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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 27, 2005, at 16:06:03
My analysis is getting deeper (read *close to unbearable*), as my younger parts are coming to life more, and clamouring to have their feelings heard and understood. The biggest difficulty that I'm having is that they want different things, and they all seem to be holding so much anger, loneliness and suffering. The youngest parts, still only partly conscious, want to be really, really close to him, but they scarcely dare to feel that or say so, and instead focus intently on the pillow on his couch. It's a new, softer one- more comfortable, sort of enclosing your head a bit- but they missed the old one terribly for a while, and didn't understand why, if he was going to get rid of it, he didn't give it to THEM!
Then there is the girl, about 8 or 9, who doesn't want anyone to come anywhere near her. When she has her say, she is usually terribly angry at the analyst- nothing he says or does pleases her- and, at the same time, she is terrified of driving him away, and of finding out that he hates her (she is already sure that he does).
Then there is ME, looking on aghast at the whole thing. I long for a close and meaningful relationship with my analyst, like what I had in the beginning- one that can take us through all the needs and rages of the younger parts, with the grown me still able to feel connected and supported. I just can't do that right now- I suppose because I'm just not integrated enough as a person, and because the younger parts have such an insecure and disorganized attachment.
The art therapy has turned out to be very helpful and important in all of this. So much of what the younger parts feel is non-verbal, and it is sometimes an enormous strain, in analysis, to try to get their feelings into words- and what few words I can find often don't seem quite right. It is an enormous relief to just let oneself go and draw whatever. Once I see something on paper, I can often talk about it a lot more easily. I know my art therapist will help soothe and contain the feelings that come up as I draw, and that she will also help my analyst know what is happening in ways that I'm not yet very good at doing myself. And sometimes, it is the other way around: a very angry, isolated younger part of me will be very hard on the art therapist, and my analyst will help me understand what is happening, and help me repair the relationship. I have to admit that I am a pretty difficult, acting-out patient just now- and both of the therapists are wonderfully kind and steadfast.
Up until now, I have been using pastels- the kind that you can smear a lot with your hands- very messy and satisfying- and you can keep on changing them as you talk and your feelings may change. But today, we used clay. My art therapist made a lovely duck, (there are ducks in the stream outside my analyst's window, and she wanted, in part, to reinforce the connection to him). I made little images of the imaginary family I made up when I was one and two. Once I'd made them and told her what their names were, I suddenly said, really surprised, "it's nice to SEE them for the first time!" When I went home, I felt so much better..
Posted by Daisym on April 27, 2005, at 19:45:30
In reply to Art therapy update, posted by Pfinstegg on April 27, 2005, at 16:06:03
My analysis is getting deeper (read *close to unbearable*), as my younger parts are coming to life more, and clamouring to have their feelings heard and understood. The biggest difficulty that I'm having is that they want different things, and they all seem to be holding so much anger, loneliness and suffering. The youngest parts, still only partly conscious, want to be really, really close to him, but they scarcely dare to feel that or say so, and instead focus intently on the pillow on his couch. It's a new, softer one- more comfortable, sort of enclosing your head a bit- but they missed the old one terribly for a while, and didn't understand why, if he was going to get rid of it, he didn't give it to THEM!
***Suffering is a really good word. The loneliness is just a killer and these parts have lived alone for so long. I wish he had given them his pillow. He probably didn't even think about it...have they told him yet?
Then there is the girl, about 8 or 9, who doesn't want anyone to come anywhere near her. When she has her say, she is usually terribly angry at the analyst- nothing he says or does pleases her- and, at the same time, she is terrified of driving him away, and of finding out that he hates her (she is already sure that he does).
*****What is it about 9? I just read a bunch of stuff about this age and now I can't remember. I think it is the beginning of becoming a woman and flirting with your dad and all that, so your mom is sort of the enemy. But in our case, or at least mine, it wasn't safe to flirt or try out any of those developing skills because the fantasy is to take mom's place, not to really have it happen. No wonder our 9 year olds are angry! Mine is still refusing mostly to talk in therapy, which is frustrating for our therapist and she knows it. But she doesn't feel safe and she is letting him know that. I watch and find it heartbreaking and terrifying at the same time-- Does that make sense? And she is totally suicidal so when she is out, things are bleak.
