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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by rockymtnhi on June 4, 2004, at 17:40:15
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by Somaticide on June 4, 2004, at 13:33:31
Gosh, it can be frustrating to have symptoms that cannot be addressed easily by a physician.
My daughter had something similiar that took years to diagnose. It was not psychosematic. However, she was not treated very well while the doctors were trying to treat her symptoms.Yep, I can see how this puts a stress on your husband because we experienced the same thing.
Post anytime that you feel you need some support. It helps just having someone to talk to.
Take care.
Posted by shadows721 on June 4, 2004, at 22:32:38
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by Somaticide on June 4, 2004, at 13:33:31
Are these body memories? In other words, the body is remembering what the mind is chosing to forget. Since the other siblings have this too, were they abused in the same manner?
Posted by shadows721 on June 4, 2004, at 22:33:43
In reply to Does anyone else have somatization disorder?, posted by Somaticide on June 4, 2004, at 12:48:48
I have had body memories.
Posted by shadows721 on June 4, 2004, at 22:49:05
In reply to Re: Does anyone else have somatization disorder?, posted by shadows721 on June 4, 2004, at 22:33:43
Is this the same as conversion disorder?
Posted by shadows721 on June 5, 2004, at 1:18:37
In reply to Does anyone else have somatization disorder?, posted by Somaticide on June 4, 2004, at 12:48:48
I just read all of your posts on the other boards. Yes, I can relate to what you are going through, but I don't have the exact symptoms. From my understanding, there is an internal conflict at play that is not conscious. This takes a lot of therapy and hypnosis to resolve.
Posted by Somaticide on June 5, 2004, at 12:55:11
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by shadows721 on June 4, 2004, at 22:32:38
There are 6 kids in my family, 3 boys and 3 girls. I know for sure that my eldest sister and myself were sexually abused by my Grandfather. My youngest sister thinks she may have been, but is not sure if her memories are real or not.
My Father was an abusive strict disciplinarian.
Out of the six children,from oldest to youngest, here is the psychological breakdown:
Sister - Hospitalized twice for depression and suicide attemts. Has been prescribed Prozac and Xanax in the past.
Brother - Highly successful buisiness man. No known psychological problems.
Brother - Has panic attacks, sensation of lump in throat, is extremely thin and looks emaciated. Abuses drugs and alcohol.
Myself (female) - PTSD, Clinical Depression, Anxiety Disorder, Somatization Disorder.
Sister - OCD, Depression, and Anxiety. Currently on Wellbutrin and Zoloft.
Brother - Depression and has been prescribed Prozac in the past. I suspect now he is self-medicating with alcohol and has become agoraphobic. One unsuccessful suicide attempt.
I do not know if my Grandfather did anything to my youngest brother as he is very quiet and reluctant to talk about anything, but I suspect he may have crossed over from sexually abusing just the girls. My Grandfather is dead now.
I find it interesting that you brought up the fact that my urinary/vulvar burning may be somatically related to the sexual abuse. I will bring this up at my next therapy session on June 28th.
Thanks for the insight!
Posted by Somaticide on June 5, 2004, at 13:17:49
In reply to Re: Does anyone else have somatization disorder?, posted by shadows721 on June 5, 2004, at 1:18:37
Thanks shadows. I don't know what conversion disorder is, however I think I understand what you mean by body memories. I am going to ask my therapist about the body memories. Thanks again!!
Posted by shadows721 on June 5, 2004, at 15:49:34
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by Somaticide on June 5, 2004, at 12:55:11
I felt from reading your symptoms it reminding me of myself. I had symptoms before memories. Marriage was my trigger. I suspect that this abuser was brutal as was mine. There is a reason for the memories coming up this way. It's because it was just too much for a young child to handle. I can also suspect that this man abused most of your siblings from their symptoms. They are really suffering the aftermath. I bet as with mine they are very afraid of this man unconsciously. Even though someone is dead, the mind thinks they are still living an a threat.
I can only imagine what the burning is from. Water is what jumps in my mind, but only you know the truth. It will go away when the memory is resurfaced and dealt with. It sounds like an extremely painful memory.
I too suffer from these plaques of symptoms and its hard to tell the real from the unreal. They feel real, but they don't show up on tests. It's like a hidden enemy. In a way, it is. It's the abuse from the past that was forgotten that is playing hell with the body. I suspect you and your siblings are dissociative as well. There is a part of you that knows exactly what all this is about. I suspect this is a very very young child. They are using the body as their message board to you. It takes a lot of therapy to get to the point where you are ready to listen to the truth. It's just so sad to hear. There's a very brave child in there with a story to tell the adult you. You see there were no words to communicate what she went through for you. There was no protection from such an evil man.
