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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by yesac on June 27, 2003, at 14:49:35
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by shar on June 27, 2003, at 11:00:46
> .....If safe has to be 100% reliable, only inanimate objects would be safe (and I'd exclude electronics). Things like dolls, stuffed animals, rocks, crockery, etc. But even those can be lost or stolen.
I'm almost embarrassed to admit this, but I have a blanket and a stuffed elephant that I have had since I was 2 months old. I bring them almost everywhere - well, not if I am going on vacation or anything like that, but if I move, even if temporarily. They make me feel more "safe" as if having them is at least having someone, as if having them will somehow make things more okay.
> > Without permanence, trust is a risk. And risky is not safe.
>
> .......Trust is risky, period. Even when we are so careful and do our homework, and only let down walls an inch at a time, the closer someone is to us the more they can hurt us. I think it is important to believe you can survive if someone hurts you, or you can't open up to begin with. And, if we run away when we are hurt, we never get a chance to learn we aren't alone. That person can still be there with us, and work things out with us.I have been so hurt when I've lost some people in my life (including 2 therapists, and one of them quite recently). I think it will stay with me forever. But, I do not regret allowing myself to open up and get close. It makes me feel like I am really living, despite the ensuing sometimes unbearable pain. I also had an extremely hard time leaving my college the day after I graduated - I knew that even if I visited later, it would never again be the same. Not that it was even that great of a 4 years. The lack of permanence of everything is just so hard. But I would so much more rather LIVE than be afraid. Still working on that though...
Posted by kalyb on June 27, 2003, at 15:17:23
In reply to Nothing is permanent, posted by yesac on June 27, 2003, at 14:38:09
> I once had a therapist who talked to me about how nothing is like a snapshot photo, or a 30 minute tv show. We just can't attain some perfect level of stability and expect it to stay that way forever. It will never happen. It is such a paradox, since it seems to be what we all crave so much (unless something really sucks and you just want it to be over/past). And it's also why people have a tendency to cling to many things that aren't even that great - just for the stability and safety of that familiar situation. I don't know.... tricky question to answer.
------------------Perhaps the answer there is in learning how to let go...?
A link someone sent me, about non-attachment:
http://www.gla.ac.uk/~gbza22/sriordan/ch8.htmlKalyb xx
Posted by Emme on June 27, 2003, at 22:29:39
In reply to How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 9:20:29
> Doesn't safe mean knowing that something will be there for you when you need it? Doesn't safe mean knowing that something won't hurt and abandon you? How can something be safe if you don't know those things?
>
> Without permanence, trust is a risk. And risky is not safe.Hi Dinah,
I crave stability and to relax and feel safe. But I know there's never a guarantee that something/someone will be there when you need it. And no guarantee you won't be hurt. And it's really scary. At some level I guess you have to make a leap of faith. But I think maybe there's some safety in knowing that if you get hurt, you can survive it with the help of others in your life. Safety can be found in more than one place at any given time, even if no one source is permanent. (Does that make any sense?)
The thing that will be most permanent will be you and your values and fine qualities.Shawn Colvin sings a lovely song titled "Something to Believe In." If you can get a hold of it, you might like it.
Take care,
Emme
Posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2003, at 23:15:13
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 10:45:21
Dinah,
I think that I am starting to believe that you need redundancy for everything.
So far I know this is true for friends (one may be at their child's birthday party, or on vacation, or having their own crisis). If you have 2 or 3 or 4 friends then you have a better chance that someone will be available when you need them.
Clearly it is true for therapists. Having my group therapist in my back pocket helped me panic much less. Also knowing that there exists another therapist in the world who you could find who could help makes me feel safer.
I'm not sure what else.
Do you want to tell us what your pain is about? What is disappearing from your life?
(((((((Dinah)))))))
Posted by Emme on June 28, 2003, at 7:52:51
In reply to How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2003, at 9:20:29
Hi Dinah,
Fallsfall said some of what I meant better than I said it. The part about having different people to rely on in case one is unavailable. Surround yourself as much as possible with caring people and maybe that'll help you feel more anchored.
