Psycho-Babble Social Thread 1118121

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price fixing cartels?

Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2022, at 20:44:07

I don't understand. That is to say, I don't follow the complaint. I don't understand the nature of the compliant.

Let's see...

There is FAFSA funding, I think you call it. Federal funding. To help people pay for College. And there are eligibility criterion on that... And then there is a way of having it written off if you agree to certain things... And there were (legitimate) complaints, I thought, of people being set up to believe there wouldn't be problems with them having it written off... If they agreed to choose to work for a few (specified number of) years in certain jobs in certain states or with certain (likely federal) employees or...

There was this thing about them not being able to get into the jobs they were told they could get into (so them not being able to make un-interrupted payments, or similar). Or maybe the problem was that the people who were employed to tell them about what they needed for eligibility were mis-informing them... So, anway, there were legitimate (in some cases) issues that some people were experiencing with the Federal funding for college thing...

But that's different from people going to private schools, I thought... I mean... I didn't think the people going to private colleges were eligible for FAFSA funding... Actually... Maybe they are...

Price fixing?

Hrmmm.... Let's see... In NZ.. The government sets the maximum increase the Universities are allowed to charge domestic (at least) students. I would imagine that the state and / or federal governments would similarly fix (as in limit the maximum) for public schools. I would think that private schools are subject to no restrictions. I don't see why they can't charge anything they like...

I thought... Maybe I'm wrong... There was something about 'needs blind' and 'needs aware'... For schools who offered places where they guaranteed that if they offered you a place then it would not be the case that your lack of funds would prohibit or prevent you from taking up the place...

HOw did that go... I'm not entirely sure...

I thought that early admissions was needs aware. Because with early admission applications you are guaranteeing that if you are offered a place you will go. Before you know how much they are going to charge you. So it's fair for you to assume they are going to charge you full price. So you are agreeding to pay up to about $80,000 (say) per year for 4 years... When you apply under early admission.

Else you are poor as a dog... IN which case I think they are allowed to be needs-aware on early admission offers... I mean... I was trusting them not to say 'we know how poor you are and we choose to offer you a place at $80,000 USD per year x 4 years'...

The funding thing... Well.. That's at the discretion of the school, I thought. How much they required you to pay per year. After receiving infromation about your financial position. They are private schools... They can do what they like..

I thought.

They can be Robin-Hood. Taking full fee paying studnets via early admissions and using the money obtained to pay for partial or even full scholarships for other kids. To try and get a good mix of kids to try and get and keep a good culture at the University. Make it be a place genuinely worth people wanting to go there etc.

Anyway...

I don't understand how private schools sort of agreeing or colluding or whatever amongst or between themselves on how much they are going to full fee charge their private school education is... Screwing people with FAFSA funding.

The entire thing doesn't make any sense to me.

The nature of the allegations, I mean to say.

__

The only sense I can make...

It seems that fairly recently... Well... A whole bunch of people might have got it into their heads that they might be able to sue their way into law school or university. Something like that. Use it... Not quite like publications... But something like that...

So then...

You don't want to make it too easy...

I mean to say you need to be able to distinguish between the people who champion good causes for the right reasons and people who are vexatious or who simply don't have an eye or sight for good cases or claims vs... Because the capacity... Is really rather surprisingly lacking in many... I mean... Check out the quality of many publications.. Attesting to incompetence and incapacity more than anything else...

I can only see this recent development in litigation against Universities as...

A way of trying to re-coup some of the costs involved in the (genuniely) more difficult (though possibly genuinely ground-breaking) proceedings around race-discrimination in admissions.

 

Re: price fixing cartels?

Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2022, at 20:54:21

In reply to price fixing cartels?, posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2022, at 20:44:07

Actually... They did require you to apply for FAFSA funding if you thought you may be eligible for it. I didn't because I wasn't eligible because I'm not a citizen. But if I was a citizen I was expected to have applied for FAFSA funding...

I genuinely don't understand the issue...

How could the private schools undermine FAFSA funding by fixing prices?

If they offer you a free-ride then you don't get FAFSA funding that you otherwise would -- but the FAFSA funding wasn't cash in the hand it was funding towards the cost of your education -- right? In the form of a loan -- right?

So the private schools are then offering you funding so that you don't end up with a FAFSA loan (but I don't know why they wouldn't rather you have a FAFSA loan)...

I don't know...

Maybe the issue is bonding to the University rather than to the Government...

You are expected to work... Was it 15 or 20 hours per week... For the University. During semester. Then summer internships. If you were a scholarship student. I think that's right... I think that full fee paying students were not required to do those things...

I am not entirely sure...

I know that NZ does not have an apprenticeship system or fair bonding at all. it has slavery and typically people are put to work with little to no investment of training.

Australia is not very much better. It is running itself backwards at a rapid rate of knots insofar as I can see. Taking the worst offenders of NZ and promoting them to comparable positions so they can further their cause of deprivation and de-evolution in Australia.

 

Re: price fixing cartels?

Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2022, at 21:02:06

In reply to Re: price fixing cartels?, posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2022, at 20:54:21

I mean, the state of teaching, in New Zealand...