My therapy started from symptoms. I went, because of all the depression and anxiety. But, I had to start talking about me and not the symptoms to start the ball going. Hypnosis opened the flood gates to Hell on Earth type of abuse. The suicide thoughts played out too, but they replay of the threats of the abuser - "Tell and you will die." This is going to be some very difficult work. It feels like walking through a dark forest with land minds.
Please keep in touch.
Posted by fires on June 5, 2004, at 23:59:30
In reply to Does anyone else have somatization disorder?, posted by Somaticide on June 4, 2004, at 12:48:48
I've known a great many people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which some MDs consider a somataform illness.
Most of us, think that somatization syndrome is a catch all category for little understood physical illnessses.
One might ask the Dr. whom Dxes one with that disorder how he can prove that one has that disorder? Answer would be quite interesting.
Thanks
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2004, at 10:06:01
In reply to Somatization Disorder, posted by Somaticide on June 3, 2004, at 21:53:09
I'm not sure how much I buy the idea of somatization. It turns out that the same chemicals that affect anxiety depression are also involved in migraines, intestinal processes, and the like.
I've got migraines, irritable bowel syndrome, anxiety, and a touch of mood disorder (cyclothymia maybe - someplace low on the bipolar spectrum). I also get various aches and pains at times. Am I expressing my anxiety and anger through body symptoms? Or are are my problems with chemical balance (especially serotonin) affecting all parts of my body - not just my mind? There tends to be a whole cluster of symptoms that go together and all seem to be tied in to the same chemical systems, especially serotonin and the cholinergic system.
I suspect that many "somatic" complaints are legitimate health concerns that doctors just don't fully understand. And things are getting better. The new acute migraine treatments involve serotonin, and it's now known that migraines involve cascades of serotonin.
I would be suspicious of any therapist who talked about somatization without mentioning any of the medical facts. That being said, a therapist can help a lot by helping to teach techniques and providing a "holding" environment and place to release pressure that might prevent stressors from triggering flareups of chemical troubles.
And I could be wrong, but things like hysterical blindness or paralysis are known as something other than somatization aren't they?
Posted by 64Bowtie on June 7, 2004, at 13:58:04
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by shadows721 on June 4, 2004, at 22:32:38
So much is stored places we don't think to look. A background sense we all have is propriaceptor, some times referred to as our kinescetic sense, or sense of movement and placement of objects.
In order for this sense to work, our muscles acquire a memory to regulate speed, force, distance and release. Example is the baseball pitcher. The pitcher could walk up to the catcher and place the ball in the mit, but where's the fun in that. So, the pitcher's body does something miraculous. By practice, practice, and more practice, the pitcher's body habituates (forms a habit) to release the ball at an exact moment to send it to the mit safely and accurately, from 66.5 feet away.
Too many of my "bad" habits have components in "muscle memory" such that I go down that path of dysfunction, often without my brain engaged at all. Why do I feel good about that path until that moment we all dread when what we are doing, all turns BAD? I surmize its because I have acted on the faith that I "am being taken care of".
So my body let me down? No. I didn't take enough care and my body did the best it could. "Muscle memory" has no facts, only feelings.
What do you think?
Rod
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 7, 2004, at 14:21:49
In reply to Somatization Disorder, posted by Somaticide on June 3, 2004, at 21:53:09
I'm finding this disorder hard to understand. I am in remission from hypochondria. Is it the same thing? I lost my sense of smell for over a year and a half due to anxiety and depression. IS that considered hysterical? It seems this disorder and hypochondria are one in the same. Is that true?
Posted by shadows721 on June 7, 2004, at 15:14:45
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 7, 2004, at 14:21:49
From what I understand about this disorder, it is a body ailment or illness representative of an emotional conflict. Here are some examples, a person who is not consciously grieving over a death comes in with pains in their chest area. A person who has unconscious guilt over killing people during a war looses use of their arm that was used to shoot. A person with no memories of sexual abuse has pains in their groin. In all situations, there is nothing wrong physically with the person. The mind is causing the symptoms. The person really feels these things. They focus on the symptoms and not the underlying issue. In most cases, the patient doesn't really realize the real issue until in the therapy setting. It is as though the body is speaking the true feelings.
I feel hypochondria is different.
Posted by shadows721 on June 7, 2004, at 15:37:58
In reply to » shadows --- Body Memories? --- Great question, posted by 64Bowtie on June 7, 2004, at 13:58:04
Oh, I defiantly agree that muscle has memory. They say that is true in physical therapy. A person who was in great shape prior to an injury muscle will be easier to retrain than a person who has never been in shape.
