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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 13:12:42
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » pinkeye, posted by Larry Hoover on May 2, 2005, at 8:52:04
Do you think it's any different for women, about men? I don't wear T-shirts, IMO they're ugly as sin, they're a crime. So're sweatpants. You can tattoo that on my butt.
Posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 14:21:31
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 13:12:42
Well, my dear, if I didn't love ya' to death and feel I *get* you here...I could be quite hurt right now. I could say, "why thank you, I'll have to remember I look ugly as sin." But I always give the benefit of the doubt you meant that *for you* not for everyone.
Alas, I am so totally a T-shirt and jeans (and sweatpants, too - which I <gasp> even wear out in public sometimes)gal. Always have been.
Although I wear other types of clothes, too. I clean up pretty nice when I really try, but mostly only on Sunday mornings these days.
You may be right, anyway :-( A lot of it, for me, is trying to hide a large weight gain. And my nice clothes are now too tight and I can't afford to replace them :-(
Susan - I know you didn't mean anything rude. It's not your way. But that hit too close to home anyway.
PS - Will you please sell tickets if Lar decides to tattoo anything on your butt? I wish to observe that, please ;-)
Posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 15:31:16
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 14:21:31
You're right. But you know, what you said about "clean up pretty nice"? I think that's the bias.. it doesn't Look Clean. I mean, the clothes can be absolutely brand-new, spiffy clean, ironed even, if you like, with a crease exactly in the middle, right there, in those stretch pants with the elastic ankles. But somehow, the idea that the person who's in them cares to take That Much, just That Much time with their appearance (remember you never get a second chance to make a first impression), well, I believe that's why I'm so biased against that clothing. I'm not kidding, I see a guy wearing the same outfit he could've jogged in, sweaty and smelly as sin, at the bank, and I just feel like gagging. It's the whole concept of how important are those who lay eyes on ME? Do I have a responsibility to appear clean, well-groomed, presentable? Not to stink?
I've been out with a few slobs. So yeah, I'm totally prejudiced. I'll admit it. None of it might even make sense to you. You could argue till you're blue in the face, even, really reasonably, and it would make no difference to me. Not one whit. Because aesthetics are really important to me. Not overwhelmingly so, as in, my nails are sometimes chipped and I have the occasional bout with exczema, it looks terrible. I wear hats because I can't stand the look of the hair I cut myself.
But I'm clean, and I try to look that way.
:-)
Posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 16:07:34
In reply to I'm Sorry Tenderheart, I was too Aggressive » 10derHeart, posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 15:31:16
I wouldn't call it agressive, exactly.
I do understand everything you said, and agree in principle. I used to agree in practice - like 95% of my life. That was 50+ pounds ago.
Not now. The simple problem is being overweight makes me hate my physical self. Loathe is even a better word. No amount of harping on me that it's what's inside that counts ever helps. I can't even get close to believing that - *about me*. Hah, maybe that's yet another reason Babble is so safe for me. Even though I may admit to it, y'all don't have to LOOK at me, thank goodness.
So, no, when I detest myself, clothed and unclothed, and think no one should have to be ever forced to look at me, I don't give a dam* about my appearance a good portion of my life. Not at all. I mean, I draw the line at the clean thing. I know what you meant and how it just doesn't always *seem* clean, but fact remains, I am clean, no matter the clothes. You can get up real close and do a smell test, if you like. Fresh, I promise :-)
As I was implying, this issue is big. Okay, it's giagantic for me. I wouldn't even touch it with my ex-T. and you do remember how much I adore(d) him. But, partly because I was attracted to him (sorry-don't you get triggered now - I forbid it!) I was mortified to talk about body image, weight, overeating and all that. Just would have had to hide under the furniture and pass him notes. Can you picture that? Because if I talked about it, I was terrified I'd look up, and he be glancing, whereas before I was just me - a me I thought he respected and liked - and instead he'd be really *seeing* and thinking, "OMG, I forgot to notice that roll, and the double chin, and...."
And of course, that would mean he'd find me disgusting. No projection, there, eh?
Oh dear, I've lost it here. This is awful. I won't talk to my T. now about this either. Though I imagine it's slightly important to talk about both something I swear I WON'T talk about, and something that makes me despise myself down to the core.
It's so ridiculous. Over half my female friends -and a couple males - are moderately to seriously overweight. I adore them. I rarely if ever think of their weight, and only in passing, or if they put themselves down. Yet I can give so many reasons I am different.
I've gone on a self-pitying tangent.
I've probably offended people.
I apologize.
Susan, nothing you said was that bad.
I've badly highjacked Dinah's thread. (sorry :-( )I should not Babble for a while.
