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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2007, at 21:10:25
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read, posted by verne on April 21, 2007, at 20:55:57
That's exactly how I interpreted the sigh.
But I was too snivelly and civil to say anything.
You speak the truth verne.
Posted by Happyflower on April 21, 2007, at 21:20:39
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read, posted by verne on April 21, 2007, at 20:55:57
Hi Verne,
Just a sidenote, I like Dostovesky too after reading some of his stuff in Philosophy class. I loved the Notes From the Underground! I am so interested in him, I bought "The Idiot" and "Crime and Punishment" to read over the summer! ;-) I would love to be able to write like him! ;-) Maybe I could do "Tales from Babble Underground " LOL Take care! ;-)
Posted by tofuemmy on April 21, 2007, at 22:37:52
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read, posted by verne on April 21, 2007, at 20:55:57
The sigh *I* am thinking of made me think, "I am exasperated, and feel without words". To me, it's a sound indicating a sad sense of feeling defeated or vaquished. Sorta giving up.
I guess others see it differently?
em
Posted by Honore on April 21, 2007, at 22:41:39
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read » verne, posted by Happyflower on April 21, 2007, at 21:20:39
How can any of us really know what kind of sigh a "sigh" is? There are so many ways of sighing, and so many undercurrents, and crosscurrents, too.
I personally interpreted the sigh very differently-- but I suppose I can't be at all certain that my reaction was more correct.
I feel sad and dispirited more than anything that so many of us seem disturbed and disappointed in one another or ourselves--
Is there an "in" crowd? I don't feel that way mostly. When I do, I usually think I'm just telling myself a bad story about myself-- the one in which I'm left out and don't belong. I sometimes forget, but I try to remember that that's my story.
To me, the deputies are leaders here (not the only ones, but important ones). I respect and admire their dedication. It means a lot to me, even though I wasn't here when they were participating more actively as posters. They have a lot of history and I respect and admire that as well.
This evening, when I was out, I was telling someone what an amazing place this is, how many intelligent and thoughtful people contribute so much of themselves-- the deputies, as deputies and posters, and so many other posters here. That's it's really amazing that such a place exists-- that it was created by one person and that it continues in such a fine and deep way. Also that I felt bad that there was a bad time here now-- a lot of bad feelings-- and that I thought it was so easy to forget what a special thing it is here.--even now.
I just hope that we can stick with one another here- through the rougher times-- and not become so disillusioned that we lose sight of what we've created together.
Honore
Posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2007, at 22:45:45
In reply to A sigh, posted by tofuemmy on April 21, 2007, at 22:37:52
Posted by Declan on April 21, 2007, at 22:54:06
In reply to A sigh, posted by tofuemmy on April 21, 2007, at 22:37:52
Since I have a bad back I have not read all the posts.
But didn't it start with Phil asking about jokes?
And it goes on and on, with more offence created, and no one knows how to stop it.
Anyway, Verne was not given an escalated block, which is something.
Posted by Declan on April 21, 2007, at 22:55:37
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read » verne, posted by Happyflower on April 21, 2007, at 21:20:39
"Notes From Underground" is one of the funniest books I have read, especially the first half.
Posted by Gabbi-2 on April 21, 2007, at 22:57:16
In reply to A sigh, posted by tofuemmy on April 21, 2007, at 22:37:52
I think that's probably how it was meant, it was likely a sigh about everything going on. When it's directed directly after a certain post, (not a lengthy thread) and at someone you don't frequently post to, or perhaps never have, I don't think it should be surprising that it's found offensive.
IF I posted one post that was important to me, no matter what the content, and someone I didn't really know took the time to simply post *sigh* underneath it, it would make me feel I wasn't even being acknowledged as a person, and it's a closed comment, it obviously instigates feelings in the person it's directed at but doesn't convey that you consider them even worthy of the dignity of responding.
I'm not saying that's how it was meant (Though at times on Babble I'm quite sure that's the intent)
I'm just saying it seems quite justifed that someone feel looked down upon when it happens.
Posted by Declan on April 21, 2007, at 22:58:57
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read » Happyflower, posted by Declan on April 21, 2007, at 22:55:37
Maybe it wasn't the first half?
A mistake!
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2007, at 23:02:19
In reply to Re: A sigh » tofuemmy, posted by Gabbi-2 on April 21, 2007, at 22:57:16
When posting conclusions about speculations of meanings of words or posts, please keep the civility guidelines in mind.
If you believe a post is uncivil, please use the notify the administrators function.
