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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JohnX2 on March 6, 2002, at 2:02:02
Hi,Haven't posted here before. gonna ramble
so watch out.I'm worn torn, tired, pooped, beaten up.
But I'm left here standing back on my feet.Took me 3 yrs and many physicians to get good
treatment and feel pretty comfortable with
where I can go with my life.But now I feel sad. Sad because there are so
many people out there going through what I did
who maybe don't have the resolve/resources
whatever to get treatment and attain
a dignified quality of life.Which is really what this is about for me,
reevaluating what it is to have "quality of life".I was on the fast track with my career, making
lots of money, nice education. But did I really
stop and enjoy the little things? No. Not till
after this last episode where I finally had to
leave work on disability. Then I had a few
swings back in to major depression after mania.
I stopped obsessing about getting my career back
on track. Started to think about little things
that are important to make me happy on a day by
day basis. I got a flat tire and walked a few
miles to the gas station to get a can of air to
pump up my tire. I never would have done this
before, even when I felt well. I just wanted to
enjoy being alive, looking at the trees, watching
other smiling people with their babies. It felt
good.So now I feel better. I realize a lot of this
is psychological as well as chemical. Now that
I am not hyperfocused on getting myself well and
rejuvinated by enjoying these new things to
treasure in life, I feel so sad and guilty that other people aren't
feeling well to experience the same.Despondant.
John
Posted by beardedlady on March 6, 2002, at 6:29:32
In reply to feel guilty because I feel better., posted by JohnX2 on March 6, 2002, at 2:02:02
Oh, John, c'mon. You're so much smarter than that! Here you are, helping hundreds (or at least tens) of people in this discussion group, instead of abandoning them--er, us. What's to feel guilty about? How much can you help when you're needy and suffering? So you're now giving back to the community. That's a good thing.
It's an especially good thing because you're a success story. It's one thing to take advice from folks who've been through hell. It's quite another to take it from someone who actually came back.
You've paid your dues, John. And even if you upped and left right this minute to take a camping trip to southern Utah (and well you should!), we'd stand up and cheer, "Hurray for John! He is John again!"
Take care of yourself now. Smile at babies. Smell the flowers just starting to sprout. Eat a really nice salad at a great restaurant. (Hell, order the lobster.) Buddha said, "Pleasure is brief as a flash of lightning, or an autumn shower, only for a moment." Savor every bit of it. It is a present for you, and you don't even have to share it. But you have to unwrap it.
Your slightly older, slightly wiser pal,
beardy : )>
Posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 11:09:44
In reply to feel guilty because I feel better., posted by JohnX2 on March 6, 2002, at 2:02:02
>
> Hi,
>
> Haven't posted here before. gonna ramble
> so watch out.
>
> I'm worn torn, tired, pooped, beaten up.
> But I'm left here standing back on my feet.
>
> Took me 3 yrs and many physicians to get good
> treatment and feel pretty comfortable with
> where I can go with my life.
>
> But now I feel sad. Sad because there are so
> many people out there going through what I did
> who maybe don't have the resolve/resources
> whatever to get treatment and attain
> a dignified quality of life.
>
> Which is really what this is about for me,
> reevaluating what it is to have "quality of life".
>
> I was on the fast track with my career, making
> lots of money, nice education. But did I really
> stop and enjoy the little things? No. Not till
> after this last episode where I finally had to
> leave work on disability. Then I had a few
> swings back in to major depression after mania.
> I stopped obsessing about getting my career back
> on track. Started to think about little things
> that are important to make me happy on a day by
> day basis. I got a flat tire and walked a few
> miles to the gas station to get a can of air to
> pump up my tire. I never would have done this
> before, even when I felt well. I just wanted to
> enjoy being alive, looking at the trees, watching
> other smiling people with their babies. It felt
> good.
>
> So now I feel better. I realize a lot of this
> is psychological as well as chemical. Now that
> I am not hyperfocused on getting myself well and
> rejuvinated by enjoying these new things to
> treasure in life, I feel so sad and guilty that other people aren't
> feeling well to experience the same.
>
> Despondant.
>
> John
Hi John,
Believe me, i can understand perfectly what you're going through.
I'm not feeling that good at the moment, ( anhedonia again! ) but i did experience a few good, rather promising days : i felt like i was about to come out of that damn tunell.
