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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 10:35:46
Just thought I'd start a new thread instead of adding to the old one.
I'm still trying to get my head around what has happened in therapy over the last two days, with two very different therapists.
Part of it is that I can't remember everything that happened because I disassociated so much. It's very annoying, but obviously my mind is protecting me, which I can accept for now.
My pdoc was first. Surprisingly, he was waiting for me when I arrived. Usually he's late and it takes us a while to get going, but he was obviously ready to go. I was impressed that he had made the effort.
He brought up my letter right off the bat, which was nice because I thought he would wait for me to bring it up. He had it in his hand, which made me cringe.
To say that he was thrilled that I had written to him is probably an understatement. He told me how great it was that I could articulate myself so well and how clearly I understood the process and could see what was going on (transference).
Those of you who have followed my rantings over my pdoc's extreme CBT orientation will get a kick out of the next part.
He tried (I stopped him because he didn't need to waste the time) to explain to me how important/wonderful it was that I was experiencing this new-found transference with him and how it was vital to my therapy, that I had to go through this w/him in order to "work through" my issues with my father to arrive at a better outcome and hopefully heal.
I was floored. Isn't this the guy who says we have no relationship and doesn't believe in transference? Either I've been reading him wrong all along, or as my T likes to say, I've taught him a lot.:) I think the misunderstanding arises out of his belief that the transference isn't actually about him; he's really just a vessel, or a means to an end. I know that this transference isn't necessarily about him, the man, but about what it stands for. So I think I understand him better, but I certainly was taken aback.
He actually read the part where I fessed up to my transference and that was really difficult for me to hear. I couldn't bear to hear that I admitted to having strong feelings for him, partly because I didn't want to be rejected for having those feelings. But I wasn't rejected, which felt good.
I couldn't stay with him. I had to keep asking, "What are we talking about?" because my thoughts kept flying out of my head, probably because this was all so difficult. We talked about my feelings about my father a lot, and the shame I still feel, and the shame I feel having transferred these feelings onto him. He assured me that these feelings were OK and he could handle them (I asked him several times to be sure). I do know that it is safer at this point in therapy to place the feelings onto him rather than deal with the horribleness I feel about the real feelings about my father.
A lot more went on, but I can't remember it. Except I do remember talking about why I'd been feeling so badly since I'd last seen him--intrusive thoughts (to put it mildly) and a flashback that has returned. It's only a fragment, but it has been very distressing. Has happened twice so far in the past week).
But I remember the end. I did muster up the courage to ask why he hadn't called me, knowing how I was feeling, and as was pointed out by several posters, he thought since I had written, I had displayed that I was strong enough to handle this on my own. And, as I thought, he didn't think it was in my best interests to call. I knew that--that's his style and I mentioned how important he thought it was that I don't become too dependent on him. We argued over how strong I actually was, that I think he thinks I'm stronger than I am.
Then we degenerated into our usual argument about his "style" of therapy and the unequalness of it, that he has all the power. He asked me a lot of questions to show that he has been there when I've asked (but still doesn't get how hard it is for me to actually ask).
I knew he would ask what I wanted to hear from him if he had called. I'd thought about this a lot, and I said, "reassurance." Reassurance that he wouldn't abandon me after I admitted having these feelings, and reassurance that these feelings were normal. He gave me that reassurance, repeatedly.
There's more, but I can't remember. Except for the ending when we were "disagreeing" about the level of caring he displays toward me and the level I think I need, and whether his style was really right for me, that I often think of it as abuse, clear and simple, when I feel like I'm being ignored, etc.
Then he pointed out something that I wasn't aware of. He asked if I realized that I usually left in anger, that it was easier for me to separate if I left that way, that I couldn't accept leaving w/thoughts of a caring pdoc. He was right, and I hadn't noticed that pattern before.
I have to say that I'm left more with feelings about the session than what was actually said. I do feel cared for, and while that's really hard for me to admit, I'm going to have to accept it. I do know, however, that unlike some other types of therapists, he draws boundaries that may be too strict for me. I may need more that he can't/won't give me and that may be an insurmountable obstacle for my therapy w/him.
Yesterday, my T was back to her usual self and wanted me to be sure that I understood that she would have called me if she had received the letter. (She did find it before I came, and had some good comments on it, but she's scatter brained at times, but that's part of what makes her her, if that makes any sense.)
We spent the session talking about my session w/my pdoc, so there wasn't much time to talk about anything else, but she does want to delve into why I picked this particular pdoc.