I seem to have little control over triggers and their resulting emotional outbursts.
I'm leaving.
Maybe late tonight I'll get control of myself.
Everyone, please disregard me.
Venting doesn't even begin to describe this.
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2005, at 16:26:51
In reply to Re: I'm Sorry Tenderheart, I was too Aggressive » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 16:07:34
Silly. You haven't hijacked anything. Watching threads meander is one of the fun parts of Babble.
I always think that whatever I don't want to talk about is what I should talk about. I'm 50+ overweight too, and I detest my body - although it's mainly because the extra weight makes me look like my mom.
It's funny because weight and body image is one of those issues you'd think therapists would bring up naturally, in the course of getting to know you. Yet they don't. Taboo?
The down side is that my therapist and I have discussed this a million times and it doesn't have any effect. :(
Posted by Tamar on May 2, 2005, at 16:54:58
In reply to Re: I'm Sorry Tenderheart, I was too Aggressive » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 16:07:34
> Not now. The simple problem is being overweight makes me hate my physical self. Loathe is even a better word. No amount of harping on me that it's what's inside that counts ever helps. I can't even get close to believing that - *about me*. Hah, maybe that's yet another reason Babble is so safe for me. Even though I may admit to it, y'all don't have to LOOK at me, thank goodness.
Your post struck a chord with me, possibly because I weighed myself today (which I don’t normally do) and I’m well over 220 pounds (I’d like to be 170). I’ve never bought that stuff about what’s inside that counts. That sounds as if we should accept that we’re physically unacceptable. Surely it’s better to hope that we can come to accept our physical selves as they are, and not as mere shells for our personalities?
> As I was implying, this issue is big. Okay, it's giagantic for me. I wouldn't even touch it with my ex-T. and you do remember how much I adore(d) him. But, partly because I was attracted to him (sorry-don't you get triggered now - I forbid it!) I was mortified to talk about body image, weight, overeating and all that. Just would have had to hide under the furniture and pass him notes. Can you picture that? Because if I talked about it, I was terrified I'd look up, and he be glancing, whereas before I was just me - a me I thought he respected and liked - and instead he'd be really *seeing* and thinking, "OMG, I forgot to notice that roll, and the double chin, and...."
>
> And of course, that would mean he'd find me disgusting. No projection, there, eh?I can indeed picture it. I did talk to my T about my loathing for my body (largely because I was avoiding any discussion of my attraction to him). And guess what? He was great. And yes, I watched his body language very closely to detect signs that he might suddenly notice how unattractive I was. But oddly, the reverse seemed to be the case. I guess there’s something in that cliché that confidence is sexy. The better I felt about my body, the better I felt the rapport between us was. I’d bet my house that your current T will not think you are loathsome, if you can bear to broach the subject.
> It's so ridiculous. Over half my female friends -and a couple males - are moderately to seriously overweight. I adore them. I rarely if ever think of their weight, and only in passing, or if they put themselves down. Yet I can give so many reasons I am different.
We’re always harder on ourselves!
> I've gone on a self-pitying tangent.
Not self-pitying. Sorrow. Perfectly natural.> I've probably offended people.
Not me.> I apologize.
No need.> I should not Babble for a while.
> I seem to have little control over triggers and their resulting emotional outbursts.Isn’t that the point about triggers? It’s hard to feel any sense of control? Perhaps all the more reason why you should Babble!
> I'm leaving.
> Maybe late tonight I'll get control of myself.
> Everyone, please disregard me.
> Venting doesn't even begin to describe this.(((((10der)))))
Vent all you want/need.
Posted by anastasia56 on May 2, 2005, at 18:25:45
In reply to Re: I'm Sorry Tenderheart, I was too Aggressive » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 16:07:34
i understand what you are saying and i love your 10derheart...
ana
Posted by Susan47 on May 3, 2005, at 10:37:00
In reply to Re: I'm Sorry Tenderheart, I was too Aggressive » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 16:07:34
You feel bad about yourself, about the way you look because you gained fifty pounds? That just seems, well it is a waste of time, isn't it. Energy and emotion you could be using to find a piece of clothing you like the look of, because maybe it looks spiffy and you feel spiffier in it than you do in sweats, and maybe that fifty pounds all of a sudden isn't as unattractive as you've been making it seem. IMO, I see a person in sweats, and I know right away, that person doesn't care about the impression s/he makes.
Posted by Damos on May 3, 2005, at 17:17:56
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 14:21:31
Hey 10derHeart,
You should know that Sarah O'Hare (the former supermodel)and Pat Rafter (all round nice guy) are the faces of 'tracky dacks' down under. The ultimate fashion statement is trackies and ugh boots.
