![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 10:51:22
In reply to Re: Verbal abuse » trouble, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 9:02:43
Thanks Dinah,
I can't automatically reject your response, given your consistent reasonableness. But man. I'll talk to my psychologist about these things too. Maybe I've yet to come to my senses after having read the site 3 hours ago, being mad that the ideas presented weren't, um, credited to feminist influence, just presented arbitrarily, as if these are and always have been the rules of engagement, no defense, we'll just act like nothing here is controversial and lay down the law, yes that's how I see it and it's the sort of thing that makes me see red.
But those nine basic rights, just to mention the ones that upset me the most, and if you don't want to hash it out that's cool, but you made it personal, you spoke of how you want things to be in your own life, even implying that your husband misses the mark, and I've been defending their characteristic aofishness so of course this is a can of worms.
Right #3: Not to have her 'reality' challenged. Their quotation marks. I think that's revealing. Also, this rule was italicized. Must be very important. To someone.
Not having your reality challenged is one way to stay crazy. Outside perspectives being the thing that influences one's reality. I just don't understand what they mean by this rule, but it brings to mind imagery of a spoiled princess.
Lots of decent people have supported nefarious social policies, until confronted w/ other views.
Therapy is all about challenging fixed beliefs, what are they doing in therapy if they want to circumvent confrontation?#4: The right to have her feelings and experiences acknowledged as 'real'. Again,their quotes. As opposed to what? Again, it conjures up images of stone tablet veracity surrounding all her stuff.
#5: To receive a sincere apology if she experiences verbal abuse. Italicized. Compulsory sincerity? There's no such thing. They would rather have an appearance of contriteness than a mutual exchange. It's a projection-Revenge of the Stepford Wives.
It makes my blood boil to hear these restrictions defined as a means to intimacy. That is typical feminist cant. Intimacy and policing do not go together. Policing of behavior is a defense against intimacy.
I don't like the word RIGHT used in this fashion. It's ham-fisted hyperbole and intimidation. Do they know what rights are? I think they do. Do they care? No, I think they don't.
Finally, the right not to be criticized or judged. My mind reels.
But you agree w/ these terms of engagement? Well, I don't think you do. Just from reading your posts, nope, and I'm good at spotting women who follow this code of behavior and I don't get that from you. But I'm bewildered, I don't know what else to do but take these rights to my therapist today and see if he can help me see the light.
trouble
> I'm still working on my husband though. Of course, he isn't a paid professional.
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:37:34
In reply to Another book to recommend. Eventually., posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 2:01:53
I had to order the book immediately, just to give myself a good laugh. I'm sorry you're having such difficulty right now with your shrink- if you need to pull back emotionally, would he be willing to just write scripts? I had a period of time where I did that, and eventually we slowly started talking to each other, maybe something to think about? Take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:39:44
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experien, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 3:57:12
Thank you for the link, I need to spend some more time re-reading the article. There were definitely some things in there that were verbatim and kind of scary. Will write back soon- judy
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:47:23
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience? » judy1, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 8:48:17
I think the transference does refer to feelings of rage from my past, which I agree is helpful and isn't that what the shrink is striving for? I don't believe he would admit to the counter-transference, I see it because I have been a victim of it before (when my ex-shrink crossed boundaries and terminated) and I sought help from a psychologist who explained what had occurred. So I guess I feel he needs to acknowledge that along with the great # of times when he tells me I'm being 'over-sensitive'. If he accepts some responsibility maybe we could have a better relationship, but I don't see it happening. Like I said I lack the courage to confront and possibly lose him. Take care, judy
Posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 17:05:59
In reply to The very picture of evil, posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 7:35:58
My experience with abusive psychotherapists it's not about hysterical feminists or spoiled princesses, it's about real abuse:
WHAT IS REAL ABUSE? REAL ABUSE IS ABOUT:
1.Being threatened to be sent to a psychiatric hospital (just because I DARED to say the HER majesty the therapist wasn't right).
2. Being compelled to go to therapy session under threat (same as above). When i told her that i couldn't come 'cause there were no buses at that time she told me i had to walk. (i had to walk ten miles).
3. She stated that such a threat never took place just a few days later (this is about denying your own reality)
4. When i insisted, the psychotherapist told me i was suffering from a serious form of paranoid delirium (invalidation again)
I told her that i was going to leave cause i didn't want to put up with that shit anymore.