I had a few moments during which i could feel life again: feelings weren't so strong like before, but i was confident that if only i could have held back those feelings a little longer, they would have grown stronger and stronger
I was sure if those moments had persisted i'd have came back to normal life wihin a few months.I felt kind of guilty also. I was thinking about all that people who have been left behind me in sorrow and despair.
You know, human being are very presumptuous creatures.
They think they deserve what they have when they feel good. They don't even think about the eventuality of loosing everything they have.
They think they can control their own destiny.
I used to think that too.
After years of self interrogation, psychoterapy, and meds switching and i don't believe in that anymore. I've seen a lot of immature and neurotic people who have recovered from depression. A woman i used to know had a spontenous recovery after two years (lucky her). Despite her 36 years, she was very childlish and immature: she was envious and had a horrible temper also. She believed she had healed because of a silly new-age like psychotherapy. She insisted i had to do the same. When i said no, she would say something like: "Well, if you go on like that, you'll never recover: you don't feel the energy of the universe because you're egocentric and you never question yourself! "
You're not like that woman John, you're a very sensitive and caring person and you're humble enough to realize that sometimes pure luck or unexpected events that we don't seem to control play a role in the recovery process.
Don't get me wrong, sure hard work it's a very important part of this process, but sometimes we don't know exactly what did the trick.
Don't feel guilty, enjoy it! Don't turn backwards and think about yourself : you deserve it.
Bump in from time to time to let us know how you're doing.My best wishes
Anna Laura
Posted by beardedlady on March 6, 2002, at 11:46:30
In reply to Re: feel guilty because I feel better., posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 11:09:44
>I had a few moments during which i could feel life again: feelings weren't so strong like before, but i was confident that if only i could have held back those feelings a little longer, they would have grown stronger and stronger
My dad thinks that if he calls his favorite ball teams "losers" and "idiots," they'll win their games. I always seem to sleep better when I wear this origami crane necklace and amorphous ring I have. But these things have nothing to do with each other. Holding back your feelings when you feel good doesn't lead to better mental health. In fact, studies support pretending to feel good! That old notion that smiling is contagious? It's sort of true. If you act as if all is well, you sometimes get close to feeling it. Sometimes. Nothing is foolproof.
> You know, human being are very presumptuous creatures.
> They think they deserve what they have when they feel good. They don't even think about the eventuality of loosing everything they have.And why don't they deserve the good stuff? And why should you sit around when you're feeling good thinking about the possibility of feeling bad again? That's certainly going to ensure you will feel bad again!
> A woman i used to know had a spontenous recovery after two years (lucky her). Despite her 36 years, she was very childlish and immature: she was envious and had a horrible temper also. She believed she had healed because of a silly new-age like psychotherapy. She insisted i had to do the same. When i said no, she would say something like: "Well, if you go on like that, you'll never recover: you don't feel the energy of the universe because you're egocentric and you never question yourself!"
I'm not trying to be critical, but getting better--whether by new age goofball psychotherapy or pills that make other parts of you sick or Jesus or Buddha--is a terrific thing. So she's self-righteous about it. Maybe she is just trying to help you! When we stumble upon a treatment that works for us, we want to share it with the world.
You don't have to be open to her way of thinking, but you do have to believe that something can help. Or nothing will. And that is the truth. If so much of physical health is mental, why can't much of mental health be mental? (Mental health is certainly physical; exercise definitely improves symptoms of depression, if you can get motivated enough to do it!)
> Don't feel guilty, enjoy it!
Take this advice yourself, Anna Laura. I hope things begin to look up for you.
beardy : )>
Posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 13:08:09
In reply to Re: feel guilty because I feel better. » Anna Laura, posted by beardedlady on March 6, 2002, at 11:46:30
> >I had a few moments during which i could feel life again: feelings weren't so strong like before, but i was confident that if only i could have held back those feelings a little longer, they would have grown stronger and stronger
>
> My dad thinks that if he calls his favorite ball teams "losers" and "idiots," they'll win their games. I always seem to sleep better when I wear this origami crane necklace and amorphous ring I have. But these things have nothing to do with each other. Holding back your feelings when you feel good doesn't lead to better mental health. In fact, studies support pretending to feel good! That old notion that smiling is contagious? It's sort of true. If you act as if all is well, you sometimes get close to feeling it. Sometimes. Nothing is foolproof.