Take care,Emme
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 8:34:48
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent? » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2003, at 23:15:13
Thanks everyone. I will ponder your responses. :)
Awww, it's just the old insecutities about my therapist, I guess. Losing the office probably sparked them.
He usually gets a bit angry with what he calls my demands for a commitment of forever therapy, so it was with some trepidation that I mentioned my distress to him. But this time we had a gentle conversation about how scary it was to trust someone. It was all very nice. I guess he's decided to accept my excessive need for stability without anger and with a certain level of sympathy. (But not enough to allow me to have a backup therapist.) He's growing as a therapist faster than I'm growing as a client I fear.
But I feel better now. About that anyway.
Posted by fallsfall on June 28, 2003, at 12:45:43
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 8:34:48
Well, Dinah,
I hope your forever is longer than mine.
I'm not having any fun right now, but I'm still here typing away. I have more hope than I've had in a long time. Sometimes not-so-good things end up being really OK.
So how was the office? How was the traffic? What color are the walls?
What did you mean by: "He's growing as a therapist faster than I'm growing as a client I fear."?
You know, I felt better when I figured out what I was depending on her to do. That let me start to work on a way to meet that need without her.
8^)
Posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:10:20
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent? » Dinah, posted by Penny on June 27, 2003, at 10:29:13
Yes, I agree. There are no true guarantees for permanent safety. Change is a fact of life. I think all we can achieve is relative safety and stability. If we think that we must find the perfect permanent guaranteed safety, we'll never be able to enjoy any of the relative safety that we can have.
Not that this is the "be all and end all" book relating to this, but for some reason it pops in my head right now--have you read "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Spencer Johnson?
Posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:13:35
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanen, posted by kalyb on June 27, 2003, at 10:51:12
I am not well versed in Eastern philosophies AT ALL, but my impression is that in Buddhism, the appreciation of the present moment is much more emphasized than it is in our culture. To me, that would be a way to help accept the lack of permanence. OTOH, don't they also believe in reincarnation? If so, that would provide some comfort in dealing with death, which, of course is our ultimate change.
Posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:20:26
In reply to Fallsfall said it, posted by Emme on June 28, 2003, at 7:52:51
Re redundancy:
FF and Emme are right.
Try drawing a diagram--draw a circle in the middle of the page. Then, around that circle, draw a ring of other circles. You are the center. Each of the surrounding circles are people in your life, or things in your life that you get support from.
Hopefully, you have enough diversity there so that if one resource becomes inaccessible, you have the others. If you don't feel you have enough, maybe you can try to think of other sources of support to add to your life.
Posted by yesac on June 28, 2003, at 16:23:19
In reply to Re: Fallsfall said it, posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:20:26
> Hopefully, you have enough diversity there so that if one resource becomes inaccessible, you have the others. If you don't feel you have enough, maybe you can try to think of other sources of support to add to your life.
I think also that at times something or someone comes through as a source of support even when you're not expecting it and think you are all alone, etc. When I lost my therapist 2 months ago, I was totally devastated (even though I had known it was coming) and it was/is really hard. But I found that I was able to reach out and grab hold of my new psychiatrist who I'd only seen a few times. He was really there for me in the absence of a stable therapist.I think that maybe, if we look hard enough, there is always something to grab onto. And I certainly hope so!!
Posted by yesac on June 28, 2003, at 16:26:17
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 8:34:48
>(But not enough to allow me to have a backup therapist.)
I just thought that was funny... I have often thought that I would love to have two therapists to turn to and rely on instead of just one.
Posted by Penny on June 28, 2003, at 17:09:45
In reply to backup therapist! » Dinah, posted by yesac on June 28, 2003, at 16:26:17
It would be great to have a back-up therapist. I have my pdoc in addition to my therapist, but it's just not the same. On the other hand, my therapist gave me the card for one of her colleagues (sp?) in her office in case I need to talk to someone while she's away the next two weeks. Just knowing that helps.