Then there is ME, looking on aghast at the whole thing. I long for a close and meaningful relationship with my analyst, like what I had in the beginning- one that can take us through all the needs and rages of the younger parts, with the grown me still able to feel connected and supported. I just can't do that right now- I suppose because I'm just not integrated enough as a person, and because the younger parts have such an insecure and disorganized attachment.
***OH GOD, me too! I'm so glad you wrote this. Part of why I want to stuff all these pieces back in the box is that they get in the way of MY bonding with my therapist. And I really need him right now. I think that is why I'm doing so much phone contact. I can almost always stay in adult mode on the phone. I took in some journal pages today trying to describe what the storm in my head was like -- all these competing voices and needs make me want to explode. Therapy feels really hard right now yet absolutely necessary. We talked about rescue fantasies today -- each part has a different one. (I'll post more on that below). But it was interesting that the adult partially wanted to be rescued from the younger pieces!
The art therapy has turned out to be very helpful and important in all of this. So much of what the younger parts feel is non-verbal, and it is sometimes an enormous strain, in analysis, to try to get their feelings into words- and what few words I can find often don't seem quite right. It is an enormous relief to just let oneself go and draw whatever. Once I see something on paper, I can often talk about it a lot more easily. I know my art therapist will help soothe and contain the feelings that come up as I draw, and that she will also help my analyst know what is happening in ways that I'm not yet very good at doing myself. And sometimes, it is the other way around: a very angry, isolated younger part of me will be very hard on the art therapist, and my analyst will help me understand what is happening, and help me repair the relationship. I have to admit that I am a pretty difficult, acting-out patient just now- and both of the therapists are wonderfully kind and steadfast.
Up until now, I have been using pastels- the kind that you can smear a lot with your hands- very messy and satisfying- and you can keep on changing them as you talk and your feelings may change. But today, we used clay. My art therapist made a lovely duck, (there are ducks in the stream outside my analyst's window, and she wanted, in part, to reinforce the connection to him). I made little images of the imaginary family I made up when I was one and two. Once I'd made them and told her what their names were, I suddenly said, really surprised, "it's nice to SEE them for the first time!" When I went home, I felt so much better..
****I'm glad you felt better. I can see art being a powerful medium. I write and write and write. I think if the art was one-on-one I would like it. I feel pretty self conscious in a class. They sound like a good team. I'm glad you shared all this with us.
****I was thinking about what you said about the imaginary family. I always imagined myself without a family -- alone with only me to take care of. I didn't even like to play with dolls. I wonder what that means?
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 27, 2005, at 20:31:14
In reply to Re: Art therapy update » Pfinstegg, posted by Daisym on April 27, 2005, at 19:45:30
I'm so glad you responded, Daisy. I understand all the things you wrote- and I know you understand me too. That's such a comfort-thanks so much! I hope I can be a bit of comfort for you, too. When things get really hard, I always remember one or another of the wonderful things my analyst has said- especially, "when you don't have hope, I'll have it for both of us". I think we can do that for ourselves, and for one another here.
Yes, the babies did tell him several times how upset they were about the pillow; then they seemed to feel heard, and they calmed down and decided that they liked the new one just as well, if not better.
Because I had a lot of very early deprivation (mother in a mental hospital, with too many substitute caretakers), having the art therapy has been wonderful, as it's basically pre-verbal also. Having the art therapist right there with me, sometimes playing with me, or drawing or modelling alongside me, has made a tremendous difference. It's basically another very important relationship, a lot of which is played out in looks, smiles, laughing, tears, and body language. It means a lot, and has really opened up the analytic therapy- making it a lot more painful, but a lot more inclusive of all my parts.
I have to ask- do you think there are many therapists really trained in treating dissociative disorders, as ours are?
PS. I do hope your husband is better. Did you get to go to the conference with Allen Schore?
Posted by daisym on April 28, 2005, at 0:09:35
In reply to Re: Art therapy update » Daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on April 27, 2005, at 20:31:14
I did get to go to the conference and it was amazing. He was the key note. He talked about the idea of separating complex from complicated...as in, rocket science is complicated but development is complex. So we might think we understand it but there are so many influences on the psyche -- complex influences -- that treatment needs to be equally complex. Not complicated -- complex. He talked a lot about influences on the brain and how powerful emotional merging is and how healing. I think you could hear a pin drop at times! And while I think he might be an amazing analyst, he radiates confidence and power, I couldn't help but think I was glad I had mine, he "feels" more comfortable and besides I like not having to share him with the multitudes.