She told me that if i was going to leave i'd got really sick without her help and that i badly needed to be in therapy for at least ten years, otherwise i ran serious risks of becoming schizophrenic: (WITHOLDING INFORMATIONS)
I had been diagnosed as having a latent form of schizophrenia without me knowing nothing about it. When i asked her a few months before about my diagnosis she told me that i didn't have to worry since i suffered form a mild form of neurosis. I was suffering from major depression instead, but i had been unlucky enough to meet this lady when i searched for help.
Real abuse is about destroying someone else's life when you're supposed to help, it's about invalidating his/her reality and thoughts knowing that this person is too fragile to defend herself.
I could tell about a guy who had been diagnosed as schizophrenic by his psychoanalist, put in a psychiatric hospital against his will for years. His life was destroied.
I could tell you countless of these horror stories, but it would take too long. You could find the movie "Francis" quite instructive (it's a real story about the actress Frances Farmer who got a lobotomy for being rebellious). "Girl, interrupted " could give you a hint also (though i prefer the book).Least but not last, therapy abuse it's about totally lacking of empathy also.
Well, may be the word "empathetically" might sound a bit odd to you, but it's a frequently used word among educated persons, believe me.Thanks god someone is taking care of us, wether is the feminist movement, the ecological movement or the anarchist movement i wouldn't care less, as long as they're defending us from these wackos!
That's why we need the declaration of rights inside the therapy setting written on that site, no matter how stupid and useless it might sound.
As a matter of fact ,we need it as we need the declaration of human rights.
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:07:48
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience? » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:47:23
Judy,
Believe me. I really do understand.
One day when you are feeling up to it, let's start a thread of shrink stories. We can get all the venom out, end up finding their odd behaviors amusing instead of infuriating, and keep our relationships with them safer and more secure.Dinah
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:14:18
In reply to Re: Verbal abuse, posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 10:51:22
I love a good civil debate, Trouble. And you put your challenge so nicely. Just give me some time to print out your post and the site information and give some thought to the whole matter. And why don't you start a new thread with your therapist's thoughts on the matter.
And you never did answer my question about the MMPI. Is that one test you've never taken? (I don't mean that in a negative way. I take every test ever devised to find out what makes me tick. And I still haven't figured it out.)
Talk to you later,
Dinah
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 18:15:56
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 17:05:59
Dear Anna,
I cried when I read your post, for you and me and others 'hurt' by the system. I, too, was threatened by hospitalization several times- actually once the pdoc threatened to have a conservator appointed (he could do this w/o my presence)- I spent the entire week-end hiding in my closet expecting the police to come. I had a shrink who crossed sexual boundaries- I'm still recovering from that one. My list goes on and on- restraints and meds and almost ECT against my will. That I can trust my shrink to any degree now is kind of a miracle, so I stay and I'll try to work with him. The Hazelton sp? has a patients bill of rights and you can make out a type of will to protect your rights, maybe someone has the address? I'm sorry for what you've had to go through- judy
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 18:25:19
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience? » judy1, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:07:48
Thank you Dinah for your understanding. I think I may have gotten a little triggered by Anna's post- too many bad memories. But I do like the idea of putting it in an amusing context, I'm sure a lot of people have their stories. I'm off to comfort the baby (and be comforted)- judy
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:25:19
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 17:05:59
That was a terrible experience, Anna Laura. No one should be treated that way. And if I'm remembering correctly, it wasn't your only bad experience with mental health professionals?
Therapists have such a unique position of power in relationship to clients. Not only do they have influence on us personally in a very unequal relationship, but they also have the ability to label us and influence the way others see us.
Anyone with that kind of power should be held to a very high standard of ethics.
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:36:52
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience? » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 18:25:19
> Thank you Dinah for your understanding. I think I may have gotten a little triggered by Anna's post- too many bad memories. But I do like the idea of putting it in an amusing context, I'm sure a lot of people have their stories. I'm off to comfort the baby (and be comforted)- judy
Your last sentence gave me a warm glow. I'm so glad you are able to be comforted by as well as give comfort to your little one.
I just wanted to make clear that I was suggesting a thread about the mental health professionals with whom we basically have a good relationship and who we trust, but that on occasion show insensitivity and stupidity of monumental proportions. And who use Freudian terms to confuse and silence us. Things of that nature. But ones with whom we wish to keep a good and helpful relationship.