Posted by yesac on June 28, 2003, at 17:22:43
In reply to Re: backup therapist!, posted by Penny on June 28, 2003, at 17:09:45
> talk to someone while she's away the next two weeks. Just knowing that helps.
That's good. If you are ever thinking of calling the crisis number in the CH phone book (OPC after-hours number), I'd just like to say that I really don't recommend it. I had a horrible experience with that! Unless you were really suicidal and really had no one else to call. But of course, this is just based on my one single experience.
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 20:04:38
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on June 28, 2003, at 12:45:43
> Well, Dinah,
>
> I hope your forever is longer than mine.Me too. :(
>
> I'm not having any fun right now, but I'm still here typing away. I have more hope than I've had in a long time. Sometimes not-so-good things end up being really OK.
>
I'm really glad. That's terrific. I'll try to hold on to that thought if I ever need it.> So how was the office? How was the traffic? What color are the walls?
>
Won't know till the end of next week. He told me about it, and printed a map of how to best get there. It's in a big shiny building in the big shiny business district. Yech. I'm not business district material.> What did you mean by: "He's growing as a therapist faster than I'm growing as a client I fear."?
>
Well, I'm glad he's growing as a therapist. I just wish I were growing faster. He used to have a real problem with dependent women, and whenever I discussed my fear of termination he got all defensive and angry. His stuff, by his own admission. I would argue with him about how he was misinterpreting what I said as a demand for forever therapy, when I was trying to discuss my fears. He's apparently accepted that and worked on his own issues, because he was really laid back and accepting this time. He teased me a bit about it, but not with any anger or irritation. So he's growing.> You know, I felt better when I figured out what I was depending on her to do. That let me start to work on a way to meet that need without her.
>
I depend on him to help me feel safe. I've never really known the feeling of safety from within, and only fleetingly from without. He swears that one day I will internalize that feeling of safety, and until then it's perfectly ok to feel dependent. Seems like a long shot to me.Thanks Fallsfalls. :)
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 20:14:56
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by noa on June 28, 2003, at 13:10:20
Oddly, I've managed my life so that things have been pretty permanent. My friends now (except my online ones) are the ones I had in middle and high school. I've worked at the same job for my entire working life. I lived at home till I got married to my high school sweetheart, whom I had dated for thirteen years. Obviously, stability is very important to me. lol. Even the little changes bother me though. Thanks for the book recommend.
I guess I have multiple sources of support, but they're not interchangeable, making each one indispensible in its own way. My husband is a wonderful life partner and coparent, I couldn't do without him. But he's not safe emotionally. I don't quite know how to explain that. I guess I don't have a lot of friends. My best real life friend died last year, but I didn't confide a lot in her either, although I could have. My dogs make me feel good.
Maybe I do need to widen that circle, although I'm not quite sure how. I've met some wonderful people here. I dunno. Wish I could have that backup therapist.
Posted by judy1 on June 29, 2003, at 11:26:56
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent? » noa, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 20:14:56
"Wish I could have that backup therapist."
Is that something that's financially a problem? If not, that's basically what I do (one's covered under insurance, the other is not), and it's been a really positive thing for me- more of a co-therapeutic situation though. I truly understand how a spouse cannot be emotionally safe- my ex was like that. It must have been difficult to lose your friend, and probably a lot more difficult to make more friends that you are able to trust. I've found that when I've trusted my female friends enough to discuss some of my problems, they come out with some amazing stuff too, it';s funny how we always feel the need to put our best faces on. Now, I have friends who will call me and ask to borrow meds until their's are re-filled and I swear I'm their part-time therapist:-) I hope your therp's new office works out well for you- judy
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2003, at 11:46:16
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by judy1 on June 29, 2003, at 11:26:56
Thanks Judy. I guess I always am the confided in in my real life relationships, rarely the confider. Safety issues? Not wanting to burden others?
As to the backup therapist, my therapist won't let me have one. He thinks I want to dilute the dependency or something (ok, he's right). At one point we almost got one, since he was out of town so much. We had one picked out and everything. But since the clinic has closed, all my hints fall on deaf ears. The person he had picked isn't going to do therapy anymore. And my therapist tends to get annoyed if I push on this subject. If he starts going out of town a lot again, I might ask directly again, instead of hinting.