This is a general reminder to all, and not directed to any individual specifically.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Phillipa on April 21, 2007, at 23:07:38
In reply to A general reminder, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2007, at 23:02:19
Dinah how are the pups? Love Phillipa
Posted by Daisym on April 21, 2007, at 23:23:45
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Daisy - please hear » Daisym, posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2007, at 20:33:49
****Daisy how do you think people who don't agree with you should express themselves? You write sometimes about wanting to be heard...and I would really like your thoughts. Are you asking everyone to just not talk about any negative experiences here?
***Nope - never have ever asked anyone to not post about any negative experiences. People disagree with me ALL the time. What I was hoping to point out was that this place isn't all bad. And all the fighting makes people leave and that makes me sad. Because we are fighting about the fighting now, not the issue anymore. Does that make any sense at all?
Posted by Daisym on April 21, 2007, at 23:37:02
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read, posted by verne on April 21, 2007, at 20:55:57
I tried but I only managed reading about half of your open letter. I felt compelled after the "please read" to actually read a post for a change.
***Sorry, I'm sort of known for my long-winded posts, I do tend to ramble.I don't think your sigh after one of my posts meant to do anything but make me feel more alienated. "Sigh, he doesn't get it". "Sigh, he's not one of us". "Sigh..." Sort of like, the aforementioned, "Pardon Me". Same crap really.
***Actually, it was meant to convey great, deep sadness because you were leaving. Because that was/is my fear. People leave babble when things get rough. But I can see how it would be misread. Should have waited before pushing that darn "send" button. I apologize for what it must have sounded like.
Emotionally loaded *sighs* and *pardon me's* are allowed as *civil*. Just a different way of telling someone to jump off a cliff really.
****Nope, didn't mean that at all. You don't know me, so you have no reason to believe this, but it isn't how I operate.I can play the babble word game with the best of them, but I refuse. I could run circles around you, even provoke you into getting yourself blocked, and still not be censored. I'm being nice, and extra civil, by leaving.
***** maybe, but I'm not up to the challenge right now. Life is hard enough. And this wasn't meant at all as a word game or even to provoke anything. Should have kept my head down and stayed in my corner. I wasn't even really trying to help calm things down, or choose sides or anything. I was just expressing my own silly sentiments. I feel fully chastised now for doing that. My own risk though, so I'll own it.I could play your game but the cost is too high. To borrow from Dostovesky, "The price of admission is too high."
****I think I agree and will fade away again. I just hope you know that I didn't, don't, never had, anything personal against you. I don't know you, you don't know me. I'm still sad, you sound angry. This is a loss for both of us.
Be well.
Daisy
Posted by Daisym on April 21, 2007, at 23:39:01
In reply to I would have had the same reaction » verne, posted by Gabbi-2 on April 21, 2007, at 21:02:06
Again not my intent. And I can think of no time on Babble that I ever patronized or belittled. So not my style. I hope I didn't make you feel bad by association.
Daisy
Posted by Happyflower on April 21, 2007, at 23:43:23
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read » Happyflower, posted by Declan on April 21, 2007, at 22:55:37
> "Notes From Underground" is one of the funniest books I have read, especially the first half.
Oh, I agree! Many in my philopsy class was put off by the undeground man, but I thought he was so funny. What an awesome pyschology and philopshy study this story was. I did my paper on him taking a pyschological profile approach. The prof. loved it, gave me an A.
Posted by Daisym on April 21, 2007, at 23:43:30
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read » verne, posted by fayeroe on April 21, 2007, at 21:05:18
I'm just going down the list to say "not my intent, sorry, didn't mean to offend." I'm worried that it will stop sounding sincere but it is. I guess the message of my post is lost to this. Is there the equivalent of a white flag here?
Posted by Daisym on April 21, 2007, at 23:45:47
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read » verne, posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2007, at 21:10:25
Sometimes a sigh is just a sigh. There was only sadness about more fighting and another person leaving.
And now there is another.
Daisy
Posted by Daisym on April 21, 2007, at 23:48:00
In reply to A sigh, posted by tofuemmy on April 21, 2007, at 22:37:52
yes. I give up. Exactly.
This is where I begin to think that being a middle child, wanting peace to reign and everyone to be happy really gets in the way.
Posted by Daisym on April 21, 2007, at 23:49:20
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Babblers - please read, posted by Honore on April 21, 2007, at 22:41:39
You said it better than I did and shorter too. :)
Posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2007, at 23:52:40
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Daisy - please hear, posted by Daisym on April 21, 2007, at 23:23:45
> ****Daisy how do you think people who don't agree with you should express themselves? You write sometimes about wanting to be heard...and I would really like your thoughts. Are you asking everyone to just not talk about any negative experiences here?