Oh, and she wanted to focus on the flashbacks. For me to try and concentrate on how different parts of my body feel when it's happening so we may get a better understanding of the fragment. Interesting to me was that she said that something about my letter and admitting my transference was triggering the flashback and she wants to explore that.
Why isn't there ever enough time?
All in all, they were two very good sessions--a landmark with my pdoc and the usual, supportive one with my T.
I'm not going to nitpick what my pdoc said to death right now. There's a lot to work on, but I'm going to accept what he had to say at face value and continue the discussion of whether his approach is the right one for me. But I'm in this pretty deep and that scares the h*ll out of me.
But I am so happy to be rid of the obssessive ruminating over this that had consumed me for two weeks. I feel like I can go back to my life for the time being.
I can't thank everyone enough for all their support in listening and responding to me as I've tried to work through this particular stage of therapy. It is incredibly painful.
antigua
Posted by backseatdriver on February 12, 2009, at 10:59:47
In reply to Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 10:35:46
Yay! What a great week. Good for you!!!
Posted by lucie lu on February 12, 2009, at 11:27:17
In reply to Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 10:35:46
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2009, at 11:30:29
In reply to Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 10:35:46
He does respond well sometimes, doesn't he? And I think he really does care, in his own way.
I think you have definitely taught him a lot and stretched his professional abilities. I always think of that as a good thing. :)
Posted by sharon7 on February 12, 2009, at 15:32:10
In reply to Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 10:35:46
That is SO great, antigua. That was a great post. I'm so happy you had a good experience both with the pdoc and your T. That is so encouraging. Sorry you blanked out so much, but it sounds like you handled what you were able to hear. That was a lot of input and it sounds like the things the pdoc had to say was a surprise, and OH how hard it is to talk to them about the transference thing!
LOL! Sorry, I had to laugh when you said the part about how you can't hardly tolerate seeing your letter in the pdoc/T's hands, or just laying out (like mine done.) When my T would try to read me something I'd written, which hasn't been for a while now beacuse I haven't written to her in so long, I would really freak out. I would be just like "NO! NO! NO! YOU SAID YOU WOULDN'T.. PLEASE DON'T READ THAT." Over and over until she stops. It's like torture!! I could really relate to that!
Thanks again for sharing. It sounds to me like you are making progress and gained some valuable insight. Congrats!!! (o:
Sharon
Posted by rskontos on February 12, 2009, at 16:05:58
In reply to Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 10:35:46
Antigua,
Just one thing to think about as one fellow dissociative to another, when you get that dissociative in a session (and I have so I get this) {as well as my p-doc and I have discussed why}, usually it means you are VERY close to a truth that has remained hidden for a long time and your brain is trying to keep a secret a secret. Since your p-doc triggered it, and your t agrees, and is helping too with the p-doc, I think in my humble, jumbled way, that it is worth all the messiness to continue with him to the end. His style and her style offset either and may be better than you think. And, besides, who knows how much more you can "teach" him.
Just my thoughts,
take care
rsk
Posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 19:54:16
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!) » antigua3, posted by rskontos on February 12, 2009, at 16:05:58
Well, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who disassociates like this, although I don't wish it on anyone and I know plenty of us do go through this.
You put it much more elogquently than I could. That is what my T said, that the disassociation, along w/the flashbacks, meant that I was really close to something and I'm sure (I know, really) that it was too terrifying to confront at this time.
The problem may be that now that my beast has been "soothed," by the caring I received, it may all go back into hiding, which makes me think it would require another confrontation w/my pdoc bring it back out. I hope I'm wrong, and that just actually having the therapy w/him and going to the deep places may make it become more available to me.
It's weird. I feel too calm. But I'm going to enjoy it. The body is healing, as is the mind.Thanks for your thoughtful response. As usual, you made me think.
antigua
Posted by DAisym on February 12, 2009, at 23:44:24
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!) » rskontos, posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 19:54:16
What I usually find is that when there is a rupture and then I feel calm and soothed, whatever was driving the rupture - underneith it - will surface. But I like that you are respecting how much you can push yourself - flash backs can be so scary.
I'm impressed with your pdoc today. But I so want to hold up a big mirror and say, "this is a therapist who believes in relationship." :) I still think he is afraid of his own caring. Makes me wonder what his own therapy was like.
I still wish he'd called you. But it should validate how well you know him now.