Rather than PhD students doing tutoring...
Rather than Masters students doing tutoring...
Rather than Honors (4th year) students doing tutoring...

We literally employ students one year ahead to do tutoring.

It is literally only one step removed from 'straggle yourselves up'.

The University *chooses* to utilize testing that rewards cheating.

The University *chooses* to utilize testing that has arbitrary answers (that must be schooled and where only some are chosen to be given the answers) and / or *chooses* to utilize testing that covers such a range of content that there is a distinct advantage for the few students who are supplied with the questions before-hand.

As soon as people find they are selected in to second year Med they are offering to sell first years the answers to first year. Whether or not they are able to sell them the content, they are able to make money off of promising to sell them the content, else they are able to make money off of exploiting their fears that they will be at a disadvantage if they do not pay them for access to the content.

The University *chooses* to allow and chooses to *encourage* and *chooses to profiteer* from creating this culture of fear and competitiveness that undermines the value and the integrity of the entire enterprise.

We are supposed to think that it's because it's easier for Australia to try and cut NZ off at the knees than to create something worth working towards. And we are supposed to think that that is justified because the US schools are more focused on cutting Australia off at the knees than creating something worth... Paying for... In the private schools of the USA.

I mean... Harvard has to be worth paying for -- right? That means it has to be better than Sydney etc -- right? That means Sydney must be kept... Well... How low can we keep Sydney?

Right?

Is that the idea?

 

Re: price fixing cartels?

Posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2022, at 19:45:36

In reply to Re: price fixing cartels?, posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2022, at 21:02:06

I suppose I thought that you did pay more to go to a private rather than a public school. But that that was an investment.

I mean...

What do you want to do upon graduation? You want the University to have a meaningful job for you? Or you want to get employment from... I don't know... A major company? Maybe a major company that only got put together as a major company because of the skills etc that people had out of University or developed or extended from that base...

Right?

I mean... Say you do give the University $80,000 per year for 4 years... Or for 8 years (say, to do Professional Degree like Med or Law or Business). Or for 9 years... To do a PhD...

What do they do with that money?

Maybe they invest it so they can pay you XXX dollars per year for your 'meaningful job' upon your graduation.

Or...

What are you going to do with the money, then? Or what's mommy or daddy going to do with the money, then?

__

I suppose I thought that you do pay more for private vs public school...

So...

Let's suppose...

Let's suppose you are from North Carolina. This is a hard one. Maybe the hardest... So you work at High School and you do whatever... And you apply for various things... And you apply to both UNC Chapel Hill (public) and Duke (private).

Well, now, that's a hard one.

I don't suppose there would be any reason for a UNC native (as in resident) to go to Duke over UNC. I mean... You are looking at paying around 3x the fees -- right? And technially you could take all your courses at Duke from UNC (if you wanted) and the bus is only, like 20 minutes each way...

I mean to say...

Why would you pay more to do to Duke than to go to UNC?

And the answer to that is... Uh.. Um... Well... You wouldn't.

_____

Small class sizes?

Yes.

Pastoral care?

The pastoral care at UNC (For the arts at least) was, in my experience, pretty good. But... It doesn't compare to the very very very small class sizes that could be offered at Duke.

I also think that if you perhaps aren't the brightest or... Need a little help... Then you may get more help at Duke... Because.. Because of the small class sizes, yes. The teacher-student ratios. They simply have more time to spend. And perhaps they also do and will hire people who are perhaps not so naturally smart... Who are a bit more of the natural plodders... Who are genuinely motivating and encouraging to people who are finding things a bit hard... I think that the science class sizes at UNC were MUCH MUCH larger (I never got permission to audit) and maybe considerably more cut-throat / less kind to people who weren't naturally very clever and hard-working both.

I don't know...

Why would you pay more to go to Duke than UNC, Chapel Hill?

But that's perhaps one of the hardest cases. Because generally the quality of the public Universities is not so high.

But I suppose I thought that Duke would be filled with out of state people...

It may also be the case that corruption is such that the children of the wealthy elite are given all the best of what UNC has to offer (re grades etc). I don't know.

The University council etc etc engages in processing (and altering) of grades post-departmental sign off. Etc.

What I saw in the philosophy programme, the standard was high (and fair). But I don't knowk about post-production and I don't know how things were in the sciences etc.

___

I suppose I thought...

For the 'average' sort of middle class... Maybe the studnet / the studnet's parents had some kind of a college fund... Also they worked hard...

So then they apply (regular admission) for various... The state schools... The flagship Univesrity for the state... Also a second tier for the state... Maybe a couple... Then maybe a couple flagships or whatever from different states. Then maybe a private or two... Just to see.. Take your luck...

I suppose I thought it would make sense for the private Universities to sort of prioritise people from private schools where sort of possible...

Not becuase they kids are necessarily richer... But because they have evidence of them flourishing or thriving in a private school (what they have to offer) environment.

At the very least.

Limit / minimise potential costs of culture shock.

Also... To try and reward investment. For people who have in fact chosen to invest in private education -- when they could have chosen not to and have invested in other things.

___

I don't know..