There is nothing remotely amusing about the stories of abuse that you and Anna Laura endured.
Posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:25:33
In reply to Re: Another book to recommend. Eventually. » trouble, posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:37:34
> I had to order the book immediately, just to give myself a good laugh. I'm sorry you're having such difficulty right now with your shrink- if you need to pull back emotionally, would he be willing to just write scripts? I had a period of time where I did that, and eventually we slowly started talking to each other, maybe something to think about? Take care, judy
Thanks for the tip, do you mind telling me more about how you went about this? My pdoc and I have such a weird dynamic I'm at a loss as to how to
approach him about my new hesitancy. thanks, trouble.
Posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:34:51
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 17:05:59
> My experience with abusive psychotherapists it's not about hysterical feminists or spoiled princesses, it's about real abuse:
>Well sure, but your pdoc sounds crazy. I wasn't attacking your experience, sorry if you took it that way.
Under number three below, in my opinion she was lying.
By the way Frances Farmer is on my top ten lists of contemporary role models, her book WILL THERE REALLY BE A MORNING is a hoot, esp her glorious homophobia and the way she erefers to her psychotics episodes as a "smash-up".
Take care.
trouble
>
> 1.Being threatened to be sent to a psychiatric hospital (just because I DARED to say the HER majesty the therapist wasn't right).
> 2. Being compelled to go to therapy session under threat (same as above). When i told her that i couldn't come 'cause there were no buses at that time she told me i had to walk. (i had to walk ten miles).
> 3. She stated that such a threat never took place just a few days later (this is about denying your own reality)
> 4. When i insisted, the psychotherapist told me i was suffering from a serious form of paranoid delirium (invalidation again)
> I told her that i was going to leave cause i didn't want to put up with that shit anymore.
> She told me that if i was going to leave i'd got really sick without her help and that i badly needed to be in therapy for at least ten years, otherwise i ran serious risks of becoming schizophrenic: (WITHOLDING INFORMATIONS)
> I had been diagnosed as having a latent form of schizophrenia without me knowing nothing about it. When i asked her a few months before about my diagnosis she told me that i didn't have to worry since i suffered form a mild form of neurosis. I was suffering from major depression instead, but i had been unlucky enough to meet this lady when i searched for help.
> Real abuse is about destroying someone else's life when you're supposed to help, it's about invalidating his/her reality and thoughts knowing that this person is too fragile to defend herself.
> I could tell about a guy who had been diagnosed as schizophrenic by his psychoanalist, put in a psychiatric hospital against his will for years. His life was destroied.
> I could tell you countless of these horror stories, but it would take too long. You could find the movie "Francis" quite instructive (it's a real story about the actress Frances Farmer who got a lobotomy for being rebellious). "Girl, interrupted " could give you a hint also (though i prefer the book).
>
> Least but not last, therapy abuse it's about totally lacking of empathy also.
> Well, may be the word "empathetically" might sound a bit odd to you, but it's a frequently used word among educated persons, believe me.
>
> Thanks god someone is taking care of us, wether is the feminist movement, the ecological movement or the anarchist movement i wouldn't care less, as long as they're defending us from these wackos!
> That's why we need the declaration of rights inside the therapy setting written on that site, no matter how stupid and useless it might sound.
> As a matter of fact ,we need it as we need the declaration of human rights.
Posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:42:24
In reply to Re: Give me a little while » trouble, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:14:18
> I love a good civil debate, Trouble. And you put your challenge so nicely. Just give me some time to print out your post and the site information and give some thought to the whole matter. And why don't you start a new thread with your therapist's thoughts on the matter.
> And you never did answer my question about the MMPI. Is that one test you've never taken?Hi Dinah,
Thanks for your friendly answere, you really are a friend in my cybermind and I was worried yesterday that I may have threatened our relationship.
You aren't going to like what my psychologist had to say about the abuse webssite, basically he made me feel I was on the right track, but he and I are really more about dealing w/ my own verbally abusive patterns and that's what we talked about yesterday, how there were 2 times last week when I wasn't nasty toward people under circumstances I would normally have ripped them a new one. This is progress.
I actually did respond to that MMPI post and wondered howcome I hadn't heard back from you. I may have posted it wrong, I still have problems w/ the technicalities on psb, so I'll find it when I get home from work tonite and get back to you. Cheers, trouble.
Posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:57:03
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil » Anna Laura, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:25:19
> That was a terrible experience, Anna Laura. No one should be treated that way. And if I'm remembering correctly, it wasn't your only bad experience with mental health professionals?
> Therapists have such a unique position of power in relationship to clients. Not only do they have influence on us personally in a very unequal relationship, but they also have the ability to label us and influence the way others see us.
> Anyone with that kind of power should be held to a very high standard of ethics.Ok folks, here's another hot potato dagnabbit.
IMHO the whole "unequal power" dynamic btwn psychiatry and patients is another feminist myth promulgated for political purposes that serve no purpose but the propagandization of terminal female victimhood.
I am very conversant w/ the history of psychiatry and it is a horror story. But I am not going to let these women replace the doctor's boot on my neck w/ their own, and this unequal power thing is way too complicated to just accept that yep, that's what happens, you have to be on guard, it could happen to any one of us. No.
Listen my gramma had a lobotomy, I've seen my loved ones taken to the psych ward in handcuffs, I read WOMEN AND MADNESS I know what's out there. I could get hit by a bus by walking outside but I learned a long time ago to look before crossing the street.
This conversation is just beginning, isn't it?
I have to go be w/ an Alzheimer's patient now but when I get home I'll make a toast to civility and then pounce on my computer.
Take care,
trouble
Posted by Mark H. on February 19, 2002, at 10:04:02
In reply to Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience?, posted by judy1 on February 16, 2002, at 10:52:46
Dear Friend,
First, my apologies for not having time this morning to read through all the replies already written.
Judy, I think we all fall into two broad categories: those of us who are willing to look at our transference/counter-transference issues, and those who are in denial that they exist.
I believe we create these situations because they are what we need to work on. If we have chosen our therapists wisely, then they hold the boundaries for us when ours dissolve and (for really skillful therapists) they test us to see if we will do the same.
When there's clarity and no dependence, then we graduate, at least until we're ready for more assistance. I think taking breaks from therapy is analogous to resting between physical workouts, and just as crucial to success.
The ideal state -- and we all achieve it at times -- is when we can be faced with inappropriate but powerful desire and opportunity, acknowledge and feel and even (verbally) express those primal urges and longings in a manner appropriate to the situation, and still maintain our values and impulse control in determining our behavior (including mental behavior as well as physical).
Without desire and the opportunity to consummate it, we are still speculating, making predictions based almost solely on intellect, which often is a set-up for self-betrayal. We know we are winning when we can say "no" without denying our feelings, and do it out of love and respect for ourselves as well as the other person.
I don't know if most therapists can handle this level of interaction -- professionally or personally. Yet regardless of technique and their own issues, I think a good therapist will lead us there to help us be strong on our own.
With respect,
Mark H.
Posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 13:45:55
In reply to Re: Another book to recommend. Eventually., posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:25:33
> Thanks for the tip, do you mind telling me more about how you went about this? My pdoc and I have such a weird dynamic I'm at a loss as to how to
> approach him about my new hesitancy. thanks, trouble.Actually, I e-mailed him- I really do have problems face-to-face, a frown on his part and I'm convinced he wants me dead (and that's a slight exaggeration). If not e-mail, maybe a note or letter explaining your feelings, but saying you feel he understands your needs medically and you would like to continue to see him once a month? for that. I can't imagine him not agreeing to that scenario. He hasn't lost a patient then, just slowed things down until you feel ready to go forward. Wishing you the best of luck- judy
Posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 14:02:30
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience?, posted by Mark H. on February 19, 2002, at 10:04:02
Dear Mark,
Thank you for your beautifully written response. I feel I have found the right therapist(s)- I have a psychiatrist, male, who does meds and continues with therapy despite a female psychologist that I am now seeing. She has a lot of experience with self injury and dissociation which he lacked and admitted to. In a sense I think I have a re-parenting dyad happening here, which may be helpful for someone with my background. I am curious if you reached the state you described with your own therapist, or is it a journey you are still on? And how did you handle the inevitable breaks in the road, was it a joint effort or do you feel your therapist put more energy in fixing them (assuming you lacked the skills to do so- which I do)? Take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 14:06:19
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience?, posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 14:02:30
Posted by Mark H. on February 19, 2002, at 16:31:31
In reply to previous message was for Mark H (nm), posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 14:06:19
Dear Judy,
Thank you for asking. Sue and I "graduated" from therapy with our principal therapist in 1984, at which time we became close friends and extended family with him and his wife (not close in the seeing one another often sense, but in the always including one another in family holiday get-togethers and occasional outings sense).
