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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by deerock on April 28, 2009, at 11:54:14
I was talking to my T yesterday about how much I love Mike Tyson. When she asked why, I said that my feelings for him have to do with what he accomplished as a boxer, how talented he once was and how honest he is about who he is and his limitations as a person. She responded by saying strongly that Mike Tyson always blames other people. I said no, he does not, he constantly berates himself now that he is no longer in the spotlight, about his decisions and choices in the past and in the present. She said ok, he may do that too. After the appointment, I stumbled accross an interview with James Toback who made a movie about Tyson which is due out any day now. Perhaps it is out already.
Q. There will be people, I suspect, who'll look at this and say it's an apology for Mike Tyson.
A. But his self-recrimination, his prosecution of himself, is nonstop throughout the movie. His notion of himself is not one of endless self-justification. It's one of constant self-recrimination. He's saying by implication that I'm the one who screwed up here. He's not turning it on other people. It's only Don King and Desiree Washington he's hard on.
I dont know why my T disagreeing with me bothers me so much. I guess, basically, I am finding proof that her perceptions are not always right on. And if I am trusting her to make me better, or help me get better, I am concerned that she may be skewed in her views, thinking that I have issues that I do not have, leading me to default my perceptions to hers, taking her opinion over my own, and leading me to suffer more than I need to. She has no showed for 2 appointments and told me she was sick and did not hear her alarm go off. She also apologized. This is 2 out of several, so maybe no big deal. Maybe. And then she talked to my psychiatrist without my signing a HIPAA form, simply using my verbal OK to do to. When i asked her why she did that, she simply said What is your concern here, what are you afraid I may do? I did not state this but my concern is that she broke the law and did not own up to it.I will bring these concerns to her.
Do you have any thoughts on this?
Posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2009, at 12:50:26
In reply to more therapist drama, posted by deerock on April 28, 2009, at 11:54:14
> I dont know why my T disagreeing with me bothers me so much.
Maybe because you are thinking that there are two and only two options:
1) T is right and you are wrong
2) You are right and T is wrongBut wait, problems either way:
IF 1) Then how can you trust your perceptions in anything? Are they really that ununderstandable? That wrong? How can one go on in life if one is wrong about everything always?
IF 2) Then how can you trust that your therapist is competent to help you? How can one continue to work with her if she really is so misguided / incompetent?
Fortunately, there might be more options that are available...
Another option might be some synthesis... Some respect in which both you and your therapist are correct and some other respect in which both you and your therapist are incorrect. Sometimes a closer approximation to 'the truth of the situation' involves incorporating aspects of multiple perspectives into some kind of transcendent synthesis...
My thought is basically...
'Borderline dilemmas'
Marsha Linehan has some WONDERFUL things to say about this process (which she credits to Hume)
I used to hit upon similar dilemmas about, oh, every 5 minutes.
My ability to synthesize a transcendence is improving... Slowly... Gradually...
There is hope :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2009, at 12:52:27
In reply to Re: more therapist drama, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2009, at 12:50:26
Actually maybe not Hume. I forget.
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 28, 2009, at 14:00:54
In reply to Re: more therapist drama, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2009, at 12:50:26
You mean Hegel. *Dialectical* behavioral therapy is conceptually based on Hegel's dialectics--out of thesis and anti-thesis is synthesis (Hegel). Out of black and white thinking, may arise, instead, mindful thinking (Linehan).
> Marsha Linehan has some WONDERFUL things to say about this process (which she credits to Hume)
>
> I used to hit upon similar dilemmas about, oh, every 5 minutes.
>
> My ability to synthesize a transcendence is improving... Slowly... Gradually...
>
> There is hope :-)
>
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 28, 2009, at 14:04:51
In reply to more therapist drama, posted by deerock on April 28, 2009, at 11:54:14
Deerock, don't get stuck thinking in all or nothing, black or what terms--or in terms of catastrophe. There are always more therapists out there, so it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work out with her. If indeed, she has missed two appointments from oversleeping and has not had you signed a HIPAA form before talking to another provider, she has not been behaving professionally or unethically.
