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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by llrrrpp on June 16, 2006, at 22:21:53
So, I am in the midst of badness right now. I had about 2 weeks when I felt like my depression was lifting, but this week it's been 5 bad days out of 7. I'm getting to the point where I don't feel like I've got much power to fight it.
This morning I lost it. I got to work. I'm sitting at my desk, feeling positive self-hatred, self-loathing. Shame that I am so slothful, that I haven't gotten any work done in so long. Apathy- the only thing I want to do is go home and stare into space, sit in the dark and wallow.
And so. I am overcome with myself and I send my boss an e-mail. T has been asking me for some time to tell her how i feel when she treats me like garbage. Actually, she's not really my "boss" but rather my advisor, my mentor for my dissertation. She's been my boss in the past, but right now I'm not doing any research for her. Anyways. The mentoring has been sorely lacking lately. She's been incredibly overwhelmed, stretching herself too thin, and occasionally snapping. recently, classes ended, so her teaching duties are over for the year. Her big grant was submitted 10 days ago, and so she's trying to get involved with her mentees again. she's a nice woman. Scatterbrained, maternal, kind. So kind that you feel guilty to say bad things about her, even when she frustrates you.
Anyways, two days ago, she asks me and S. (another student) to meet the following afternoon at 2pm. S. and I prepare our work. By this point in the afternoon, I'm not feeling well at all, insomnia the night before, deep depression, melancholy. we wait, and wait. Finally, at 3 she waltzes in, goes into her office. At 3:10 I ask her if she's ready to meet with us (the meeting was her idea after all). I was SO furious with her nonchalance. It turns out she was late because she was buying FLOWERS for her garden. That's fine. no problem, but just tell us, call, or schedule the meeting for another time. what a shi**y excuse.
The following morning (this morning). I was still feeling depressed. I sent her an email that I was not doing very well, apologizing for slow progress on my projects, giving her details about my struggles to attain functioning. (she knows I'm depressed). She emails back one of those "I'm sorry, let me know if there's anything i can do...- type emails" Well. I took her seriously. I e-mailed her back that she could help me by being on time to meetings. That when she's late (usually about 30 minutes late, on average, in the last 18 months) that it hurts my feelings. That I'm too sensitive and that I take it personally sometimes. Also that it's hard to get motivated to prepare for meetings, and take them seriously when the your advisor is consistently late.
Then I leave the office for an hour
I come back, and do some work on my project with S., who is being awfully nice to me. Turns out that our advisor had been in to see her. llrrrpp is having a really hard time right now. I'm worried about her. She's not doing so well (which is all true). S. said I'm really stressed out, and that I haven't been sleeping. Then she asks S. about her mental status (which is psycho, but S. fortunately unaware, and still maintaining some level of funtioning- ignorance is bliss?). I guess my advisor is trying to be a mommy to us.
Anyways, I heard about my advisor's positive interference, and she emailed back later about how she needs to try harder, and apologized and said that she cares, etc etc. I was crying for, like, the next 3 hours. I couldn't stop the tears. (drank 2 liters of water today- did I dehydrate myself?) Kind people caring about me. I didn't feel worthy. I felt like an invalid. I felt bad for calling my advisor out on her negligence. BUT, I also felt tears of relief that she does care after all, that I did get those pent-up feelings off my chest, and that she responded sensitively. Guilt and relief. Shame and gratitude.
I wish she weren't such a nice woman. She's so maternal, that when she inevitably ignores you, says something brusk, or heaven forbid--keeps you waiting all afternoon for a stupid 30 minute meeting-- that the pain is that much greater. If she were a nasty mean person, I don't think it would hurt so much, but we expect more from her than she can/will give. And then I feel rejected (a couple other mentees express similar frustrations, but they've channeled into anger, rather than learned helplessness)
Anyways. thought I would get that off my chest. I still feel really down. Incredibly lonely. Isolating myself more than usual lately. Incredible apathy. Pain. experiencing some mildly unpleasant side effects from a recent medicine change.
I guess it's a good time to give me a hug. I'm almost at the stage where I'm going to isolate myself from babble. get myself blocked, just to simplify my life. but... Then I'd miss hearing about Deneb's hamster though (half-grin's the best I can muster)
(all cried out for the day)
-ll
Posted by llrrrpp on June 16, 2006, at 22:30:50
In reply to Had a crisis at work, little long., posted by llrrrpp on June 16, 2006, at 22:21:53
I also wanted to mention that I have sent other emails expressing various psychological sorrows to various people this week. Not all of them have been responded to. I fear some of them may have been offensive. I shouldn't write e-mails when I'm in this state. I feel better to purge it- get the feelings off my chest. But then the feeling is replaced by anxiety and guilt. Who have I offended this time? Who thinks I'm psycho now? I have a really hard time with face-to-face communication about feelings. Most people who see me think I have no problems whatsoever (as long as I wear long sleeves) This is because I'm SOOOO good at putting on a happy face, and engaging in mindless small-talk. So, the inner pain and frustration build up, because I'm terrified that if I say something unpleasant, I will lose a buddy, or shock an acquaintance.