>
> > You know, human being are very presumptuous creatures.
> > They think they deserve what they have when they feel good. They don't even think about the eventuality of loosing everything they have.
>
>
> > A woman i used to know had a spontenous recovery after two years (lucky her). Despite her 36 years, she was very childlish and immature: she was envious and had a horrible temper also. She believed she had healed because of a silly new-age like psychotherapy. She insisted i had to do the same.
>
> beardy : )>
O.K., english not being my language, i must have said something misleading
when i said "holding back emotions" i didn't mean i was "controlling" them: i probably chose the wrong term. I wanted to say : "if those moments were going to last i'd have been recovered." That's it. I wasn't trying to control anything whatsoever, i was just enjoying it. O. K.?
Pretending to feel good doesn't work, as you just fool yourself around and you end up loosing the intimate contact with your emotions, sensations and gut feelings, that are so precious as they're telling you what's best for you and what you need most at the moment. I know what i'm talking about cause i've been there: i lost precious years because of that attitude."And why don't they deserve the good stuff? And why should you sit around when you're feeling good thinking about the possibility of feeling bad again? That's certainly going to ensure you will feel bad again!"
>
I was talking about the "ordinary" people WHO NEVER felt bad, not about depressed people.
I was talking about egotistic ass****es who give their wellbeing for granted.I'm not trying to be critical, but getting better--whether by new age goofball psychotherapy or pills that make other parts of you sick or Jesus or Buddha--is a terrific thing. So she's self-righteous about it. Maybe she is just trying to help you! When we stumble upon a treatment that works for us, we want to share it with the world.
>It wasn't the treatment that worked: it was a SPONTANEOUS recovery.
Thousands of people experience that every year: they just feel better within months. That's what happened to her. I believe that anything can virtually help, but that wasn't her case for sure.> You don't have to be open to her way of thinking, but you do have to believe that something can help. Or nothing will. And that is the truth. If so much of physical health is mental, why can't much of mental health be mental? (Mental health is certainly physical; exercise definitely improves symptoms of depression, if you can get motivated enough to do it!)
>
O.K., i've been suffering from depression for elevn years so far, i've been mad, i fought terrible battles, excercise did nothing for me.
Don't you think i'd have thought about it already? Did i need you telling me that ?>When i said no, she would say something like: "Well, if you go on like that, you'll never recover: you don't feel the energy of the universe because you're egocentric and you never question yourself!"
>
>
> Take this advice yourself, Anna Laura.
What?Am I supposed to take that advice? What do you know of me? NOTHING.
And you're telling me i should follow and advice from a person you don't even know! So i should go ahead and accept a suggestion from a crazy, childlish, egocentric bitch projecting her difects and flaws on me?
I think i've had enough. I don't need this crap.
I'm leaving the board. I can't take this anymore.
Posted by beardedlady on March 6, 2002, at 13:20:11
In reply to O.K., I'VE HAD ENOUGH, posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 13:08:09
Gosh. I had no idea I was saying anything that would make anybody angry! I obviously misunderstood your whole post, and then you misunderstood mine. I wasn't telling you to exercise or prescribing anything at all for you, personally. When I said, "Take this advice yourself," it was not said in any confrontational, antagonistic way. I said it because I thought you were being so hard on yourself, so very low. I was hoping you would feel better. That's all. Really.
beardy : (>
Posted by Mark H. on March 6, 2002, at 14:32:28
In reply to O.K., I'VE HAD ENOUGH, posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 13:08:09
Anna Laura,
Please don't leave over a misunderstanding. Your presence here means so much to me and to others. The very qualities of passionate caring that make you such a wonderful person also make you vulnerable to being hurt by what others write. We all have experienced what you feel right now, believe me.
It's good to take breaks from the board to regain perspective, but please don't give up on us.
With sincere appreciation,
Mark H.
Posted by mair on March 6, 2002, at 15:06:45
In reply to Re: PLEASE DON'T LEAVE » Anna Laura, posted by Mark H. on March 6, 2002, at 14:32:28
Posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 16:02:56
In reply to Terribly sorry! » Anna Laura, posted by beardedlady on March 6, 2002, at 13:20:11
> Gosh. I had no idea I was saying anything that would make anybody angry! I obviously misunderstood your whole post, and then you misunderstood mine. I wasn't telling you to exercise or prescribing anything at all for you, personally. When I said, "Take this advice yourself," it was not said in any confrontational, antagonistic way. I said it because I thought you were being so hard on yourself, so very low. I was hoping you would feel better. That's all. Really.
