Posted by wendy b. on June 24, 2002, at 9:11:56
In reply to Re: I still don't understand the rule, either, posted by Dr. Bob on June 23, 2002, at 0:56:23
Dear Bob,
I think Shar's post sums it up beautifully, and I can't do any better than that. But I will answer some of your questions/comments...
> > I think that this is just silly. Your calling me unsupportive, of a concept, not a person (read the thread again), is really off-base.
>
> Here's what you said again:
>
> > > if people can't deal with the word shit, they should reassess their tolerance levels.
>
> I took that as not so supportive of people would can't deal with the word. Are you saying it's just unsupportive of the concept of not being able to deal with the word? Or of a group of people rather than a particular person?
>Bob, this doesn't mean I'm being unsupportive at all, and I challenge your assessment of it as that. I meant the conceit - "people-who-can't-deal-with-the-word-shit" - which isn't a particular group of people. It's an imagined group, not real people. If I had said, "Gee, MaryLou, you really ought to assess your tolerance levels," cuz she had written in to protest swearing, then that's not supportive. But no one did that.
It's a suggestion that the language we use on a day-to-day basis will often include some "potentially" offensive stuff to SOMEONE. So MAYBE there is someone on this board who might be offended, but MAYBE not. And anyway, why haven't they spoken up here? If they did, and then we went ahead and wrote (spoke) like that anyway, I could see a problem... But why create a problem where the possibility exists (strongly) that it's a non-issue?
Many religious people can't deal with "using the lord's name in vain," for example. But the exclamation "Oh my God!" peppers our daily conversations, and it would be impossible to ban it from common parlance. I hear elementary-school children say it in my classrooms every day. Should I chastize them for it? No, it's acceptable speech at schools. Maybe not a Catholic school, but then I'd make another decision based on the specific environment we were in.
Now, on the other hand, if my schoolchildren said "Shit!" when they couldn't get the Elmer's glue out of the bottle because the caps were plugged up, then I'd say something. Cuz they're kids, and the setting isn't appropriate. But Bob, we're adults here...
> > Loads of people would tell you that I am at least as supportive of others as anybody else, in real life and on this Board... I am trying hard not to take your remarks as a put-down.
>
> I was referring *only* to that one statement. I didn't mean anything more than that, I apologize if I came across that way.Well, yes it did, that's why I said that.
> > It takes a lot to offend me. Because I am SO TOLERANT, I guess. I wish you could be tolerant, too, of reasonable expression.
>
> OK, it takes a lot to offend you. In fact, I think it takes a lot to offend me, too. The thing is, it's not just us two here.I realize that. The other people who have taken the time to post on this thread somehow agree with me, though, and they're other people besides us two. And as I said above, if there ARE people who have been offended, why don't they speak up? Bob, have you ever seen a post (I haven't but you may have) that protests the use of the word shit, or the f-word, etc.? I'm curious.
> > I really can't understand why you are actively choosing to stifle expression. The books of creative literature you're reading on the Book Club forum are written by authors who use those awful "bad" words judiciously. Not all the time, but not never, either.
>
> I'm choosing to stifle certain forms of expression because I want people to feel welcome here. Those books have a different goal than this site.But in the literature example, I'm talking about a reflection in cultural expression of the real language that real people use. Of course I'm not saying the purposes of fiction and the purposes of this board are the same. But if "bad" language is valorized in one setting on this very site, and then barred from use on another setting, I don't see how that makes sense.
>
> > And does the fact that I don't happen to agree with someone (like you, in this rare instance) mean that I'm not being supportive of him? This is something I don't get either.
>
> I suppose in a way it's not supportive, but the other main goal is education, so different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged.OK, that's good. Because I don't want it to seem like I'm not supportive of you, even if I strongly disagree with you.
> > And I know I can take my bad words and use somebody else's web site. But I'd rather be able to express myself (within reason) without censoring myself
>
> Expressing oneself within reason means sometimes censoring oneself.Well, Bob, it's that phrase "within reason" that is causing us problems. I put it in there on purpose, because our reasoning might differ. I believe I can express myself within reason by saying: "Oh, that's shitty" to someone who lost their job and posted it to PSB, for example. But I don't believe it's within reason to use the word shit in an epithet or in name-calling...
> > What about Dreamer's sex-escapades?* Isn't that as offensive as swearing? Why don't you censor discussions of/about sex, like the one we had about "Good Sex for Moms, " and women who were having a hard time getting turned on? We got pretty graphic, of necessity. The differences seem to be a little tricky to discern.
>
> The difference there is between *topics* that might offend others and *language* that might.Yes, I agree, but as I stated to Dreamer in the post above: logically speaking, an offensive TOPIC is probably MORE (not less) offensive to this supposed Someone-Who-Might-Be-Offended, than the occasional well-placed swear word would ever be. Imagine a Newcomer-Who-Might-Be-Offended who came to the site and saw the thread "Great Sex for Moms" or "Having trouble Getting Off." If they WERE to be offended, wouldn't a "racey" topic turn them off to the site more than a single word?
Anyway, food for thought...
Wendy
poster:wendy b.
thread:5720
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020510/msgs/5763.html