If I've offended you, or made you feel bad with one of my recent emails, it was because *I* was hurting. I'm too sensitive. I don't have good control of things right now. I wish I could take it back. I sincerely do.
yours,
-l
Posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 22:56:30
In reply to Had a crisis at work, little long., posted by llrrrpp on June 16, 2006, at 22:21:53
llrrrpp: You sound so sad right now. I think it was really assertive of you to let your boss know what you think about her lateness, and how it makes you feel. Especially since it's something your T has been encouraging you to do. I think you deserve credit for that. Often when I do stuff in the grips of a bout of depression I write it off to desperation or stupidity -- but to someone else is seems like nothing but bravery.
You say that you felt guilty saying something because your advisor is so nice. And also that you can still care for her even though she has these short-comings. Well it sounds like, from her touching concern for you, that despite what you think of yourself at the moment, she obviously finds you a good person, and worth the worry. I don't even know you, but from your posts to me I think you're very friendly and considerate. Though I haven't been posting for very long I have been reading, and your presense on this board would be missed if it wasn't here.
Don't isolate. It's not from those you're closest to here, but I'm going to give you my first cyberhug ever. (((((llrrrpp))))), take care.
El
Posted by Jost on June 16, 2006, at 23:29:44
In reply to Re: Had a crisis at work, little long. » llrrrpp, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 22:56:30
Llrrrpp, that sounds hard.
But you know what? You did a hard thing-- and your advisor sounds like she was at least a little bit of a mensch about it.
So let up--don't punish yourself for taking care of yourself, esp. when it worked. Forget the (imagined) times it (might) not have worked-- and while you're at it-- remember:
Good job!
Jost
Posted by fallsfall on June 17, 2006, at 9:29:09
In reply to Had a crisis at work, little long., posted by llrrrpp on June 16, 2006, at 22:21:53
You did a great job with your advisor!!
>I e-mailed her back that she could help me by being on time to meetings. That when she's late (usually about 30 minutes late, on average, in the last 18 months) that it hurts my feelings. That I'm too sensitive and that I take it personally sometimes. Also that it's hard to get motivated to prepare for meetings, and take them seriously when the your advisor is consistently late.
You identified an issue, presented it clearly and non-blamingly. Told her about the effect her lateness has on you.
And she heard your message. Knew that there was truth to what you were saying. And responded with compassion.
This is all great. I think you handled this really, really well!
Isolating is not what you need. When people are caring, it makes you cry. But you need more caring, not less. It may make you cry now, but it is healing. It will lead to better times.
It is hard to stay engaged when you feel the way you do currently. But try to gently push yourself to stay engaged. Perhaps find activities that have a short duration (get an ice cream cone with a friend - "I just have time for a quick treat, will you join me?"). I often find that the thought of being with someone for more than 30 minutes is too much, but I can handle a short interaction.
Go to places where there are people, like a mall. You don't have to interact with the people, but just being in the same place as others can help.
Make a list of short break things that are USUALLY pleasurable for you. You may not find them pleasurable now, but if under "normal" circumstances they are pleasurable, then they count. Mine include ice cream (are you understanding why my nickname is The Ice Cream Queen?), swinging on swings at the playground, sitting on the floor with my dogs, coloring designs with crayons. You will find your own list. When you are in one of the 3 hour crying periods, do one of these things. You aren't being productive anyway, so it is OK to take a break. Sometimes, just giving yourself permission to be good to yourself is helpful.
And don't isolate from Babble. We like you!
Posted by llrrrpp on June 17, 2006, at 11:09:00
In reply to Re: Had a crisis at work, little long. » llrrrpp, posted by fallsfall on June 17, 2006, at 9:29:09
> You did a great job with your advisor!!
>
> You identified an issue, presented it clearly and non-blamingly. Told her about the effect her lateness has on you.
>
> And she heard your message. Knew that there was truth to what you were saying. And responded with compassion.
>
> This is all great. I think you handled this really, really well!Thanks Falls,
I am pretty satisfied too, in retrospect. I didn't get into a shouting match. She didn't get to see me sobbing. She responded well. I'm going on a business trip with her at the end of July, and we will share a room for a couple of nights. As of Friday afternoon, she was still asking me to work out a couple of details. So, this is another good sign that she's not completely freaked out by me. She's okay.
> Isolating is not what you need. When people are caring, it makes you cry. But you need more caring, not less. It may make you cry now, but it is healing. It will lead to better times.
>
> It is hard to stay engaged when you feel the way you do currently. But try to gently push yourself to stay engaged. Perhaps find activities that have a short duration (get an ice cream cone with a friend - "I just have time for a quick treat, will you join me?"). I often find that the thought of being with someone for more than 30 minutes is too much, but I can handle a short interaction.
>
> Go to places where there are people, like a mall. You don't have to interact with the people, but just being in the same place as others can help.