>
> beardy : (>O.K. Beardy
It must have been a mutual misunderstanding.
Posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 16:18:20
In reply to Re: PLEASE DON'T LEAVE » Anna Laura, posted by Mark H. on March 6, 2002, at 14:32:28
Thank you Mark for your encouragement : i really appreciated your words...
blessings
Anna Laura
Posted by sar on March 6, 2002, at 17:21:35
In reply to Re: PLEASE DON'T LEAVE, posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 16:18:20
Anna Laura,
no! please don't leave. you've contributed entirely too much to just leave because of a misunderstanding with one person! do you remember when i said i imagine you looking like the Italian version of Patty Hearst? put on your beret and sunglasses and smoke a cigarette, girl. let it go!
i want you here.
love,
sar
Posted by JohnX2 on March 6, 2002, at 17:34:50
In reply to Re: feel guilty because I feel better., posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 11:09:44
Hi Anna Laura,Thanks for your kind and well thought out
reply. I don't have the refined skills to express
my thoughts/emotions as well as you guys. This
is a gift you should charish.regards,
John
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
> Believe me, i can understand perfectly what you're going through.
> I'm not feeling that good at the moment, ( anhedonia again! ) but i did experience a few good, rather promising days : i felt like i was about to come out of that damn tunell.
> I had a few moments during which i could feel life again: feelings weren't so strong like before, but i was confident that if only i could have held back those feelings a little longer, they would have grown stronger and stronger
> I was sure if those moments had persisted i'd have came back to normal life wihin a few months.I felt kind of guilty also. I was thinking about all that people who have been left behind me in sorrow and despair.
> You know, human being are very presumptuous creatures.
> They think they deserve what they have when they feel good. They don't even think about the eventuality of loosing everything they have.
> They think they can control their own destiny.
> I used to think that too.
> After years of self interrogation, psychoterapy, and meds switching and i don't believe in that anymore. I've seen a lot of immature and neurotic people who have recovered from depression. A woman i used to know had a spontenous recovery after two years (lucky her). Despite her 36 years, she was very childlish and immature: she was envious and had a horrible temper also. She believed she had healed because of a silly new-age like psychotherapy. She insisted i had to do the same. When i said no, she would say something like: "Well, if you go on like that, you'll never recover: you don't feel the energy of the universe because you're egocentric and you never question yourself! "
> You're not like that woman John, you're a very sensitive and caring person and you're humble enough to realize that sometimes pure luck or unexpected events that we don't seem to control play a role in the recovery process.
> Don't get me wrong, sure hard work it's a very important part of this process, but sometimes we don't know exactly what did the trick.
> Don't feel guilty, enjoy it! Don't turn backwards and think about yourself : you deserve it.
> Bump in from time to time to let us know how you're doing.
>
> My best wishes
>
> Anna Laura
Posted by JohnX2 on March 6, 2002, at 17:40:08
In reply to Re: feel guilty because I feel better., posted by beardedlady on March 6, 2002, at 6:29:32
Hi Beardy,Long time no talk. ;)
Thanks for the nice note. I feel better.
You people are so kind. I have had some of my emotions
bottled up and blunted for so long, I just need
to learn to deal with the good ones I am
rediscovering as well as some others I don't
generally feel (guilt). Isn't life strange?Best Wishes,
John> Oh, John, c'mon. You're so much smarter than that! Here you are, helping hundreds (or at least tens) of people in this discussion group, instead of abandoning them--er, us. What's to feel guilty about? How much can you help when you're needy and suffering? So you're now giving back to the community. That's a good thing.
>
> It's an especially good thing because you're a success story. It's one thing to take advice from folks who've been through hell. It's quite another to take it from someone who actually came back.
>
> You've paid your dues, John. And even if you upped and left right this minute to take a camping trip to southern Utah (and well you should!), we'd stand up and cheer, "Hurray for John! He is John again!"
>
> Take care of yourself now. Smile at babies. Smell the flowers just starting to sprout. Eat a really nice salad at a great restaurant. (Hell, order the lobster.) Buddha said, "Pleasure is brief as a flash of lightning, or an autumn shower, only for a moment." Savor every bit of it. It is a present for you, and you don't even have to share it. But you have to unwrap it.