The theory of body memories that I was speaking about in relation to the above post was in regard to symptoms. When a child is physically or sexual abused, there is a separation between the body and mind. The mind dissociates from the body. Some folks say they see their body from the ceiling when abused. Some say they walked through a wall into another room, so they didn't feel a beating. I feel as though an abusers hands are literally around my throat and there is no one there. That's an example of what I have in terms of body memories. I literally feel abuse, but no one is there. Perhaps, a better term should be a body flashback. A body memory can replay over and over again though if there is an unresolved memory. This will be resolved as one works though the memory of the abuse. These are not uncommon with people where severe abuse occurred and there is total amnesia. Some people say during a massage they will remember what happened to them during abuse. For them, touch was the trigger for the memory.
As far as a muscles having feelings, I feel there is so much that we don't know about the body still.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 7, 2004, at 15:52:16
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by shadows721 on June 7, 2004, at 15:14:45
everything you describe fits my hypochondria. I had an episode where I had all of the classic symptoms of MS - tingling, loss of motor control, blurry vision, the works. I even had a brain scan to rule out MS. I was perfectly fine. Within 2 days of the scan all of my "symptoms" went away. I later convinced myself I had Parkinsons - had trembling, twitching, speech problems. That's when I got myself to a shrink.
For me, the $5,000 brain scan proved there was nothing physically wrong with me, that my body was just mirroring all of the wmotional distress which had built up over 34 years. When I asked my T why this was happening to me now, he asked, "Why does water boil?" I shrugged my shoulders. "Beacuse it is simply TIME to boil."
So I had all of the classic symptoms of disease. I lost 40 pounds in 2 months. And the more I read about a certain disease, the mmore symptoms I would take on. It was truly the worst time in my life. As I mentioned I even lost my sense of smell for almost 2 years.
So I'm thinking there must be other definers involved for Somatization disorder, unless it is the new PC way to say hypochondria.
The mind body connection is absolutely fascinating.
Posted by shadows721 on June 7, 2004, at 18:41:02
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder » shadows721, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 7, 2004, at 15:52:16
I believe that the ones I gave an example of early are actually called Hysterical Neurosis (Conversion Reaction; Conversion Disorder; Dissociative reaction; Dissociative Disorder).
These three dx are bit similiar. I thought that I should clarify.
Here is a brief review of the three:
HYSTERICAL NEUROSIS
A neurotic disorder characterized by a wide variety of somatic and mental symptoms resulting from dissociation, typically beginning during adolescense or early adulthood and occurring more commonly in women than men.Conversion syptoms: Almost any organ disease symptom can be simulated on an hysterical basis; eg, symptoms mimicking the illness of a deceased relative. A variety of sensorimotor symptoms have been considered to be specific to and characteristic of hysterical neurosis. Weakness & paralysis of muscular groups are common; spasms and abnormal movements, less frequent. The motor disturbances are usually accompanied by altered sensibility, esp. those involving touch, pain, temp. and position sense. Less freq., special senses and fuctions such as blindness, deafness, and aphonia; both visual and auditory hallucinations may occur. The symptoms represent a symbolic expression and resolution of psychologic conflicts.
SOMATIZATION DISORDER (Briquet's syndrome)
A neurotic illness charachterized by the presense of multiple somatic symptoms, including those seen in classic conversion hysteria. Patients usually consult a MD other than a psychiatrist. This disorder begins in adolescense or early adulthood, occurs predominantly in women and tends to be assoc. with sociopathy and alcoholism in male relatives.Symptoms & signs: Central to the disorder is the presence of multiple, vague somatic complaints that may be referable to any part of the body but most commonly take the form of headaches, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, bowel difficulties, dysmenorrhea, fatigue, syncope, dypareunia, and sexual frigidity. Anxiety & depression are common accompaniments. Often dissatisfied with their care, these patients may go from MD to MD.
HYPOCHONDRIACAL NEUROSIS (Hypochondriasis; Atypical Somatoform disorder)
A disorder characterized by a preoccupation with bodily functions and a morbid fear that one is suffering from a serious disease. The peak incidence of onset is in the 30s in men and the 40s in women.Symptoms & signs: The hypochondriacal pt. complains of symptoms in a wide variety of body parts, most commonly in the abdominal, chest, head, and neck. The specific symptom may be based on a heightened awareness of bodily sensation or minor disorders of function. Although the symptoms described by the pt may be odd or bizarre, they are not delusional in quality.
