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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 53. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 23:10:03
Is happiness the only end in itself?
Do we only want other things because we think that they will make us happy?
If happiness is defined as pleasure (and the absense of pain) is happiness the only thing that is important to us?
Posted by Susan47 on March 16, 2005, at 23:32:36
In reply to Happiness, posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 23:10:03
A happy, I'm learning, makes a better me. All the way 'round. So yeah, for me, happiness is THE goal. It's the gateway to doing and being everything I ever wanted, but happiness is still the goal. Happiness begets itself, over and over and over again, in more and more ways.. happiness, in my short little tiny experience with it here within myself, is the door to many wonderful places, places most of us have forgotten exist, I think. Or maybe it was just me. Yes. I think so. Just me.
Posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 9:51:23
In reply to Re: Happiness, posted by Susan47 on March 16, 2005, at 23:32:36
I think of it more of a moment to moment kind of feeling. A feeling to experience, to prolong, but to strive for it is a paradox. If you are not simply "being" (at ease and in the moment)then you won't recognize the feeling when you're having it- you'll be too busy working to feel.
I think my own goal is acceptance of myself and others.
I would be content to accept more feelings of happiness and less of sadness, as I would be rather have more gladness than madness; I realize that one cannot exist without the other, but have to admit that I prefer happiness and gladness!!!
Just a little of my perception of the teachings of the Dalia Lama regarding feelings....
Posted by AuntieMel on March 17, 2005, at 12:40:55
In reply to Happiness, posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 23:10:03
Happiness isn't having the things you want.
Happiness is wanting the things you have.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 17, 2005, at 13:29:17
In reply to Re: Happiness, posted by AuntieMel on March 17, 2005, at 12:40:55
Different people seem to have different ideas of happiness...
I guess people started with the thought that happiness was pleasure and the absense of pain but then Mill (and others no doubt) wanted to distinguish between higher and lower pleasures. He thought that if everyone had experienced both then everyone would prefer the higher pleasures.
The particular things he called the higher pleasures are controversial though...
I like the notion that happiness is a state of mind or an attitude that we adopt. In a sense we can be happy in the presence of pain. Though if we think happiness is just pleasure or the absense of pain then we couldn't feel happy when experiencing pain.
Is happiness the only thing we want in itself, though? Do we only want other things because we believe they will make us happier? Or are there other things that are valuable in themselves regardless of whether we think we will be happy because of them?
Posted by AuntieMel on March 17, 2005, at 14:27:18
In reply to Re: Happiness, posted by alexandra_k on March 17, 2005, at 13:29:17
Well, we you look at the things we want and ask ourselves *why* we want them don't they all boil down to thinking they will make us happier? Or less sad?
I can't think of a single thing I ever wanted that I didn't think would make me 'happier.' Even wanting things like 'world peace' is because we think we will feel happier, isn't it?
Posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 14:58:44
In reply to Re: Happiness, posted by alexandra_k on March 17, 2005, at 13:29:17
I have been happy, done something silly like walk into a doorway with my shoulder and continued being happy through the pain....
the antithesis of happy is the pain of sad- not "pain" per se.
Posted by Damos on March 17, 2005, at 16:02:25
In reply to Happiness, posted by alexandra_k on March 16, 2005, at 23:10:03
Hmmmm, (he says reach a to his bookshelf for "The Art of Happiness" by the Dalai Lama) :-). Therefore I sadly cannot take credit for much of what follows.
It is interesting that the 'Western' word "happy" is derived from the Icelandic word happ, meaning luck or chance.
Yes, I do believe it is the natural tendency of people to move toward happiness, and to quote the Dalai Lama who when asked if happiness was a reasonable goal for most people, replied:
"Yes, I believe that happiness can be achieved through training the mind."
This contrasts sharply with Freud's belief that "one feels inclined to say that the intention that man should be 'happy' in not included in the plan of 'Creation'." This has led many in the psychiatric profession to believe that the best most people can hope for is "the transormation of hysteric misery into common unhappiness."
When asked to explain 'training the mind' he (The Dalai Lama) responded saying that the 'mind' he speaks of is not simply cognitive ability or intellect, but is closer to 'psyche' or 'spirit' and includes intellect and feeling, heart and mind, and "by bringing about a certain inner discipline we can undergo a transformation of our attitude, our entire outlook, and approach to living."
