculous. And has he really been rude to his mother?"
"Katie, Liz, and Mitchell have one thing in common: they're all suffering from the Gaslight Effect. The Gaslight Effect results from a relationship between two people: a gaslighter, who needs to be right in order to preserve his own sense of self and his sense of having power in the world; and a gaslightee, who allows the gaslighter to define her sense of reality because she idealizes him and seeks his approval. Gaslighters and gaslightees can be of either gender, and gaslighting can happen in any type of relationship. But I'm going to call gaslighters "he" and gaslightees "she," since that's the pairing I most often see in my practice. I'll explore a variety of relationships - with friends, family, bosses, and colleagues - but the male-female romantic pairing will be my major focus."
"For example, Katie's gaslighting boyfriend insists that the world is a dangerous place and that Katie's behavior is inappropriate and insensitive. When he feels stressed or threatened, he has to be right about these issues, and he has to get Katie to agree that he is. Katie values the relationship and doesn't want to lose Brian, so she starts to see things from his point of view. Maybe the people they meet are laughing at her. Maybe she is being flirtatious. Gaslighting has begun."
"Likewise, Liz's boss insists that he really cares about her and that any concerns she has are because she's paranoid."
"The problem is, gaslighting is insidious. It plays on our worst fears, our most anxious thoughts, our deepest wishes to be understood, appreciated, and loved. When someone we trust, respect, or love speaks with great certainty - especially if there's a grain of truth in his words, or if he's hit on one of our pet anxieties - it can be very difficult not to believe him. And when we idealize the gaslighter - when we want to see him as the love of our life, an admirable boss, or a wonderful parent - then we have even more difficulty sticking to our own sense of reality. Our gaslighter needs to be right, we need to win his approval, and so the gaslighting goes on."
http://www.enotalone.com/article/16906.html
"The term derives from the 1938 stage play Gas Light (originally known as Angel Street in the United States), and the 1940 and 1944 film adaptions. The plot concerns a husband who attempts to drive his wife to insanity by manipulating small elements of their environment, and insisting that she is mistaken or misremembering when she points out these changes. The title stems from the husband's subtle dimming of the house's gas lights, which she accurately notices and which the husband insists she's imagining."
"Gaslighting" has been used colloquially, since at least the mid 1970s, to describe psychologically upsetting manipulations of the type depicted in the play and film: In her 1980 book The Best Kept Secret: Sexual Abuse of Children[1] Florence Rush summarizes George Cukor's 1944 film version of Gas Light, and writes, "even today the word [gaslight] is used to describe an attempt to destroy another's perception of reality."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
Changing expectations:
"Of course, Katie, Liz, and Mitchell all have other choices. Katie might ignore her boyfriend's negative remarks, ask him to stop making them, or as a last resort, break up with him. Liz could say to herself, "Wow, this new boss is a piece of work. Well; maybe that smarmy charm has fooled everyone else in this company - but not me!" Mitchell might reply calmly, "Sorry, Mom, but you're the one who owes me an apology." All of them could decide that, on some basic level, they are willing to live with their gaslighters' disapproval. They know they are good, capable, lovable people, and that's all that matters."
"If our three gaslightees were able to take this attitude, there would be no gaslighting. Maybe their gaslighters would still behave badly, but their behavior would no longer have such a pernicious effect."
poster:violette
thread:955588
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955618.html