Sue and I continued with other therapies and paths of personal growth, but until about 1997, it never occured to us to see him professionally once again.
However, with my then-deepening four-year depression, we realized that it might help if we went back to the beginning, either separately for individual support, and/or together as a couple. So we tried both.
It was hard for all three of us to decide whether he should still be our therapist. Could he forget our friendship of almost two decades (Sue's relationship with him stretches back into the late 70s) long enough to still be effective as a psychotherapist? We agreed to give it a try.
At first, he wanted me in group as a co-trainer and co-therapist. This proved personally unsuccessful, in no small part because I rarely focused on my own issues while wearing that hat. However, by changing groups, I was also able to change roles and to drop any pretense of being there as a counselor, when I was definitely there for therapy!
Over time, the greatest challenge proved to be our fundamental difference in values. As practicing Vajrayana Buddhists, our world view is very different from that of humanistic psychology. At first, this worked to everyone's advantage by helping to clarify underlying assumptions about what outcomes would be useful.
I don't mean to be vague here, I'm just trying to avoid claiming one way is "right" and another "wrong." I don't think that was the case at all; rather, his style of psychotherapy is observably effective for many, many intelligent, strong and highly capable people. Nevertheless, the very sense of "self" is in complete conflict with my religion. At some point, one must choose one's path and stop dabbling in whatever comes along (well, I should add, or suffer/enjoy the consequences of dabbling -- again, it's not my place to judge this except for myself).
One of the excellent aspects was our ability to step in and out of our roles as therapist and therapand to discuss the dynamics between us -- what was working and what wasn't. We could be totally at odds during group, then afterwards debrief each other on the interaction and admit our mistakes and successes.
The terminal occurrence for me was a simple mistake on both of our parts. In his system of therapy, he believes that it is healthy and useful to express one's anger in a civil but clear and direct manner as soon as it arises. I resisted any such notion as absurd, but because I trust him based on knowing many of his successes, I decided to give it a try.
Within about 2 or 3 weeks of practicing the expression of "mild irritation" as he called it (in May 2000), I experienced completely uncontrollable inner rage, accompanied by almost constant images of death and dismemberment. I called my psychiatrist and told his receptionist I needed to see him right away.
Fortunately, Scott and others on this forum had much more experience with this sort of mixed hypomanic state than I did and they gave me great advice. It felt quite psychotic and very dangerous to me, but to primary bipolars what I experienced may have seemed relatively mild.
So I took Zyprexa for about a week to 10 days, and all was well. My psychiatrist told me something very interesting, and both my therapist and I learned an important lesson: you don't ask bipolars of any stripe to "express" their "mild irritations" or anger. What it does is kindle rage. The bipolar mind has no idea what "releasing anger by stating what's on your mind" means; it simply jumps from one level of anger to the next, until it is a mental and emotional firestorm that rages out of control.
As for your core question, have I achieved the state I speak of, the answer is that I have not achieved the stability with it that I would like. While my physical behavior is almost always appropriate, my thoughts and speech frequently are not. However, I've worked hard to clarify my values, and when those values are in conflict with my impulses, my values still win out.
I hope eventually that I no longer blurt out whatever is on my mind, and beyond that, I finally reach a point when I will no longer indulge negative or unhelpful thinking. The key word there is "indulge." Perhaps negative thoughts will always arise; the skill I seek is to be able to allow them to come and go without forming judgments about them, attachments or aversion.
I remember something that came to me when I was helping other people with their issues (before my severe depression). It is that the father's job is always to find his daughter completely attractive and to actively protect her from that attraction at the same time. It is our *duty* as healthy adults neither to deny nor to act on the impulses we have that would harm others.
To suppress and deny those impulses is to invite self-betrayal and loss of control (for instance, under the influence of alcohol or drugs), or even illnesses such as cancer that may arise from unresolved inner conflict (and what else is depression at that level?).
So many people's pain is based on the parent not honoring that duty -- either by criticizing the child's emerging sexuality as wrong or dirty (an active form of denial), or by exploiting it for criminally inappropriate personal satisfaction, or even both at the same time.