But you have to commit to a therapeutic relationship with SOMEBODY.
And you have to ask yourself: why can't you with your therapist on some issues? Your therapist doesn't practice mind control. She won't change you by disagreeing about some sports star. So who cares if she sees Mike Tyson differently?
Did you ever ask her about the axis II dx, and if so, what did she say?
> I was talking to my T yesterday about how much I love Mike Tyson. When she asked why, I said that my feelings for him have to do with what he accomplished as a boxer, how talented he once was and how honest he is about who he is and his limitations as a person. She responded by saying strongly that Mike Tyson always blames other people. I said no, he does not, he constantly berates himself now that he is no longer in the spotlight, about his decisions and choices in the past and in the present. She said ok, he may do that too. After the appointment, I stumbled accross an interview with James Toback who made a movie about Tyson which is due out any day now. Perhaps it is out already.
>
> Q. There will be people, I suspect, who'll look at this and say it's an apology for Mike Tyson.
>
> A. But his self-recrimination, his prosecution of himself, is nonstop throughout the movie. His notion of himself is not one of endless self-justification. It's one of constant self-recrimination. He's saying by implication that I'm the one who screwed up here. He's not turning it on other people. It's only Don King and Desiree Washington he's hard on.
>
>
> I dont know why my T disagreeing with me bothers me so much. I guess, basically, I am finding proof that her perceptions are not always right on. And if I am trusting her to make me better, or help me get better, I am concerned that she may be skewed in her views, thinking that I have issues that I do not have, leading me to default my perceptions to hers, taking her opinion over my own, and leading me to suffer more than I need to. She has no showed for 2 appointments and told me she was sick and did not hear her alarm go off. She also apologized. This is 2 out of several, so maybe no big deal. Maybe. And then she talked to my psychiatrist without my signing a HIPAA form, simply using my verbal OK to do to. When i asked her why she did that, she simply said What is your concern here, what are you afraid I may do? I did not state this but my concern is that she broke the law and did not own up to it.
>
> I will bring these concerns to her.
>
> Do you have any thoughts on this?
>
Posted by deerock on April 28, 2009, at 14:35:40
In reply to Re: more therapist drama, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2009, at 12:50:26
did marsha say this in a particular book or movie? if so, please recommend.
i see exactly what you are saying and i agree with you. thank god because if i didnt agree, id be right, youd be wrong and then where would we end up?
:)
Posted by deerock on April 28, 2009, at 14:36:42
In reply to Re: more therapist drama, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2009, at 12:52:27
you forgot? oh no. if your memory is that bad, maybe i can never read any of your posts again ever, because you might be trying to respond to someone who you really hate and forgot and respond to me by accident.
ok. im making fun of myself. you get the idea.
Posted by deerock on April 28, 2009, at 14:40:06
In reply to Re: more therapist drama, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 28, 2009, at 14:04:51
im seeing her tonight. ill ask about the axis II stuff.
<<If indeed, she has missed two appointments from oversleeping and has not had you signed a HIPAA form before talking to another provider, she has not been behaving professionally or unethically.>>
are you saying she did or did not behave in an unprofessional and unethical way?
<<<And you have to ask yourself: why can't you with your therapist on some issues? >>>
Because she MAY be a retard and I MAY be MUCH better off with someone who is smarter and more talented than she is. MAYBE.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2009, at 15:07:39
In reply to Re: more therapist drama » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by deerock on April 28, 2009, at 14:40:06
Ah yes, someone beginning with 'H'.
Hegel. Thanks for that :-)Thanks for taking my post in the spirit in which it was intended, too.
Oh yes, dialectics can be fun... An ongoing life process that one gets better at over time... Where the ability to see both helps one feel better and is an 'aha' moment of rational insight.