I'm glad there is an explanation for why your T didn't call. It made me smile to read, "it makes her, her." short, sweet - the love shows.
Rest, relax and enjoy valentine's day. Your heart deserves it.
Posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 6:38:21
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by backseatdriver on February 12, 2009, at 10:59:47
Posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:05:24
In reply to A jaw dropper but a great one! (more later) (nm) » antigua3, posted by lucie lu on February 12, 2009, at 11:27:17
Selfishly, I hope you do write later, if you can or want to.
I don't feel as well as I did yesterday. Fear and terror started creeping up on me last night, and I woke up too early, but couldn't wait to get out of bed this morning. Driven, in fact, to get away from that bed.
But I'm on strict instructions from my T to call her if absolutely anything comes up. So that's good.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:08:16
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!) » antigua3, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2009, at 11:30:29
Yes, I do have to laugh because my T really does believe I've taught him a lot.
He does care, in his limited way, and while I wish it could be different at times, it never will be and that's something I have to work on. It doesn't work well to confront him on this because he always has logical answers. Very authoritarian.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:10:46
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!) » antigua3, posted by sharon7 on February 12, 2009, at 15:32:10
I usually don't like having my words read back to me either. In this case, I almost volunteered to read the letter to him myself, just so I wouldn't have to go through that and he could "see" better what I meant. He isn't a native American speaker and I think sometimes he doesn't understand completely when I write very complex things or use idioms.
Thanks for your support, and keep up your good work.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:14:37
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!) » antigua3, posted by rskontos on February 12, 2009, at 16:05:58
That scares me a lot, that something is very close. In one way, I don't want too much comforting from my T either because that tends to drive things inwardly as well.
I know it's there, but whether or not I will access it this time is another thing. Best not to push because it never works for me. It probably would be best for me to back off completely and not think about it at all, but my mind isn't letting me.
I had hoped that the ying/yang of my T/pdoc dynamic would have the effect that you mention. But I don't know anymore. But that could also be denial. He's a nicer guy than the role I've ascribed to him and maybe that will send this in a direction that won't work. I will work on this w/my T.
Thanks for your thoughts,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:18:10
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:14:37
Posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:22:25
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!) » antigua3, posted by DAisym on February 12, 2009, at 23:44:24
I hope you're right. My pattern is usually to retreat BIG time after opening up. Maintaining consistency in going deeper is almost impossible for me, and I recognize that's my pattern. I get the care/love I need, I think that's enough and I go back into hiding.
Yes, it would have been nice if my pdoc had called. But he only will if I ask explicitely and he's not the type of guy that I can just call and say, "I'm feeling badly," without some sort of context or incident.
I'm going to ask him what he thinks about countertransference when I see him next time, if I can muster up the courage. I know I push his buttons sometimes (that whole "favorite child" issue, for one) and I'd like to discuss it. I'm sure he will say that it doesn't exist. :)
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:24:03
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:22:25
Posted by rskontos on February 13, 2009, at 16:21:46
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:14:37
> That scares me a lot, that something is very close. In one way, I don't want too much comforting from my T either because that tends to drive things inwardly as well.
***Antigua, I know. There is much I don't remember about the past too. I told my t/pdoc combo, that I am scared sometimes to remember it all. He reminded me I survived it once I will survive the remembering. He says I can also get well without remembering. So I am not obsessing about it now. And things I had to shut down because too much came too fast. Things are just now coming back in flashbacks and dreams. I understand the too much comfort. It seems your t might understand this already, I get the feeling.
>
> I know it's there, but whether or not I will access it this time is another thing. Best not to push because it never works for me. It probably would be best for me to back off completely and not think about it at all, but my mind isn't letting me.No I think if we to remember we will no matter. And it is ok. we CAN handle it. We did once we can again. You are stronger now, with so much more support and fortitude. You have resources now you did not back then.
>
> I had hoped that the ying/yang of my T/pdoc dynamic would have the effect that you mention. But I don't know anymore. But that could also be denial. He's a nicer guy than the role I've ascribed to him and maybe that will send this in a direction that won't work. I will work on this w/my T.It will have the effect when it is time. When you are ready and able to accept it. He will have a role too. P-docs, if he is anything like mine, seem to know when to push and when not too. Mine sure does. And when to bring out stuff that will encourage a deeper direction. So remember he will play an active role too. If you let him, or at least don't hinder.