Alexandra_k it is difficult to explain my own thoughts on happiness other than to say that I do not define it as pleasure. It was a pleasureable act that in fact triggered one of my worst depressions - because of the total absence of happiness. I know with absolute certainty that no 'thing' can make me happy. Do I feel happy when I read a 'post' that moves me to tears and makes my heart break, causing me to reach out and 'post' a reply, however inadequate - absolutely. It is the sense of connecting and wanting to ease that persons burden of suffering and wishing them love, feeling deepest compassion for them and hoping for healing that are happiness. So I guess it is not the absense of 'pain' but of 'suffering' that brings happiness. $%^&%^^%*%&^&!!!!!! For example I have an 'attachment' to my parents and sisters, but no 'connection' and this is a source of great unhappiness for me. But on the other hand I have no 'attachment' to any 'poster' in a conventional sense but experience a deep sense of 'connectedness' with all who come to this place. This is a source of much happiness.
I guess what I'm trying pathetically to get to is that 'happiness' is not the only important thing, but practicing all those things that create 'happiness' for all. I'll end this ramble with a quote from Shantideva.
Whatever joy there is in this world
All comes from desiring others to be happy,
And whatever suffering there is in this world
All comes from desiring myself to be happy.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 17, 2005, at 17:50:38
In reply to Re: Happiness, posted by AuntieMel on March 17, 2005, at 12:40:55
> Happiness isn't having the things you want.
>
> Happiness is wanting the things you have.What she said.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 17, 2005, at 21:47:27
In reply to Re: Happiness » AuntieMel, posted by Larry Hoover on March 17, 2005, at 17:50:38
We might desire stuff (family, children, money, a career) because we believe it would make us happy, but if we get the stuff we wanted there is still no guarantee that we will be happy.
I guess the question is whether we only desire stuff because we think it will lead to happiness - or whether we desire other things not just because they will lead to happiness but because there are other things we desire in themselves too.
I mean, it makes sense to ask 'why do you want a job, family, money' etc?
It doesn't make much sense to ask 'why do you want to be happy?'
Happiness is an end in itself whereas a job etc may only be a means to happiness (we hope).
Posted by alexandra_k on March 17, 2005, at 21:54:50
In reply to Re: Happiness, posted by alexandra_k on March 17, 2005, at 21:47:27
This is a 'thought experiment' that is supposed to have us consider whether happiness is the only thing that is desirable in itself or whether there are other things aside from happiness that are equally (if not more) important to us:
Suppose that somehow or other superbeings have created some sort of computer program that can result in your brain being stimulated in such a way that they can feed you whatever experiences would make you happiest.
This is the 'greatest happiness machine'.
The superbeings may remove your brain from your body and keep it alive in a vat of nutrients (or they may be able to care for a body in a vat too if you would prefer) and they will feed you whatever experiences would make you happiest if you choose to enter the greatest happiness machine.
If you think you would be happiest believing that you were still living in reality that can be programmed in. If you think that a little bit of disappointment or satisfaction would result in your being happier later (because of the contrast) then that can be programmed in as well.
The point is that the greatest happiness machine will result in greater happiness for you than if you were to continue living in the real world.
If you had the choice of plugging in to the greatest happiness machine forever or continuing on with your life as usual what would you choose to do?
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 17, 2005, at 22:41:04
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine, posted by alexandra_k on March 17, 2005, at 21:54:50
> If you had the choice of plugging in to the greatest happiness machine forever or continuing on with your life as usual what would you choose to do?
That's easy. Life as usual. There are many other meaningful attributes to life, apart from happiness. It's not even the most important one for me.
Good night.
Lar
Posted by alexandra_k on March 17, 2005, at 23:03:22
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on March 17, 2005, at 22:41:04
Posted by Susan47 on March 17, 2005, at 23:34:04
In reply to Re: Happiness, posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 14:58:44
I'd agree with that too Sunny. I used to walk into things all the time and it didn't bother me. And strangely enough, I've been happy at times in my life when I really felt like I had nothing but love. So it's definitely not any "thing" that ever made me happy, not ever, I can't honestly think of one time that one thing made me happy. I was either happy or unhappy, regardless of the thing. The biggest thing in my life has been learning that my happiness all comes from inside, ALL of it. I generate it; and when it isn't there, nothing I have makes it come. There's a lot of power in knowing that.