__

Why would you pay so much money to go to Med School at a Private Uni?

I thought... It was because it would make it considerably more likely that they would match you to them (or a place like them). Again. To minimise culture shock. Mis-match in expectations. Etc.

__

I suppose I am assuming or hoping for the highest standard of integrity from the Universities. Thinking that the better Universities (the ones with the better reputations) are genuinely trying to do things justly and fairly (with the resourcecs to effect that) better than anybody else...

I've always assumed that. Lower tier institutions (it seems to me) are determined to knock that out. Justify their taking the low road.

It isn't that their taking the low road limits their growth and keeps them low low low.

It's that there is no alternative. There is no other way. A failure of imagination is a genuine insight into natural necessity. Etc.

_____

I knew it was cheeky my applying for early admission. I knew it would get me on the radar. That's why I did it. I suppose I expected my application would be declined.

I told them I was going to study via Khan academy and apply again... Then I didnt' apply again. Because I got all tied up in the legal lproceedings in this country that is not rule by law.

Then my mother died. And money was freed up. Some. I am not rich. But I maybe have enough for the green-card lottery. I dno't know.

I don't know.

I don't know...

I'm still working that out.

NZ seems determinedt hat there is nothing here for me but a life of disability and deprivation

People are supposed to hand over their stuff and then flee..

So I suppose I make arrangements to get the money out first.

 

Re: price fixing cartels?

Posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2022, at 20:03:03

In reply to Re: price fixing cartels?, posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2022, at 19:45:36

The faculty-student ratio is a huge thing. A huge deal.

Because of the cost involved in hiring that many people to be on faculty. Because of the potential rewards involved in so many people having quality positions (tenure jobs) at... High quality Universities.

That's good jobs for good people.

And the work that's required of the scholarship students (particularly). The number of hours of work per week also the summer internships... It isn't 'busy-work' or 'scut-work' it is genuine work (much of it, so far as I could see) that had a genuine place on people's CV. To make them employable post-graduation. And that's what people want -- right? To go on to quality employment post-university?

I don't know how much things are fixed or unfair within... I mean...

What is fair?

I think it is genuinely hard to know, sometimes...

Let's say...

Suppose there is this particular class... And only 30 students can enroll it in... And they will teach you some very particular things with the laboratory work...

So... They can only enroll up to 30 students.

And then suppose... That there are some students who are all hanging out by their computers with courses in their shopping basket ready to hit 'commit' (or similar) when enrolments open at 8am or one-past-midnight or whatever it is... Either because of something in their nature... Or because generations of alumni have told them that that's how people in fact get into those kinds of limited entry classes...

Anyway... If it turns out that all the fee-paying students are getting entry to the 'high quality' (on some rubric) classes, like that while other students (the scholarship students, say) are expected to just pick up the remainder...

That doesn't seem fair. On the other hand... Just because someone is rich doesn't mean they didn't by their own desire sit there before opening to ensure they got what they really really wanted (with no insider information)... I don't know...

On the other hand.. The scholarship students may not be there at all if it wasn't that they were able to be paid for out of the full fee paying students fee payments...

It is genuinely hard to know what is fair...

To be sure.

Maybe this cartel thing is trying to sort through this / work this out in genuine ways.

One way of thinking of judicial review or of legal action is as an opportunity for a (more) genuinely independent investigation or inquiry or review. So as to consider all (or more) of the factors that come into play... For the purposes of (all things considered) working out what seems to be most genuinely fair. To the best of our abilities.

I mean... What's the alternative.

Duh. Too retarded. We know what is right for you (we know nothing at all and we most particularly refuse to listen to anything you have to say) retard-land of New Zealand.

 

Re: price fixing cartels?

Posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2022, at 20:09:09

In reply to Re: price fixing cartels?, posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2022, at 20:03:03

I think there is something like that with computer science. At least that's what I saw... That at some Universities (the higher quality ones) you couldn't take computer science courses (you wouldn't be allowed into them) unless you were a declared computer science major on application (and they selected you to study at the university as a declared computer science major).

I think it's because...

You don't need to go to university to learn to make a webpage. And the higher quality universities don't want to clutter up people's university education with things they could do in their own time whenever they have the time to do it...

Biology can be a lot like that, too...

Universities do run High School level courses in various things... I'm not sure how they decide what (if any) of that to run and who is allowed in etc etc...

I don't know.

It seems unfair to take people's money for that kind of a thing.

On the other hand... The places whose job it is to train people in those sorts of things... Often won't.

I guess the idea typically is to keep people held back.

 

Re: price fixing cartels?

Posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2022, at 20:19:36

In reply to Re: price fixing cartels?, posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2022, at 20:09:09

There is a difference when a private school hires someone maybe not terribly original in their research but who is capable of high quality under-graduate level teaching to teach under-graduate level courses to students who are hard-working and able to pay for it...

And when a public school hires someone who is not researching / who is not capable of researching to internationally accepted standards of scholarship to limit the progression of students with the capacity to do the work without the capacity to pay the bribes and facilitation payments and exit payments etc for their sign-off.

can you hear the difference?

i can.


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