Posted by shadows721 on June 7, 2004, at 18:45:47
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder » shadows721, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 7, 2004, at 15:52:16
That must have been so frustrating Miss Honeychurch. I can't imagine not being able to smell for that long. That would effect they way things taste too.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 8, 2004, at 2:22:25
In reply to Somatization/hysterical neurosis/hypochondria, posted by shadows721 on June 7, 2004, at 18:41:02
Ok, I think I understand the difference now. Thanks for posting that!
And yes, the loss of smell was really frustrating. But, if I had to lose any sense, that was the one to lose. FRankly, I never had a good sense of smell to begin with. But I missed smelling perfume and food cooking. However, it REALLY helps with weight control. You have no idea how much smell triggers your appetite when you are not hungry!
Posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 8:38:44
In reply to Somatization/hysterical neurosis/hypochondria, posted by shadows721 on June 7, 2004, at 18:41:02
Thanks for the clarification!
It's that middle one that I have trouble with. I probably have enough vague physical complaints to qualify, but I still think not enough attention is paid to the fact that "brain" chemicals affect more than the brain. It shouldn't be surprising that there are clusters of symptoms related to serotonin regulation dysfunction, from anxiety and depression to intestinal disturbances to migraines, that are often written off as "somatization disorder" when they could have a purely physical basis.
Posted by shadows721 on June 8, 2004, at 16:15:18
In reply to Re: Somatization/hysterical neurosis/hypochondria » shadows721, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 8:38:44
Dinah, you are so right and make a really good point. Maybe one day, they will find a physical cause (brain chemical imbalance) that causes any of these three.
Posted by shadows721 on June 8, 2004, at 16:35:21
In reply to Re: Somatization/hysterical neurosis/hypochondria, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 8, 2004, at 2:22:25
Honestly, Miss Honeychurch, I find these confusing too. I have been saying that I somatize, because I suffer from the hysterical neurosis (Conversion/Dissociative disorder). I don't think that I have been using the correct terminology now. I think that I was getting somatization disorder and hysterical neurosis disorder confused. I don't hear that term hysterical neurosis disorder used as much as dissociative disorder. I guess that's because, pts like I don't look hysterical (i.e, anxious and depressed).
Posted by coral on June 10, 2004, at 16:00:50
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2004, at 10:06:01
Most of us experience, to some degree, a somatization response/reaction. Some common examples include tension headaches, nervousness/upset stomach from having to speak in public, sweaty palms on a first date. I think the concept of "disorder" comes from the degree of somatizing and/or lack of awareness of psychological triggers.
Sadly, this is often cursed w/a concept of "blaming the vicitm."
Posted by ghost on June 14, 2004, at 0:14:38
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2004, at 10:06:01
I think the body and the mind are of one entity. this disorder makes perfect sense in that the body is expressing what the mind cannot, when usually it is th emind expressing what the body cannot.
from a psychological standpoint, this is fascinating. but from a realistic standpoint, i can only imagine what it's like to relive the hell of abuse every day years and years after it has stopped. even after the abuser is dead. it has to be a living nightmare.
if i had to make a guess and give a vague answer, i'd say that your problems are both your expression of your anxiety and anger as well as the chemical imbalance affecting your physical health. i think it's cyclic.
it's fascinating and makes me wonder about my own health. something to write in the journal tonight, i guess. thanks for getting my brain working.
Posted by MADMAN3070 on June 20, 2004, at 22:03:50
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder » Dinah, posted by ghost on June 14, 2004, at 0:14:38
I think many of you are wrong. By not believing that you have this disorder, you show that you do have it. Every new pain I had I thought I had something really wrong. Sometimes they cant find out whats wrong. If the Dr. say your Ok, you owe it to yourself to belive it. Get on with your life. Or live in pain believing you have every problem on the planet untill you do.
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2004, at 22:13:34
In reply to Re: Somatization Disorder, posted by MADMAN3070 on June 20, 2004, at 22:03:50
> I think many of you are wrong. By not believing that you have this disorder, you show that you do have it.
I've never been particularly fond of any diagnosis whose proof is that you don't believe you have it.
> If the Dr. say your Ok, you owe it to yourself to belive it.
Doctors have been known to be wrong. Just ask th family of Gilda Radner, whose ovarian tumor was the size of an orange before the doctors realized that her symptoms weren't psychosomatic. And migraines have long been considered part of the psychosomatic realm, yet they now have brain scans and chemical results that show exactly what happens when a migraine occurs. Irritable bowel syndrome - ditto. Both involve serotonin.
> Get on with your life. Or live in pain believing you have every problem on the planet untill you do.I am very happy for you if you found that helpful. For myself I'm glad I consulted the migraine neurologist and discovered triptans.
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