The ability to laugh is a wonderful thing :-)
So... Parts are a little hard going... But I literally cried myself through this one a couple of times. The insight she showed with respect to stuff going on in my life... Even though people said I was never 'classic' and I only had 'traits' and I only ever got dx'd because that was the requirement for the treatment program. Sigh.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898621836/thebehavioraltec/103-4893218-2730266
(I forget how to do the linked quotes thing)
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 28, 2009, at 21:53:54
In reply to Re: more therapist drama » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by deerock on April 28, 2009, at 14:40:06
I don't know what question you think I asked you, but the one you quoted isn't it.
"Retard?" Those are words you use when you've been let down with someone? I don't care what the therapist did or did not do to you, you don't demean people with cognitive difficulties.
It is also totally uncool to be sarcastic when someone is trying to help you.
I don't care what you do.
> <<<And you have to ask yourself: why can't you with your therapist on some issues? >>>
> Because she MAY be a retard and I MAY be MUCH better off with someone who is smarter and more talented than she is. MAYBE.
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 28, 2009, at 21:57:11
In reply to Re: more therapist drama, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2009, at 15:07:39
:) :)
I know what you mean, Alexandra. I have "traits" too, rather than a classic dx. But it's hard working through the modules. I've known about DBT in an intellectual way, but am only now working through the modules, actively engaging in the process It's hard, hard work.
We do have to laugh occasionally (or more, if possible)!!! Congrats to you for completing the DBT!! Quite an accomplishment!
> Ah yes, someone beginning with 'H'.
> Hegel. Thanks for that :-)
>
> Thanks for taking my post in the spirit in which it was intended, too.
>
> Oh yes, dialectics can be fun... An ongoing life process that one gets better at over time... Where the ability to see both helps one feel better and is an 'aha' moment of rational insight.
>
> The ability to laugh is a wonderful thing :-)
>
> So... Parts are a little hard going... But I literally cried myself through this one a couple of times. The insight she showed with respect to stuff going on in my life... Even though people said I was never 'classic' and I only had 'traits' and I only ever got dx'd because that was the requirement for the treatment program. Sigh.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898621836/thebehavioraltec/103-4893218-2730266
>
> (I forget how to do the linked quotes thing)
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 28, 2009, at 21:58:06
In reply to Re: more therapist drama, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 28, 2009, at 21:57:11
Posted by raisinb on April 28, 2009, at 22:41:29
In reply to more therapist drama, posted by deerock on April 28, 2009, at 11:54:14
There are a couple things that would bother me, too. First, that she didn't explore Mike Tyson's persistence and relentless self-examination, which I think what was you were trying to get at.
Second, if you are in the U.S., yes, my understanding is that she did break the law, I've had similar situations with my therapist and pdoc and though they both groused about it, I declined to solve a release and they did not communicate until I decided signing it was in my best interests.
It is your legal right to decline that communication. Speak to her about that, definitely.
Posted by raisinb on April 28, 2009, at 22:57:07
In reply to Re: more therapist drama, posted by alexandra_k on April 28, 2009, at 15:07:39
Gotta second the recommendation for Marsha Linehan's Cognitive Behavioral Treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder.
It's a wonderful book--one that I keep returning to when I'm facing a tough choice or an emotional black hole. I love her focus on dialectics, because it suggests that growth stems from initial conflict.
I also love her tone. She's no-nonsense, has a respect for paradox, and a fundamental respect and understanding of borderline patients. Even if it's debatable whether one is "borderline"--me or you--it's so articulate about the issues that people with borderline issues typically face. When I read it, I get the sense that I'm talking to a self-assured, yet respectful and empathic person who understands the deep conflicts I encounter.
Posted by deerock on April 29, 2009, at 9:19:19
In reply to whatever, dude » deerock, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 28, 2009, at 21:53:54
sorry i offended you. not my intention. have a nice day.
rock
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