My husband is still in the hospital and expected to stay there at least until Saturday. He is grumpy and wants to come home. This has been the topic of therapy over the past few days. How do I give him the room he needs to be angry without it triggering me off the deep end again? And why do I think it is all my responsibility? *sigh*
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2005, at 7:15:04
In reply to Re: Art therapy update » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on April 28, 2005, at 0:09:35
I'm glad he is out of danger. Anyone would feel angry at times at having to do so much caring for someone who is chronically ill and grumpy, and who maybe doesn't give as much back. Especially when you are expressing and feeling more of what your own needs are- the little daisies in particular. It just hurts horribly
I was thrilled with Allan Schore because of the clarity of his ideas about how early traumas and deficits are healed- through emotional connections, and building new circuitry in the right hemispheres, as you say- and how he has combined his knowledge of neuroscience with his role as a practicing psychoanalyst. He seemed to be a real leader in these areas, and I felt so hopeful for myself, and everyone like me, after hearing him. But, I agree with you, I like my own warm and dear analyst far better. And I of course like yours very much vicariously! Both of them seem so good at emotional containment. I notice, as I read threads here, that when there is a good emotional connection to a therapist, it is worth a thousand reasoned interpretations. We are both going through very tough times, but I do think that we are very lucky- and that real healing lies ahead of us.
Posted by Shortelise on April 28, 2005, at 12:08:33
In reply to Art therapy update, posted by Pfinstegg on April 27, 2005, at 16:06:03
Pfinstegg, you write so well about this stuff. You seem to be moving through it with a clear sense of what's what, and it impresses the Szechuan out of me.
I loved painting in art therapy. I loved filling the page, edge to edge. I did lots of self portraits. All those different selves. And when my cat died, I did a self portrait of my cat. She had my face.
Please keep us posted. I am a distant bystander to your analysis - obviously - but as with so many I read here, I learn something, my understanding of myself, my understanding of the world, increases.
Thanks
ShortE
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2005, at 14:44:37
In reply to Re: Art therapy update » Pfinstegg, posted by Shortelise on April 28, 2005, at 12:08:33
Thanks ShortE! I didn't know that you had had art therapy also. I know just what you mean= all those portraits of different selves, and filling up the paper to the edge. I'm also following your journey as well. I'm so impressed about what you accomplished in your therapy- all the feelings you dealt with- and how much you grew and changed. And now you've got the really hard one-termination- and it looks as though you are making your way through that, too- not easily, but well. You must have a terrific therapist!
Posted by daisym on April 28, 2005, at 19:37:37
In reply to Re: Art therapy update » Shortelise, posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2005, at 14:44:37
P -
I was telling my therapist about your post on art therapy and I said, "She goes to analysis FIVE times a week -- and works fulltime. I don't know how she does it!"
He looked at me sort of amazed for a minute and then said, "but you come 3 or 4 times a week and we talk on the phone on fridays -- and you work day and night - - so..so...are you telling me you are finding this too hard?"
I swear I opened and closed my mouth 10 times and then just laughed at myself. And then of course went right back to it with "do YOU think I come too much?" Which led to a great discussion of his opinion that each person needs a different level of support at different times and he thinks we should all be flexible and not put value judgements on therapy. So "no, he didn't think I was coming too much". And "no, he wasn't sick of me". And "no, he wasn't planning on backing me off anytime soon".
"Next question!" (I think he likes to say that now.) :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2005, at 20:29:54
In reply to You'll laugh at this. » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on April 28, 2005, at 19:37:37
Oh, I did laugh! I'm so exhausted that I don't know if I'm coming or going, and I bet you are, too. You have THREE teenagers- well, one almost twenty. I have a 29 year old, about to get his doctorate in physics from Princeton, and get married to what has to be the prettiest physicist anywhere, and also a six-year old, born unexpectedly when I was 47: he's (so adorable- as is the other one) the ring-bearer for the October wedding! I really don't know what I'm doing, one day to the next. But somehow the work gets done, probably on automatic pilot a lot of the time, and I do trust both of these therapists- they are so loving and caring- I just have to let go and trust that it's going to be for the best, no matter how impossibly hard, and just plain out of control it all seems at the moment.
I just hope that within a year or two, we will both be able to post the kind of things that ShortE (and a few others) do- that we have made it through.
Posted by Daisym on April 28, 2005, at 22:48:31
In reply to You'll laugh at this. » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on April 28, 2005, at 19:37:37
You have a six year old!! Ok, you win. I've been thankful lately that my youngest is 13 - old enough to care for himself a lot of the time. The fact that he has anxiety makes it harder to leave him, but his brothers are very good at distracting him.