Posted by yesac on June 29, 2003, at 12:24:50
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent? » judy1, posted by Dinah on June 29, 2003, at 11:46:16
>
> As to the backup therapist, my therapist won't let me have one.I sort of thought that having two therapists went against the fundamental ideas behind the therapeutic relationship - that it's about this one equal-trust relationship that you can work on your issues face-to-face. And that having 2 would complicate things because then you might b**ch to one therapist about the other instead of bringing forth your issues with the one.... etc etc.
Posted by yesac on June 29, 2003, at 12:30:31
In reply to Re: How can something be safe if it's not permanent?, posted by judy1 on June 29, 2003, at 11:26:56
> I've found that when I've trusted my female friends enough to discuss some of my problems, they come out with some amazing stuff too, it';s funny how we always feel the need to put our best faces on. Now, I have friends who will call me and ask to borrow meds until their's are re-filled and I swear I'm their part-time therapist
When I opened up with my sister last fall, things really changed in our relationship. Not to say that everything is perfect and open now, but we are able to discuss our "issues" and our medication and therapy and all that, not to mention our upbringing and why-we-are-the-way-we-are sort of things. It was so surprising to me and probably to her to learn of each other's struggles. Now we have let down our walls a little bit. Before we were so guarded and unaware. Now we don't have to fight it *quite* so alone.
Posted by Dinah on June 30, 2003, at 8:15:56
In reply to backup therapist, posted by yesac on June 29, 2003, at 12:24:50
Yeah, I know. Sigh.
I just wish I had a kindly aunt to take care of me when my therapist/mom was out of town.
I get scared when I know he's not reachable.
Posted by Penny on June 30, 2003, at 8:29:02
In reply to Re: backup therapist » yesac, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2003, at 8:15:56
I know what you mean - I see mine tonight and then she's gone - I won't see her again until 2 weeks from today. I see my pdoc during that time, but not until the Friday before, and I'm debating about whether to make an appointment with the colleague covering for her, but I don't know if it would do any good. Just really feeling unstable right now, and it could be partly due to her vacation.
P
Posted by Dinah on June 30, 2003, at 8:31:20
In reply to Re: backup therapist » Dinah, posted by Penny on June 30, 2003, at 8:29:02
If you've got the chance, why not do that? Do you know this colleague? Is it the one who usually covers for her? It might not make a difference this time, but you could get to know her a bit in case you need her one day.
Posted by Penny on June 30, 2003, at 8:41:16
In reply to Re: backup therapist » Penny, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2003, at 8:31:20
I don't know him - I've met him once or twice, while in the waiting room, and he seems very nice. One of my problems is that he's MALE and that's a big issue for me. Of course, my pdoc is male too, but that wasn't my choice. Not that I have a problem with it now.
Apparently this therapist is the one who usually covers for her, and I think I may just need someone to touch base with early next week, especially after the holiday weekend.
Why does every day have to be such a battle?????
Posted by yesac on June 30, 2003, at 12:20:49
In reply to Re: backup therapist » yesac, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2003, at 8:15:56
> I get scared when I know he's not reachable.
Yes exactly how I feel. It feels so much better just to know that they are there IF you need them, not unreachable. A few weeks ago I wasn't going to see my therapist for a little over a week and I wasn't sure if I could handle it so I made an extra appt with my psychiatrist to hold me over.
Now, I saw my therapist Friday and won't see her till next Wed. This is actually because I am going out of town, not her. I think it will be okay since I'm feeling okay these days... and also I reassure myself that I can still reach her or my psychiatrist while I am away. I don't have to be here.
I've had therapists in the past who didn't work certain days and I hated that. Now I feel so lucky because my psychiatrist has his home number on his message and you can call him nights/weekends if you really need to, which I have several times. I am SO GLAD that I found him!! I just can't believe that there are psychiatrists who are so good. That's why the rape dream was so disturbing... my fear of betrayal.
This is the end of the thread.
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