>
> Make a list of short break things that are USUALLY pleasurable for you. You may not find them pleasurable now, but if under "normal" circumstances they are pleasurable, then they count. Mine include ice cream (are you understanding why my nickname is The Ice Cream Queen?), swinging on swings at the playground, sitting on the floor with my dogs, coloring designs with crayons. You will find your own list. When you are in one of the 3 hour crying periods, do one of these things. You aren't being productive anyway, so it is OK to take a break. Sometimes, just giving yourself permission to be good to yourself is helpful.
>
> And don't isolate from Babble. We like you!Maybe later when I have more pep.
I'm going to go lie down some more.
my tooth is starting to hurt (see post on social)
I like babble too, mostly. I'm not in the mood to get myself blocked. that would require some kind of emotional outburst, even if feigned, still requires more energy than I can commit-l
Posted by llrrrpp on June 17, 2006, at 11:10:33
In reply to Re: Had a crisis at work, little long. Â » fallsfall, posted by llrrrpp on June 17, 2006, at 11:09:00
thanks for your kindness & elaine for your hug :)
it means a lot to me
i'm sorry i can't respond in more depth
cant think cant type
no energyyours,
ll
Posted by madeline on June 17, 2006, at 11:13:39
In reply to Had a crisis at work, little long., posted by llrrrpp on June 16, 2006, at 22:21:53
As a graduate student, I was always at the bottom of the totem pole too. My advisor would just nag and nag and nag to meet, then forget the meeting altogether. Sigh. Two of my dissertation committee members didn't even read my dissertation (but they signed off on it anyway).
I would caution against too much self-revelation with your advisor however, you will need her to get a good post-doctoral position. Everyone always says "Oh they won't hold it against me", but you never know. Trust me. I've been exactly where you are.
I think it's fine to say, I wish that you would respect me enough to be on time for meetings, but you don't need to tell her your life story no matter how maternal she is. This is a professional relationship.
Maddie.
Posted by fallsfall on June 17, 2006, at 12:08:43
In reply to Re: Had a crisis at work, little long. Â » fallsfall, posted by llrrrpp on June 17, 2006, at 11:09:00
I'm glad you don't have the energy to get blocked.
Take it easy today. Stay safe. Eat ice cream.
(((((llrrrpp)))))
Posted by happyflower on June 17, 2006, at 16:45:08
In reply to Re: Had a crisis at work, little long. Â » llrrrpp, posted by fallsfall on June 17, 2006, at 12:08:43
((((((((IIrrrpp))))))
You did good by sticking up for yourself. It is hard to confront somebody that we like . You were brave. What are you majoring in? (just curious)
Posted by llrrrpp on June 17, 2006, at 16:52:03
In reply to Re: Had a crisis at work, little long. Â, posted by happyflower on June 17, 2006, at 16:45:08
psychology (cognitive neuroscience & child development)
nothing that gives me much insight regarding mental illness, unfortunately
Posted by happyflower on June 17, 2006, at 16:57:26
In reply to Re: Had a crisis at work, little long. Â » happyflower, posted by llrrrpp on June 17, 2006, at 16:52:03
Hey! I am thinking about going into Psch. too, and what i am most interested in is child development. But I am sure you got plenty of info in general Psych, didn't you?
But they medical stuff I am not too good at, there is so much to learn, you must be one smart cookie! ;-) I was a music major about 18 years ago, so going back to school is daughting. I am thinking of taking this fall, gereral computing, and lifespan development. (one required class, and one fun one) LOL
Posted by llrrrpp on June 17, 2006, at 16:57:58
In reply to Re: Had a crisis at work - I'm with you, posted by madeline on June 17, 2006, at 11:13:39
you're right Maddie. It's important to be discreet, because there are a lot of politics involved in academia (as in most professions). I haven't told many people, and she's the only faculty that I've told. She and I are coauthoring a paper right now. It's gotten to the point where she either thinks I'm
1) stupid
2) don't care
3) crazywell, I prefer that she think 3. Because I do care about this project, and I think I've contributed a lot of ideas to the project (ruling out 1.) And at least option 3 seems somewhat temporary. She's been a wonderful advocate for me this spring -- probably a main reason why I got a dissertation fellowship for next year, and I know that she likes my work a lot.
Nevertheless, she's not the kind of person who's office I would got to regularaly and tell her my sob stories. I prefer to keep work and personal separate where possible.
Good advice- I have to remember to be discreet even when my guard is down.
-ll
Posted by Jost on June 17, 2006, at 23:13:19
In reply to Re: Had a crisis at work - I'm with you » madeline, posted by llrrrpp on June 17, 2006, at 16:57:58
Glad you're being discreet with your thesis advisor, Llrrrpp.
Ultimately, when push comes to shove, she'll think, at least a little, about how good she'll look good if and when she recommends you for a job. Whether she'll be risking precious job-market capital, or making a good investment (sorry about the metaphor).
I don't mean that your advisor won't back you-- only that you should remember that she's got self-interested concerns that may at some point surface-- Part of your task now is to give her the confidence that you'll act in accord with her good opinion. Which I'm sure she has, and you've done, or she wouldn't be co-authoring a paper with you.
Just for the future. Esp. as you get closer to the point where you're about to finish.
It's not everything, but one of those things to keep in a corner of your mind.
Jost
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