For the record I hate how I look no matter what I'm wearing and would surely qualify for the dag of the decade award. If you're comfy in jeans and t's you'll always be welcome at my place. Just let me know before you come so I can tidy up a bit ;-)
((((10derHeart))))
Posted by 10derHeart on May 3, 2005, at 17:53:58
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » 10derHeart, posted by Damos on May 3, 2005, at 17:17:56
I have tears in my eyes.
For whatever reason, that may just be the completely nicest, kindest, most accepting thing anyone's taken their precious time to say to me in a LONG time. You have no idea how I needed to read something just like that. (Not that people aren't being nice, here or IRL, it's just...well...you have a way about you...)
And you've been saying you've felt down lately...circling the...drain or something...wasn't that the mental picture?
Hmmph. Either you're feeling better (yeah!! hope so!) or you are an amazingly strong, giving and sweet depressed person.
The thing is, I believe in my bones you mean what you said.
((((damos)))
Posted by anastasia56 on May 3, 2005, at 19:44:03
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Damos, posted by 10derHeart on May 3, 2005, at 17:53:58
you're right, there is something about damos that you know he means, really means, what he says. what a sweetheart.
by the way tenderheart, you can wear whatever the heck you want around me...your halloween costume, that french maids uniform you like to wear when you have male company, that drag queen thingy...
Posted by Damos on May 3, 2005, at 21:50:34
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » 10derHeart, posted by anastasia56 on May 3, 2005, at 19:44:03
Please be advised that the Damo'64 operating system fitted to this model was not supplied with niceness, kindness and appreciation recognition capability and your input has resulted in 'Red Screen' and internal system conflict. The error has been reported to the manufacturer and they are working on developing a system patch.
Seriously, you are both waaaaaay to kind. 10derHeart, I'll have to choose option 1 "feeling better' as the improbability factor on my being the others is beyond my ability to calculate and trying to accept that that was possible may result in another internal system conflict.
Love you both,
damos
Posted by 10derHeart on May 3, 2005, at 22:03:04
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » 10derHeart, posted by anastasia56 on May 3, 2005, at 19:44:03
>...that french maids uniform you like to wear when you have male company,<
Moi? Moi?
ps...uh...what's male company? ;-)>..that drag queen thingy...
well, that's damos' fault...I'd explain why, but, we are about to get kicked over to sexual...err, I meant social....
Posted by 10derHeart on May 3, 2005, at 22:12:20
In reply to Manufacturers message to 10derHeart Ana56, posted by Damos on May 3, 2005, at 21:50:34
>...they are working on developing a system patch.
Now listen here, I'll patch your system alright if you don't QUIT putting yourself down and trying to be all sly about it...remember, as pinkeye so accurately pointed out, you are wandering about in a vast sea of women over here, and we don't miss much, you see..
>> as the improbability factor on my being the others is beyond my ability to calculate and trying to accept that that was possible may result in another internal system conflict.
they weren't mutually exclusive or anything, you stubborn one, you...as I said (with ana's help, too, I'll wager) I'll be showing you some internal system conflict of my own the next time you insult my dear, sweet friend damos.
Got it?!
*runs away to other boards before you can argue*
Posted by Damos on May 3, 2005, at 22:39:23
In reply to Re: Manufacturers message to 10derHeart Ana56 » Damos, posted by 10derHeart on May 3, 2005, at 22:12:20
So we'd be wearing the Discipline Mistress outfit today then?????? Love it. Love You!!!
And did I hear you had a French Maid outfit too Ooooh La La. Don't have an Aussie BBQ Babe outfit too by any chance.
Posted by Susan47 on May 4, 2005, at 11:13:59
In reply to Re: Manufacturers message to 10derHeart Ana56 » 10derHeart, posted by Damos on May 3, 2005, at 22:39:23
Damos, and ana, thank you for soothing the hurt that I so unnecessarily caused Tenderheart. 10derHeart, I hope you can forgive me for being so unkind, it was unthinking of me, I wasn't thinking with my heart at all.. well actually I was but it must've been twisted thinking, I was really trying to say that you're still the same under the sweats as you are under something really Happy, you know, because sweats just don't seem Happy.. now there's an idea. How about sweats WITH FLOWERS? I could actually really like that. See, I'm trying ... I personally would not wear them but I wear jeans and a lot of people wouldn't do that, either. I was a shyster, I'm sorry Tenderheart.
Posted by damos on May 4, 2005, at 21:45:52
In reply to Damos and Anastasia and 10derheart, please., posted by Susan47 on May 4, 2005, at 11:13:59
Hey Susan don't be too tough on yourself (like I can talk), you help so many people and do so much good all across these boards and don't you forget it. Can't speak for 10der but I'm sure she knows you didn't mean to hurt. We just all have some spots that are sorer to touch than others.