>
> ***Nope - never have ever asked anyone to not post about any negative experiences. People disagree with me ALL the time. What I was hoping to point out was that this place isn't all bad. And all the fighting makes people leave and that makes me sad. Because we are fighting about the fighting now, not the issue anymore. Does that make any sense at all?'''''''''
No. sorry it doesn't make any sense to me at all.
I haven't seen anyone say this place is ALL bad at all. Could you be specific?
I think people leave for lots of reasons.
A lot of them can't even be mentioned without being blocked. It feels as if the elephant in the room stomps you bloody and kicks you out of the house if you mention it. How can we discuss negative experiences without mentioning them? If you consider this discussions "fighting", how can we discuss these things in a different way?
Could you tell me what you consider the "issue"?
I think people leave because of the things people have been complaining about. And that makes me sad.
Thanks for replying. I genuinely don't understand what you meant. I just don't understand.
Posted by Daisym on April 22, 2007, at 0:00:35
In reply to Re: I would have had the same reaction » Gabbi-2, posted by Daisym on April 21, 2007, at 23:39:01
I think that's probably how it was meant, it was likely a sigh about everything going on. When it's directed directly after a certain post, (not a lengthy thread) and at someone you don't frequently post to, or perhaps never have, I don't think it should be surprising that it's found offensive.
****Really? Because I was surprised. But upon reflection can see why it could or would be interpreted that way. But I'm such a polly-anna that I don't think things through sometimes.IF I posted one post that was important to me, no matter what the content, and someone I didn't really know took the time to simply post *sigh* underneath it, it would make me feel I wasn't even being acknowledged as a person, and it's a closed comment, it obviously instigates feelings in the person it's directed at but doesn't convey that you consider them even worthy of the dignity of responding.
*****Again - not at all what I meant to convey. I didn't want to argue with the post or comment on it. It was about sadness that someone was so unhappy they needed to leave. It was about not knowing what to say but wanting to say something. But again, NOW I can see how it might have been construed that way, particularly from someone who doesn't know that I'm not an instigator, I'm not particularly challenging and I don't ever try to be difficult.I'm not saying that's how it was meant (Though at times on Babble I'm quite sure that's the intent)
I'm just saying it seems quite justified that someone feel looked down upon when it happens.
****I hope the explanation and apology clarify the intent.
Posted by Daisym on April 22, 2007, at 0:18:43
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Daisy - please hear » Daisym, posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2007, at 23:52:40
I don't want to split hairs - and I'm sure anytime I use "all" or "none" there will be a place to be wrong. Which is fine.
The "issue" I was refering to was about animal jokes. Then it turned into who could say what and how civil was this and then about the deputies and then...I'm not commenting on any of that, who is right or wrong or whatever.
I guess I should have just left this all alone. Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand it or follow along. I don't want to debate anyone. I am sad, that is how I feel. I guess I want everyone to have the same experience I have most of the time here but it isn't in my power to make that happen for anyone but me.
thanks for trying to understand. Please let it go, OK? I don't want to be misunderstood anymore or cause more angst. I really do need that white flag.
Daisy
Posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2007, at 0:24:48
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Daisy - please hear, posted by Daisym on April 22, 2007, at 0:18:43
You feel what you feel. I'm sorry you're sad. It will be okay again, I feel certain.
In the meantime, when my new shoes come in, I can tell you all about them in my shoe fashion challenged way.
Namaste
gg
Posted by zazenducke on April 22, 2007, at 0:38:02
In reply to Re: An Open Letter to Daisy - please hear, posted by Daisym on April 22, 2007, at 0:18:43
since we're talking feelings
Disagreeing and speaking out isn't "fighting"
I wasn't splitting hairs.
You're always free not to respond. You don't need my permission.
Posted by Daisym on April 22, 2007, at 0:58:16
In reply to I feel accused dismissed guilt-tripped and sad, posted by zazenducke on April 22, 2007, at 0:38:02
I should give up but I really, really don't want you to feel accused, dismissed, guilt-tripped. I guess since I feel sad I wouldn't mind the company in that.
I'm not accusing you of anything. Actually, just the opposite as I am trying to unwind myself from the mess I've made. Apologies typed out never sound as sincere as I would like them to. But believe me when I say I'm trying to disengage without malice.
I'm trying to back away, take responsibility and make nice, not dismiss you. Hence my plea.
Guilt tripped - I hope not. You are so right that disagreeing and speaking out isn't fighting. I just don't want to do any of things anymore tonight.
I'm sorry you are sad. Me too. I think we all need ice cream. Or whatever makes you feel better.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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