Do you talk to your kids about therapy and the work you are doing? I don't much, though my youngest knows that I go and who my therapist is. At one point he was interested in meeting my therapist, because of his own therapy adventures. We haven't done this, I feel too young and vulnerable when I'm there to allow it right now.
Another question: Today my therapist invited my nine-year old to come into session and talk with him. He has been reading her journaling. I told him it frightened me to let her in, that she was angry and pretty suicidal and last time she was really out it caused a rupture between us. This is the wrong time for that. How do you, (can you?) titrate which age states gets to talk and how much? I'm really worried about the road we are about to go down.
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2005, at 23:37:49
In reply to Re: You'll laugh at this. » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2005, at 20:29:54
Well, I don't know if it's exactly "winning', but, there he is! My husband says he doesn't know whether he is keeping us young, aging us rapidly- or some dreadful combination of both. Actually, it's really wonderful. I am quite careful about what I say to the young one (basically nothing), but I do try to be quite frank with the older one. I noticed that when he saw that I was depressed, he tended to blame himself, so I have gradually told him, over a number of years, what happened to me when I was a child- not graphically, but in a clear enough way so that he can understand the relationship between what hapened to me then, and what I struggle with now. I can't be sure, but I think it has cleared the air quite a lot. He's old enough now to see me as a person separate from himself, with flaws and shortcomings. I hope he sees me as doing my best, and as not trying to involve him in my problems. We have a very warm relationship-always have had, but it is even better now that he has fallen in love with this lovely girl. Having only sons, it's just wonderful to think of having a daughter! And I'm getting a really terrific one. I hope that when the time comes to be more open and candid about myself with the little one, that I'll be able to use the past tense a bit more! One thing I have realized, with immense relief- the major impact of the abuse can stop with me, and doesn't have to continue down into another generation. I was very worried about that the whole time the older one was growing up, but he really does seem to be well and happy, and that has given me much more confidence the younger one. What do you do with yours?
It sounds like we both have raging 9 year olds right now! I just let whatever happens happen. I have to. When you go into analysis, you just make the one, so hard commitment- to say whatever is on your mind, every moment, every day. It's at once a privilege and an enormous burden- I think privilege more, overall. But it sounds to me as if you must essentially be in analysis, too- four sessions a week, plus a telephone one on Friday? Even though you don't use that word, it must be very similiar, and your therapist sounds analytically trained- at least in the depth with which he pursues things, and the interactive focus that he seems to have. I should say that I only spend certain amounts of time lying down on the couch. Probably more than half is face to face. There seem to be important reasons for each way. Face to face is best for the really hard times, when you really do need to see and sort of unconsciously take in another face. Lying down is wonderful for calmer times, when you have gotten through one crisis, and are able to regress back into seeing what else might be there in your unconscious. Almost invariably, we are in synch about this: after sitting up for, say, 20 minutes, it suddenly flashes through my mind that I'd like to lie down. So often, at that very moment, he will say, "do you feel like lying down?"
Posted by daisym on April 29, 2005, at 0:21:45
In reply to Re: You'll laugh at this. » Pfinstegg, posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2005, at 23:37:49
I've noticed that certain age states pull all the way up on the couch and sit sort of tucked up. But I always face him. I guess it is a trust thing...actually, I think it is more of a radar thing. I'm scanning all the time to see if there are shifts in how he feels. And I need the eye contact to stay grounded sometimes.
As far as my boys go, it is hard to look at some of the things I do that are outgrowths from what happen to me. But I don't think I've harmed them, just been over-protective in many ways. I was talking today about my husband's hospitalization and how it has really opened up a flood of memories of when my mother was hospitalized when I was 7. She was gone for at least a month and that is when I remember the abuse starting. I was astonished to hear myself say "I'm taking care of my kids all by myself while their dad is gone because I don't want anyone to hurt them." Stuff like that sneaks up on me, protecting them against old hurts. It makes it so much harder during times like this because I tend to isolate myself and my family. But at least I'm figuring out why.
Posted by annierose on April 29, 2005, at 7:00:34
In reply to Re: You'll laugh at this. » Pfinstegg, posted by Pfinstegg on April 28, 2005, at 23:37:49
Sorry for cutting into your conversation. I go to therapy 3x per week, and lie down more often than not. Like Pfinstegg, I sit up when I'm angry or I feel like I need to reconnect with her, (I told her "I need to be sure that you're there."). But I do prefer lieing down 90% of the time, once I got accustomed to it.