>
> Your slightly older, slightly wiser pal,
>
> beardy : )>
Posted by IsoM on March 6, 2002, at 19:34:36
In reply to Re: PLEASE DON'T LEAVE, posted by sar on March 6, 2002, at 17:21:35
Anna Laura, I'm going to answer your e-mail you sent a couple of weeks back. I've not been able to use the computer during the past 2 weeks & I need to sit & think to write a thoughtful reply to you.
That cleared up (in case you wondered why I hadn't written back yet), please take other people's messages lightly.
All too often, a person will write a thoughtless reply not intending to hurt, but full of daggers for us. Many people mean to be kind but have no idea of the hell others have lived in & say all the wrong things instead. It's the difference with the English words 'sympathise' & 'empathise'. One may sympathise with another's situation but have no idea of what it feels like, how brutal it can be. Those who empathise are the ones who can truly 'feel' the pain too. A lot of people try to extend sympathy to others but few people feel empathy for others. It requires taking on another's suffering & it generally means that one has had to suffer too. It's a fairly rare quality, I've found.I know from personal experience, that when one is in pain, trite cheery messages feel like salt & vinegar in an open wound. They're better left unsaid. I, too, would hate to see you go. You bring a perspective to us all from a very tragic background. You help others & I hope, we can help you sometimes too. I value your opinions highly.
Posted by trouble on March 6, 2002, at 22:09:11
In reply to Re: PLEASE DON'T LEAVE, posted by sar on March 6, 2002, at 17:21:35
Hi Anna Laura,
I add my name to the list of people who look forward to your posts. You are one of a number of people I feel I am getting to know better, your exit would be a personal loss. I admire your fire!
trouble
Posted by trouble on March 6, 2002, at 22:16:00
In reply to for Anna Laura, posted by IsoM on March 6, 2002, at 19:34:36
IsoM,
That was the loveliest compare/contrast definition of sympathy/empathy I've ever seen.
I've always wondered how to differentiate the concepts, knowing there were important distinctions somewhere in there.
After reading your post I felt its truth and completeness in my gut and will quote you on it in my mind for days.trouble
Posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 23:52:11
In reply to for Anna Laura, posted by IsoM on March 6, 2002, at 19:34:36
Hi folks
I just woke up (16 past 6 a.m. here oversea time) and saw your posts; don't you worry, i'm not going to leave.
I don't know if it's the effexor or what, but my emotions are not so blunted anymore. I don't know what hell it's happening with me, but i'm experiencing "exaggerated" reactions; well perhaps i know what's going on : all the bottled up emotions are coming on the surface again: i've been swallowing the pain for all the injustices and wrongs i've suffered for so long that i get somehow "vindictive" and rancorous over nothing.
Now that the negative emotions have finally appeared i'm waiting for the good ones: cigarettes, sex and so many other things still taste bitter.
I probably look childlish, but it's o.k. for me as long as i don't feel apathetic anymore; i guess it's kind of positive even if i realize it might be somehow "alarming" for some people.
Well, at least this is a tangible proof of my emotional investment in this group.
You guys are wonderful people and i'm so sorry you had to witness my insane reaction.
Thank you for accepting me as i am now.blessings and hugs
Anna Laura
Beardy, i'm not angry at you; i know you didn't mean to hurt.
Posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 23:59:59
In reply to Re: PLEASE DON'T LEAVE, posted by sar on March 6, 2002, at 17:21:35
> do you remember when i said i imagine you looking like the Italian version of Patty Hearst? put on your beret and sunglasses and smoke a cigarette, girl. let it go!
>
> i want you here.
>
> love,
> sar
Sar, i can't believe this! My father used to call me Patty Hearst! Man, this is weird!
P.S.I wear berets and smoke cigarettes also: how did you know? Is this Truman Show or something?
Posted by Shar on March 10, 2002, at 13:53:04
In reply to Re: for Isom, trouble, sar, everybody, posted by Anna Laura on March 6, 2002, at 23:52:11
Posted by ST on March 11, 2002, at 4:31:11
In reply to Thanks for staying here (nm) » Anna Laura, posted by Shar on March 10, 2002, at 13:53:04
nm
This is the end of the thread.
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