I hope there is a thread of continuity in these thoughts that you can follow. If not, please ask more questions.
Appreciatively,
Mark H.
Posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 23:35:51
In reply to Re: previous message was for Mark H, posted by Mark H. on February 19, 2002, at 16:31:31
I was really interested in your experience of bipolar rage that you described (in 2000). My pdoc has referred to manic defenses more than once to me, I wonder if that is similar to what you were describing. I have never heard that term before, have you? My manic episodes are almost always euphoric, kind of a Robin Hood personality. My rages are directed inward, I would be terrified to try what your shrink suggested- and considering your experience probably never should. I am also curious about your feelings about your illness- do you think the biological aspect takes a back seat? Despite being dxed bp1, and having a family history I feel more and more that biology isn't primary in my case. As always, interested in your opinions (and extremely impressed with the amount of work you and your wife have done with your therapist)- judy
Posted by Anna Laura on February 20, 2002, at 2:27:40
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil, posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:34:51
> > My experience with abusive psychotherapists it's not about hysterical feminists or spoiled princesses, it's about real abuse:
> >
>
> Well sure, but your pdoc sounds crazy. I wasn't attacking your experience, sorry if you took it that way.
> Under number three below, in my opinion she was lying.
> By the way Frances Farmer is on my top ten lists of contemporary role models, her book WILL THERE REALLY BE A MORNING is a hoot, esp her glorious homophobia and the way she erefers to her psychotics episodes as a "smash-up".
> Take care.
> troubleHi trouble,
Sorry if i felt attacked: i must admit i'm quite touchy, it's one of my character's flaws.
Thank you for being so nice and sympathetic.
Posted by Anna Laura on February 20, 2002, at 2:42:35
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil » Anna Laura, posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 18:15:56
> Dear Anna,
> I cried when I read your post, for you and me and others 'hurt' by the system. I, too, was threatened by hospitalization several times- actually once the pdoc threatened to have a conservator appointed (he could do this w/o my presence)- I spent the entire week-end hiding in my closet expecting the police to come. I had a shrink who crossed sexual boundaries- I'm still recovering from that one. My list goes on and on- restraints and meds and almost ECT against my will. That I can trust my shrink to any degree now is kind of a miracle, so I stay and I'll try to work with him. The Hazelton sp? has a patients bill of rights and you can make out a type of will to protect your rights, maybe someone has the address? I'm sorry for what you've had to go through- judy
Hi Judy
It's really amazing how you people care!
I was moved by your post.
I wish i had such friends here in my country.
It would make my life much easier!
Unfortunately i don't much about making out a will to protect your rights. It could be done, i guess (there's something similar in my country), but i'm not sure about that since i don't know much about american law.
I bumped in to that site by pure accident: thought it was interesting and sent the url on this board, that's it.
If i find out something about it i'll let you know.A big hug!
Wishing you the best
Anna Laura
Posted by Mark H. on February 20, 2002, at 2:50:44
In reply to you said I could ask more questions :-) » Mark H., posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 23:35:51
Dear Judy,
I think that complex psychological explanations are generally useless, since they tend to change every decade or two and are supplanted by new theories of motivation and abberation based on intellectual speculation. Freud was merely the earliest really noteworthy example of this.
The arrogance of most of the literature of psychology is both horrifying and embarrassing. In the end, *concepts* themselves are meaningless and shallow, so why on earth do we strive so to take refuge in them?
If a concept such as "manic defenses" helps you to be well, then it has value. However, I've yet to meet anyone whose life was improved by knowing the name of his or her illness or so-called neurotic tendencies. I've known many people, however, whose suffering was increased by being saddled with a label that carried a negative connotation within the psychological community.
In practice, there is a certain "aha! gotcha!" quality to insider labels. If a psychologist has 45 minutes to stick you in a pidgeon-hole (so as not to experience the anxiety associated with uncertainty and the inherent mystery of being), he or she will "apply models" as quickly as possible.
Too often, these models are wielded like weapons -- as though they were "real" or had inherent meaning -- when in fact they have less basis in the history of healing than the reading of Tarot cards. Believe me, the old adage "to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" applies just as much to the practice of psychology. Depending on the modality in which one is trained, evidence of the relevance of that modality is found at every turn. Again, if it is useful, if people improve their lives with it, then fine. But how often is that the case?