Posted by Susan47 on March 17, 2005, at 23:57:10
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine, posted by alexandra_k on March 17, 2005, at 21:54:50
I'd plug into the happiness machine only if everybody else did it too, and I can tell you that my wish would be that everybody WOULD plug into the happiness machine. Because I believe that happiness is heavenly, and everyone who HAS the ability to experience it, has also the birthright. And because if even one person was unhappy I couldn't take myself out of the equation in that person's existence. I would stay to "help" that person. So there might only be two people outside the bubble of happiness, me and the stubborn idiot who decides to tough it out, but I'd wish for everyone else to be in there.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 18, 2005, at 4:37:06
In reply to Re: Happiness, posted by Susan47 on March 17, 2005, at 23:34:04
> The biggest thing in my life has been learning that my happiness all comes from inside, ALL of it. I generate it; and when it isn't there, nothing I have makes it come. There's a lot of power in knowing that.
Thats what I thought too... Until one of my therapists (a good one) tried to show me otherwise. I still think happiness is an attitude that we adopt but I have come to agree that there can be environmental factors that impact on our ability to adopt such an attitude.
She asked me whether a starving leper in India would be able to feel happy.
I thought yes, it was possible.
She asked me whether it was likely that a starving leper in India was happy.
I thought no. Most probably not.
Some people seem to have a greater capacity to adopt that attitude than others...
And some people find themselves in an easier environment to be able to adopt that attitude in...
Posted by alexandra_k on March 18, 2005, at 4:45:44
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine, posted by Susan47 on March 17, 2005, at 23:57:10
> I'd plug into the happiness machine only if everybody else did it too, and I can tell you that my wish would be that everybody WOULD plug into the happiness machine.
Sounds like you might quite like hedonistic utilitarianism. That means that you think people should do that which results in the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people.
That has been proposed as a universal moral law...
Other people have the intuition that it wouldn't be acceptable to plug in for reasons such as these:
1) Autonomy. You can't make choices in the greatest happiness machine - you just have the illusion of choice.
2) Agency. You aren't acting as an agent. You aren't acting at all - you just have the illusion of agency.
2) Reality. You aren't living in reality at all. You are living in a massive illusion.The points are related really.
Another way to say it is:
Would you rather be Socrates dissatisfied than a satisfied fool?
The point being that Socrates searched for wisdom and knowledge (etc) and doing that brought him much dissatisfaction and unhappiness... The fool, on the other hand is happy in their illusion that they know it all and are wise (even though they are not).
I think it is nice to want everyone to be happy :-)
Hedonistic Utilitarianism captures that quite nicely. But maybe sometimes we prefer other things than happiness, and maybe this form of utilitarianism would be better:Preference Utilitarianism: We should do that act that results in the greatest preference satisfaction.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 18, 2005, at 4:54:25
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on March 18, 2005, at 4:45:44
But there would only be a difference between the two if we think that other things are valuable in themselves aside from happiness.
I dunno...
Depends on what you mean by happiness I guess...If you define happiness as 'satisfaction of preference' then there is no difference between preference and hedonistic utilitarianism.
Language is a slippery slippery thing...
Posted by sunny10 on March 18, 2005, at 9:46:00
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on March 17, 2005, at 22:41:04
I agree. If we chose the Great Happiness Machine, we would be no better than Pavlov's dogs.
If all we were to receive were happiness, would we not become desensitized to it? And if so, how would we remain "happy"?
All of life should be experieced- otherwise we would all become robots.
My opinion, anyway...
Posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 9:54:40
In reply to Re: Happiness » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on March 18, 2005, at 4:37:06
Here, allow me to amend my thinking. Happiness is NOT a birthright, because we live on a planet that's physical, we live in a physical plane where disease, starvation and pestilence occur. So, now, happiness is a privilege and yes it's a goal in my opinion if we're lucky enough to have the ability to reach or strive for that goal, we should do everything in our power without hurting others to do that. Remember though that MY definition of happiness is having my physical and emotional needs MOSTLY (not always) met, and having the ability to meet my OWN physical and emotional needs for the most part. Of course, if I were a starving leper that would be impossible. SO yes, I'd want everyone in that happiness bubble being taken care of by an alien. M-hm. Now let's see if I need to amend my thinking some more... (of COURSE) ...
Posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 10:00:02
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on March 18, 2005, at 4:45:44
Yes but everyone is an individual, Alexandra, and happiness allows me to learn better. See now, this really gets me. WHO THE HELL CAME UP WITH THE SICK THEORY THAT LEARNING AND GROWTH ALL MUST COME OUT OF MISERY AND STRUGGLE? what UTTER crap. Ah, so searching for wisdom and knowledge results in dissatisfaction and unhappiness? ANd FURTHERMORE, Autonomy LEADS TO Happiness, not away from it. Listen, babe, I've just MADE THE DECISION to plug into the happiness machine. IN THAT MACHINE, if you will recall, I am allowed to have the illusion of living a life. Right? Well, you didn't ask me what my idea of a life was, did you? Did I say that happiness precludes me from learning? No. Happiness ALLOWS learning. oy. This idea that happiness is equated to stupidity and non-growth is such human shite.
Posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 10:35:45
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine, posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 10:00:02
In my world, you see, the belief I hold, is that no matter whether there's a higher being, a greater intelligence that holds us somewhere in its conscious OR NOT, we have the opportunity and the ability, all who are born mentally whole, we have the ability together to make survival and the passing on of generations a Pleasure in spite of all the hardships of nature (and the joys of nature, too. Ever skinny-dipped at midnight, been nude in the sun on a gorgeous summer day in a meadow ...
Anyway, off track, way off here but the point is that my personal belief and isn't that what all behaviour and decision-making is based on? Personal belief? But my personal belief anyway is that happiness generates happiness, misery generates misery. I believe that's a law of nature, that's my belief, I have a high school education folks, and not a very good one at that, everything else is strictly very very very limited personal life experience ... just to make it all official ... hmmm anyway so everything is generative ... and because I make happiness a goal, that happiness spreads to my kids, my ex-husband, all the people I see every day, everyone who speaks to me, everyone who interacts with me in any way at all ... and if every fr*gging person in America were truly happy and understood where it truly originates and how to pass it along so it comes BACK AGAIN, then that would spread you see, to other people who need it so desperately, because all of a sudden, we would ALL understand that we don't NEED all these material goods we THINK we need, and we don't have to be anxious about anything because we're already happy, you see, we can let go of that second car and the bigger house because it doesn't make us happy, our PEOPLE make us happy, ad nauseum you see, and then suddenly there's more for everybody, and that spreads ... and the fricking planet has a chance for survival with the human race actually ON it, and DESTROYED BY ITSELF. So yeah, if human generativity is the goal, then happiness is the goal, and human generativity is happiness. So that means that happiness is survival. Hmm.
Posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 10:47:21
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine, posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 10:00:02
I just lost an earring, a sterling silver with garnet DARN it.
But I know I'll talk to someone about that today, and she'll tell me she lost something even more valuable at some point, and knowing about HER chagrin will make me feel better and I'll be happy AGAIN. DARN it. Where is that EARRING I hope it didn't end up going down the bathtub drain!
Posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 11:05:28
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine, posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 10:35:45
And of course it makes perfect Sense, don't you see how perfect that is, that it's programmed into our genes that way? We're the adaptors, aren't we? Isn't that what man is? Only we've outdone ourselves, haven't we, our brains have overcome our logic, our capacity to reason is being overwhelmed by our forgotten search for happiness, which is .. Survival. We've forgotten how to survive; we can't be happy and we WON'T survive as a species, because we're looking for HAPPINESS IN THE WRONG PLACES. Anybody listening? Of course not.
Posted by sunny10 on March 18, 2005, at 11:27:14
In reply to Re: The Greatest Happiness Machine, posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 11:05:28
I agree with everything you said about how people need to WANT to be more happy and that more of us need to be spreading happiness instead of grief which should eventually result in a happier world (in a nutshell).
The only caveat I see is that if we remain in the "active search" stage for to long, our minds will be too busy working to fully experience the small joys along the way, the accumulations of which actually help to adjust our overall attitudes... Sometimes we just have to stop and smell the roses and just "be".
No, you aren't alone, you're not talking to yourself....
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