Who would have thought that this thread would make me realise that the way I dress and pretty much everything else I do is about being anonymous and invisible and that loosing the safety and protection of that by being so open here with you guys was part of what sent me off the deep end the last couple of weeks. Being really seen is pretty scary.
Posted by anastasia56 on May 5, 2005, at 0:25:55
In reply to Re: Damos and Anastasia and 10derheart, please. » Susan47, posted by damos on May 4, 2005, at 21:45:52
damos is right, tenderheart isn't the type to hold it against you. don't worry, be happy. you do a lot of good helping people on these boards, one glitch doesn't make you the demon child from you know where
Posted by Susan47 on May 5, 2005, at 0:28:03
In reply to Re: Damos and Anastasia and 10derheart, please. » Susan47, posted by damos on May 4, 2005, at 21:45:52
Being seen is wonderful, it's empowering, and yeah, it's really frightening too.
I played this game last year. One day I drove to the grocery store, I was really incredibly depressed, lonely and spaced out. I sat in my car for an hour or so, and I just watched people come and go, come and go. And I was making up scenarios for them, you know, telling a story to myself about who was doing what and why and with whom.. the people I was watching became so interesting. After about an hour, I got out of the car and walked across the parking lot and into the store. And doing that was incredibly scary, after I'd been the observer for so long, so intimately, with so many .. it was really wild, the feeling of being seen like that.
And I'll bet no one even laid eyes on me, if they did they wouldn't have thought anything of me. Being seen is an illusion.
Posted by Damos on May 5, 2005, at 1:37:38
In reply to Re: Damos and Anastasia and 10derheart, please. » damos, posted by Susan47 on May 5, 2005, at 0:28:03
Can't say I've ever done anything like that. I can see clearly though that for me it developed at sometime as a protective/defensive mechanism. So that even if I am somewhere with people I know I make myself invisible and anonymous and just kinda be there without being there if that makes any sense. It's kinda weird to suddenly realise that you do that and have been for a very long time. When I need to be there in a project meeting or something for example it's like I switch this character on so that what needs to happen happens bits of me slip out because sometimes things happen that override the need to self protect. Hmm lots more associated with this messed up relationship stuff, yucky uncomfortable stuff.
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 3:06:14
In reply to Re: Damos and Anastasia and 10derheart, please. » Susan47, posted by damos on May 4, 2005, at 21:45:52
Yes, being really seen is unbelievably scary. (says the person who cherishes her extra pounds because they lend invisibility. Ditto on the grooming.)
But isn't being really and truly seen and really and truly accepted pretty d*mn earthshakingly fabulous? I hope that's what you've experienced here.
Great risks bring great rewards.
Posted by Damos on May 5, 2005, at 17:40:08
In reply to Re: Damos » damos, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 3:06:14
Part of me knows you're right. But a way bigger part of me really fears the light. At least the chronic underachievement and self sabotage all kind of start to fit into an overall pattern now.
Have to admit that being seen here is the best thing I've ever done for me.
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 17:41:37
In reply to Thanks Dinah, posted by Damos on May 5, 2005, at 17:40:08
Posted by 10derHeart on May 7, 2005, at 12:59:09
In reply to Damos and Anastasia and 10derheart, please., posted by Susan47 on May 4, 2005, at 11:13:59
Susan,
Its okay. Like I said in my first post, I know your nature enough to not really be hurt. Maybe I just like to point out the potential when we say stuff like that - on behalf of others in the future.
Who might be more fragile.
Who might misunderstand you.
Who might get upset.
I'm not.
I've just been burnt out.
I have a lot of "Babble fatigue" right now.
And , I'll admit, anything to do with appearance, clothes, weight, the outer stuff - not my favorite subject.
When I say I couldn't bear to even go there with ex-T. and won't now with this T., you can rest assured it's not anyting you did.
It's old, chronic and scary to me.
So that's why I didn't answer you for so long.
Because I just avoid it all together.
Not because you caused any hurt.
It's fine.
I'm thinking it was meant to be that this was mentioned and I took it the way I chose to.
I am a person who avoids almost nothing in therapy.
Except this.
And I suppose that'll have to change soon. :-(
Posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 14:37:39
In reply to Re: Damos and Anastasia and 10derheart, please. » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 7, 2005, at 12:59:09
Yeah, and it always turns out to be the stuff we avoid that's the most crucial. Even therapists avoid talking about the crucial stuff when it's uncomfy for them, so don't feel bad. You're getting there pretty quickly, where you really want to be, if you can see what you're not saying.
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