Regarding telling kids. I have a 11 year old with anxiety that also goes to therapy. My T has encouraged me to tell her about my childhood in small doses. Last week when my daughter and I had a heart to heart (after some kids called her a nerd at school) she cried. I saw it as a breakthrough of sorts. Instead of her being angry over what she sees as an unfair life, I got through to her real hurt.
Funny story, one evening my daughter was angry with me "Mom, you're ruining my life" when I told her she had to get off the computer. She quipped back, "I'm going to call your therapist and tell her that you are the worse mom in the world." My husband and I laughed out loud, which took her by surprise. She turned off the computer and hugged me. Girls = hormones. One minute I'm her favorite person, and 30 seconds later, I'm extremely unpopular. So happy I have a boy too, who is all love and hugs.
Posted by Daisym on April 29, 2005, at 10:33:15
In reply to Re: You'll laugh at this Dasiy » Pfinstegg, posted by annierose on April 29, 2005, at 7:00:34
No problem cutting in, Annie. I'm glad you are here. :)
I laugh when my youngest says things like, "he REALLY needs to talk about his stuff" or when he is brutally honest about something. You can see three years of therapy written all over him. At one point he was a peer helper. His way of helping was to hand out his therapist's cards.
I haven't talked to my kids about what happened to me. They have a relationship with their grandparents. I often wonder if all of this would have been different if I had girls. I'm hyper-vigilient enough. My husband seems to think I've blown is out of propotion, but then again, I've only said things like "I was touched inappropriately" -- it is really hard to talk about still.
I still am amazed you guys lie down. I could never do that. I wonder how it would feel if the therapist would lie down...
Posted by annierose on April 30, 2005, at 7:35:27
In reply to Re: You'll laugh at this » annierose, posted by Daisym on April 29, 2005, at 10:33:15
Dasiy -
I can see why you wouldn't share the details with your husband and children re: the CSA. You're right. That would alter their relationship with their grandparents. Although, it's pretty amazing you still have a relationship with them at all.My T was encouraging me to share the pain and lonliness I felt as a child (in a family of 7), so my daughter wouldn't feel all alone. Now that she knows that my parents were not the best set of parents in the world, she does see them differently and, can I say, more accurately. Over Easter break we visited them. My daughter asked me, "why is your dad always angry?" and "how come grandma is always napping?".
Lieing down? It was such a struggle to get there. My T encouraged me to try it. She said that it's easier to get to those hurt places. We talked about it for months. I set a deadline in my head, and that first time I tried it, I heard trains running through my brain. It was so loud inside my head. The longest 45 minutes of my life. I told her I would give it 3 weeks. At the end of the 3 weeks, although it was still difficult, I did feel closer to her, so I continued. Months later, it's much more comfortable, and I know, I can sit at anytime.
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 1, 2005, at 0:28:15
In reply to Re: You'll laugh at this » annierose, posted by Daisym on April 29, 2005, at 10:33:15
You mean what if *they* lay down, maybe on another couch, while we are lying down? Oh. gosh! Or do you mean, what if they lay down next to us? There IS room, if you squeeze over! I wish I hadn't thought of that, as I bet it will come to mind Monday at 8:05 AM, and then I'll have to say it! Lying down so near them- you feel so vulnerable, and say the most intimate and private things. I like it, like Annie- it's a sort of amazing privilege, and it can be stunning what you experience and learn. But I think I would collapse into terrified giggles if my analyst so much as budged an inch from his chair, let alone if HE lay down! ANYWHERE! Daisy, you're not supposed to make it any more embarrassing than it already is!
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 1, 2005, at 0:40:44
In reply to Re: You'll laugh at this » Daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on May 1, 2005, at 0:28:15
Just kidding. I can already hear him giggling, himself , as he often does when I tell him some of the funny and wonderful things I hear on Babble. And speaking of that, I was amazed at how interested the art therapist is in some of the emotional exchanges that go on here. She actually asked if I'd be willing to give her some print-outs that she could use in her teaching, to accompany the slides she uses of artwork that patients in therapy have made. She's quite young, and much more a part of the internet age in her way of thinking than my analyst is. i thought it was a great idea- you can't really beat it for honesty and candour.
This is the end of the thread.
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