Be open I guess. to let the ying/yang dynamic work. that is all.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts,you are always most welcome as I welcome yours.
take care,
rsk
Posted by raisinb on February 13, 2009, at 20:32:58
In reply to Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!), posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 10:35:46
Wow, antigua. Just, wow. After reading about your pdoc all this time, I can't imagine him even saying those things! This is a landmark stage in your relationship, and in your therapy and your ability to trust in general. I so admire your ability to stick with him and work these things through. Congratulations!
As for your therapist, I'm glad she's back to her regular self. It's tough when they change--it feels like abandonment, even though they are still physically there. And sometimes they don't get that.
Posted by antigua3 on February 14, 2009, at 12:38:08
In reply to Re: Update on pdoc and T (long/Sorry!) » antigua3, posted by raisinb on February 13, 2009, at 20:32:58
Posted by lucie lu on February 14, 2009, at 13:00:54
In reply to Re: A jaw dropper but a great one! (more later) » lucie lu, posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 7:05:24
Sorry, I didn't mean to be mysterious, I just was floored by your story and didn't have time to respond. There is so much there!
Your pdoc story just blew me away. That man is something else! You know, when you (or anyone here) describe your Ts or other important people in your life, over time it creates a particular image. Well, what happened at your pdoc session just completely shattered that image for me. I then find myself wondering, was there some technique-based "script" he's been working from that you didn't know about but suddenly fell into through your letter?
In a later post of yours, you commented that he is a non-native English speaker. That really caught my eye. You and he so often seem to be miscommunicating. Is it possible some of this could be culturally or language based? Where was he trained, i.e. where did he learn to practice the brand of therapy he practices? All of this just seems to open up a lot of new possibilities with your pdoc, antigua. I get the sense that, whatever the reason, a very important part of your therapy with him is going to consist of mutual efforts toward communication. That seemed to have been an important component of that session. And I have to say that, as confusing as all that was, it did seem to reinforce in my mind the fact that he obviously cares a lot for you. I like his observation that you tend to end a session in anger, perhaps to help you keep the distance you need to feel safe from him. That was perceptive.
Words can really get you hung up. I remember one time getting into a non-productive and fairly uncharacteristic fight with my T over my use of the word "couple" to describe us in the therapy context. In retrospect, I think words such as dyad, partners, etc would have been more accurate but I just didn't think of them at the time. It seems to have been very triggering for him, because he was very insistent that we were not "a couple." It was like he had an allergic reaction to that word. We just couldn't seem to get beyond that in that session, and it was very frustrating for both of us. He absolutely felt this was something that was critically important to get across to me. But I was trying equally hard to talk about our relationship from another direction altogether, and nothing was gained from that particular session. In fact his insistence hurt my feelings since his response was just so "out there" and in my face when I was trying to address something else. But sometimes it is just like that, in therapy and IRL. We all have our different frames of internal reference, and so often they are more dissimilar than similar. And so often we are unaware that we are on different pages, and need to be brought back together into the same place by explicit and continuing efforts to communicate and work things out mutually.
I am glad your T explained things for you as she has. I just love her. And your pdoc is very interesting; have to give him that.
Keep us posted!
Lucie
Posted by antigua3 on February 14, 2009, at 18:43:28
In reply to Re: A jaw dropper but a great one! (more later) » antigua3, posted by lucie lu on February 14, 2009, at 13:00:54
What you said about my pdoc brought up a few issues for me.
1. I, too, have often wondered if he is working from a technique-based script. In fact, I'd give it good odds that he does work this way. There seem to be a lot of steps here, and sometimes I don't get them "right", but when we click, the connection is very strong. I need to make a better effort to discuss this w/him.>
2. "In a later post of yours, you commented that he is a non-native English speaker."I wondered if anyone would notice. It's not that I intentionally haven't brought it up, it just hasn't seemed as important as I now think it might be. I'd rather not say where he got his initial training, but he has some excellent U.S. credentials as well. But his native culture is more authoritarian than ours, including in terms of the role of women in society. Not hugely different, but I think enough of a difference that it shows at times. My T agrees.
99.9% of the time there is no language barrier, but on rare occasions we can misconstrue the intentions of the words each other uses. So far, I don't think it has been much of a problem at all.
3. "And I have to say that, as confusing as all that was, it did seem to reinforce in my mind the fact that he obviously cares a lot for you."
That made me smile. I don't tend to think that he cares about me, but I'm glad his caring showed through enough that someone else could see it.
Thanks,
antigua
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