The classic example is one of the saddest in our modern history. I have a dear friend whose practice was limited to "uncovering" events of childhood sexual abuse that in most cases never happened. There was a period in the early 90s when every other person I saw (male or female) who had some unnamed inner aching would ask me in all seriousness if I thought they had been "sexually abused" by one of their parents and suppressed the memory of it.
It was as though the collapse of the Soviet empire had left a gaping void in our collective unconscious that had to be filled with a "forgotten" boogey-man, whether it was abduction by aliens, ritual killing of babies by non-existent satanic cults, or long-suppressed memories of sexual victimization. One particularly notorious author claimed that childhood sexual abuse was so prevalent that denying it had happened was evidence that it had. Hmmm. Apparently logic wasn't part of the curriculum in her graduate program.
Accusations based on confabulated memories created by suggestive questioning under hypnosis led to actual lawsuits, criminal prosecutions and families being torn apart over "recovered" memories. Several states went so far as to change their statutes of limitation to allow "victims" to press charges during the period *beginning* with their "recovered" memories!
This widespread phenomenon not only created immeasurable suffering (while providing job security for participating psychologists), but also later tainted the cases of those who had actual, uninterrupted memories of corroborated childhood abuse. Very few psychologists were ever civilly sued or criminally prosecuted for these grave offenses, and some still defend this dark era of widespread hysteria as "real."
Today, the fad of universal child sexual abuse has fallen out of favor, as the sheer claim of numbers collapsed on itself. Yet we now live in a society where adults are understandably uncomfortable being alone with children for any reason, and where children have a dangerously exaggerated sense of the power and importance of their sexuality. Tomorrow's psychologists will surely profit handsomely from these children as they reach adulthood -- children untouched for fear of accidentally being touched "inappropriately."
During the height of the fad, a local doctor was prosecuted for sexual molestation. The incident? In front of numerous other adults (including the parents of the "victim") in the middle of a summer afternoon, he rode his own 4 year old daughter on one knee and her 4 year old friend on the other knee while mowing his front yard with a garden tractor.
Under questioning, the four year old friend was coerced into claiming the doctor had touched her genitals during the ride -- although every competent adult witness swore he never even took off his thick garden gloves and grabbed the kids only to keep them from falling off. The jury acquitted him in a matter of minutes, of course, and chastised the District Attorney's office for charging him in the first place, but just the fact that a local prosecutor chose to bring the case to trial is frightening and repulsive. Her conclusive statement to the media was, "Children don't lie." Huh?
In the late 40s, the Nobel Prize was given to the person who later developed the transorbital prefrontal lobotomy. At the height of his popularity, he could "do" more than a dozen patients a day by laying them out in a row and slipping a glorified icepick behind their eyeballs, popping it through the thin part of the skull and wiggling it around a bit, effectively scrambling their brains in a most uncontrolled and unscientific fashion. It only went out of favor when someone pointed out that among others he was "treating" adolescents whose only mental illness in some cases was "defying parental authority." Whoops! Sorry about that!
I fully accept the biomechanical models of single and bipolar depressive illnesses AS LONG AS they are considered within the larger context of our complete experiences as richly complex human beings. If our circumstances make us sick, and they can; if our reactions -- conscious and otherwise -- can harm us, and they do; if depression can increase our susceptibility to heart disease and cancer, and it does; then we must also consider the *possibility* that our minds are capable of miraculous healing as well.
We have created educational degrees, meaningful long-term relationships, homes, families, jobs -- why would we stop short of thinking we can choose to influence the levels of neurotransmitters in our own brains? Any model we investigate is only useful and applicable if it helps us towards greater wholeness and fulfillment as human beings. All others should be discarded. I believe beyond doubt that we do *not* have to understand our past to heal in the present. This belief is not particularly supportive of most models of psychotherapy with which I am familiar!
You certainly evoke passionate responses from me. I hope these ramblings are OK with you.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by trouble on February 20, 2002, at 4:17:13
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil... for Trouble, posted by Anna Laura on February 20, 2002, at 2:27:40
OK.
And I'm sorry for being such a show-off!
But here I go again-I don't know if you like reading this sort of thing but one harrowing true story I read was by a someone who's both a major feminist theoretician AND head case, which in my twisty value system makes her pure and noble. Kate Millet, The Looney Bin Trip, at all local libraries.
It really brought me down.
Enjoy! Write Back, trouble
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.