Posted by spoc on June 12, 2004, at 15:07:15
In reply to Re: Curiousity--Exactly what I would ask » TofuEmmy, posted by shar on June 12, 2004, at 3:29:24
I don't know if this is seen as related to the other thread here on Admin, but maybe due to timing that's likely. And in my archive reading I haven't seen a lot of actual legalities cited so I think maybe the larger issue of objecting in general is being tied in here too. So just in case, I wanted to comment on the fears of shut-down being expressed here, but I am referring only to the broad subject of complaints and how they may or may not feel to Dr. Bob, not legalities. (Written prior to Hoover verdict, if that has any relevance.)
I give Dr. Bob more credit than to close down just because people sometimes ask about things he isn't denying do happen, and has apologized for to some extent (leading us simply to respond with "Ok, so will you do something about it?"). And that even if he hadn't admitted, would still be hard to show as groundless allegations. Regardless of any of that, he knows many people need and love this place and I'm sure he gets a lot out of it too on probably several levels. So I see him as big enough of a person to tolerate and balance the fact that a minority will always be willing to speak out.
Even if it does *feel* unpleasant, as do many things we each have to face in our lives, I give him more credit than to take the fact that many aren't bothered by these things and are content across the board; combine it with the fact that the "conscientious objectors" do have a point (or don't, for that matter); and then determine that what he needs to do is shut down over the inconvenience of occasional isolated debates.
I just hope we are all using self-awareness as to what drives our assessments, to avoid resenting each other's positions when it isn’t necessary or logical. It actually doesn't bother me for someone to say "Ok, maybe that part *is* wrong but I need this place so I just don't focus on it, or even the right or wrong of choosing not to focus on it;" or "Right or wrong, it just doesn't bother me." Or, if the reality is that they have enough stress to deal with already without looking into things that might bring them down further, then that too is completely understandable!
But there's a difference in what is being addressed or seen as the subject there. I see less detailed counter-analysis of what actually happened in the types of situations being discussed at these times than I do broad responses about objecting in itself or stating that it's good to implement limits. But those are neither the issues at hand nor the generally accepted way of adjudicating specific matters (and the usefulness of having limits is rarely what's in dispute).
The point is, we should be aware of what actually drives us, keep our own reactions separated from our feelings about each other. It's long been factored into PBC issues that it is ok to feel differently about things, but not to tell others that their position is wrong or doesn't exist. (Those disliking objections shouldn't feel like that party, as they can take a lot of support in the fact that most here are not participating. And if they ever want to discuss something specific to figure it all out, that is always available.)
There are a lot of things in my own life and in the world that are probably worth protesting/caring about, but I just don't. Things that * I* am able to completely tune out, right or wrong, because they just don't bother me. Some would surely be irritated if they knew what those things were. But we don't choose how those things feel to us, and we can’t be impassioned by or act on *every* cause anyway. I merely like for people to examine what is going into their position or lack of one... when the reality might be that they just personally aren't bothered by a particular problem or are afraid of how it might impact something that is more important to them; not that the cause itself is invalid or that those who participate are doing wrong.
If we could know the full range of each other's subjective passionate beliefs the shoe would often and easily end up on the other foot regarding what is ok to overlook or not overlook. But we all deserve our opinions and processes. It would feel like the Twilight Zone if objectors themselves were resented, because of the fact that few of us do advocate or turn a blind eye to people being treated unfairly in 3-D life. At least in our hearts we don't, even when we don't have it in us to act. It would be sad if this kind of thing changes people's feelings about each other, when underneath it all I'm wagering we share so many of the same principles of right and wrong. Something here is just keeping us from being able to see it.
If someone came to Babble lamenting a situation in their environment where some were being treated unfairly, they would be totally supported. And if they were talking about standing up for others -- and therefore risking alienation themselves -- when the thing wasn't even happening to them, they would be applauded. If they posited that maybe they should just be able to not care because it wasn’t happening to them or didn’t happen often or to most, it would be said vehemently that the fact that they *do* care says wonderful things about them. Or, even if they were advised to try to let it go for their own sake, it would never be said that they had shown a bad quality or done a bad thing.
Also, much of what it feels like to be one who is driven from the heart to object sometimes must parallel how almost everyone who comes here feels about how "normal" people in their lives may seem to be looking at them and wishing they'd "just" relax and flow with things. I'm guessing we all feel bad at those times. What wouldn't most of us give to be *able* to just let things roll off our backs like everyone else seems to be doing?
It's not quite the same here, when speaking out on pretty established principles is involved instead. It just points out something people may not have thought of -- that being on this end when hassles serious enough to lead to shut-down are proposed can be really upsetting too. As can the board being seen as infiltrated by 'hostility' when any number of other kinds of clashes arise, irrespective of what's actually being said. Even when what's being said is meant to defend and *support* the community. I imagine time makes it much easier to tune out, but that's not necessarily a good thing. That's why "fresh blood" is always invaluable to causes.
So couldn't a balance be struck in how the objecting itself is viewed, which clarifies that some fear they could lose this place because of it; but not that it means what others are feeling or doing is wrong? And btw, if I knew or thought that to be a risk -- if that was really what it came down to -- I *would* indeed put those interests ahead of whatever my own were. But it's not the same as having been out of line, and that's an important difference.
I think Dr. Bob has largely always held the key to the impressions of whether objecting is acceptable. If he was the type, or thought it workable, for him to interact more and demonstrate when he at least realizes that an issue is credible (and here -- which speaks in nature to other times -- it does seem he believes that), the confusion and/or outrage at recurring criticism of him would most likely give way to applauding him for admitting or being open to facing mistakes. In his silence, it may be assumed he's upset, but that may very well not be true. Like in the Hoover thread, he finally said that what was appearing on the thread *was* what he had had in mind. We had all thought that his sitting back and just watching was making a statement in itself, but he's saying that wasn't the case.
Anyway, I know nothing about the legalities here but as far as other recurring objections, I think people can relax. That this is only a matter of whether Dr. Bob would ever be comfortable delegating or amending policies, not that it's any kind of deal breaker. How could he be likely to disregard the great overall comfort, joy and education people (probably including himself) get out of this place and just pull the plug. He even knows full well that he doesn't *have* to change, there will always be a good size population here that will largely thank and richly reward him.
I can't imagine that this is the stuff of shut downs. Such hastiness in the face of a ton of love yet occasional, small, legitimate uprisings would be immature and almost punitive; so if you believe in him as a person, you will likely conclude that he is above that.
poster:spoc
thread:354568
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040527/msgs/356098.html