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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 7:05:59
In reply to Re: Not feeling that well. » Michael83, posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 6:50:37
One more thought on the subject of blasphemy. Roman Emperor Constantine was a pagan before his conversion to Christianity.
There were statues of him in Pagan temples throughout the roman empire. He, himself, was a God I think - most emperors were considered deities.
You really can't get more blasphemous than that, and yet now he is a saint in the Christian church.
There is forgiveness through Christ and one can become sanctified - even with a history of blasphemy.
There is evidence of this throughout the church.
Posted by rayww on February 20, 2007, at 15:48:11
In reply to Re: Not feeling that well. » madeline, posted by Michael83 on February 19, 2007, at 21:57:50
> I'm trying to figure out, is "Mark 3:28-29" the truth? Am I guilty of this?
Michael I'm wondering how you define damnation. This is one definition: "The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and his glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. "
Damnation here is like a dam of water. The water wants to get out, but can't until it is released.
There is such unwaranted fear among Christians. Sometimes I think most would rather give up than try because of it. I just read a good article. This guy has taken the Bible, and compared it to existing religions, and picked out the truth and errors. I thoroughly enjoyed reading his ideas, and thought it might answer some of your questions. I don't agree with some of what he says, but he says a lot that I do agree with.
http://www.thercg.org/books/wigtc.html
Posted by AuntieMel on February 20, 2007, at 17:16:51
In reply to Re: Not feeling that well. » Michael83, posted by madeline on February 19, 2007, at 20:08:24
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
Please rephrase this post.
Keep in mind that we need to have respect for all faiths equally, your statement needs to reflect that this is your belief. It can't be stated as if it is fact.
This is true even when quoting others.
AuntieMel - acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
Posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:37:15
In reply to Re: Please Rephrase » madeline, posted by AuntieMel on February 20, 2007, at 17:16:51
I personally believe the passage in the bible that states
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)How's that?
Posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:46:49
In reply to Lou's response - aspectsof madeline's post-repthe?, posted by Lou PIlder on February 19, 2007, at 20:39:05
Hey, I was just quoting the Bible.
I'm not a biblical scholar, and I have absolutely no idea how to address your points. I also did not intend for that verse to be an endorsement of any kind for any one faith over any other faith.
It was just simply a bible verse that I thought applicable to the current discussion.
That's it, no more no less.
Maddie
Posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:52:02
In reply to Not feeling that well., posted by Michael83 on February 18, 2007, at 23:53:21
Good luck Michael with your quest. I wish you hope and peace.
Posted by Declan on February 20, 2007, at 21:44:10
In reply to And with that, I am off the faith board., posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:52:02
Me too.
But before I go, do you know that there is, somewhere in the Old Testament, a prohibition on eating the flesh of griffins?
Perhaps someone with a decent knowledge of the Old Testament can help here?
Posted by rayww on February 20, 2007, at 22:25:34
In reply to Re: Please Rephrase » madeline, posted by AuntieMel on February 20, 2007, at 17:16:51
> "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
>
> Please rephrase this post.
>
> Keep in mind that we need to have respect for all faiths equally,
AuntieMel, are you saying a person cannot bring their feelings of confusion about religion here? Your comment shows no respect for Michael or Madeline.
Posted by Michael83 on February 21, 2007, at 5:27:41
In reply to little by little » Michael83, posted by rayww on February 20, 2007, at 0:18:25
rayww, I hope you're right, but you know you cannot expect me to give weight to anyone who thinks they know the nature of God.
I don't need to be "right" about knowing who God is, but I just want the assurance that my position is justified in God's eyes.
>>>>So, why would you give up on Him?
My biggest concerns are, is it my fault if I do give up?
Shouldn't God say, "I don't blame you for giving up."?
>>>>I have faith that God will teach you too, but you've got to ask.
My problem is that I have asked, and the response I've gotten is my now Deist beliefs.
My concern is that I have millions of other humans telling me I'm going to hell for simply following my logic.
I have a sound answer to my religious beliefs, but with everyone in this world constantly running around pointing fingers and telling everyone they're going to hell, it's hard to hold steady in my own understanding.
>>>>but hopes we will choose him.
May I ask, does He expect us to choose Him? Or if we're wrong in who we choose, will he blame us for that mistake?
Posted by Michael83 on February 21, 2007, at 5:37:53
In reply to And with that, I am off the faith board., posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:52:02
Thank you for your help madeline.
Posted by rayww on February 22, 2007, at 0:06:41
In reply to Re: little by little » rayww, posted by Michael83 on February 21, 2007, at 5:27:41
> My problem is that I have asked, and the response I've gotten is my now Deist beliefs.
> My concern is that I have millions of other humans telling me I'm going to hell for simply following my logic.
> I have a sound answer to my religious beliefs, but with everyone in this world constantly running around pointing fingers and telling everyone they're going to hell, it's hard to hold steady in my own understanding.<<<I can't see why any person would think they knew who was going to hell, when only God can judge. What is hell? Does anyone even know???? If hell is the same as damnation it is simply being in a place that is dammed up away from the presence of God. It is hard for me to imagine what it would feel like were God to completely withdraw his spirit from this earth. I feel close to Him and sustained day by day. I don't know how it would feel to not have Him close by. But I guarantee I would not like to be separated from God.
> May I ask, does He expect us to choose Him? Or if we're wrong in who we choose, will he blame us for that mistake?<<<
It isn't Him blaming us for our mistakes as much as it is our grouping ourselves with others who think the same as we do.<<<<
The God of the OT seems harsh, critical, demanding, and strict, while the God of the NT is loving, compassionate, and kind. Why do you suppose that is? Are they different Gods, or are they different because of the people's perception? The OT people were rebellious, while the NT people believed in his miracles. If you rebel you will likely find God to be different and more distant than a person who tries to submit to His will, who prays, exibits faith, and loves Him.Someone said they thought God would be pro-choice rather than pro-life, because He gives us our choice, and hopes we choose right. You have your agency and are free to choose whatever God you want. BUT....the God whose world this is hopes you choose him. You are free to choose whatever you want, as long as you are happy with the consequenses of being eternally grouped with others like you.
I believe in the kind compassionate God, and I believe He will not leave anyone in the dark forever.
Posted by Michael83 on February 22, 2007, at 4:36:55
In reply to Re: little by little » Michael83, posted by rayww on February 22, 2007, at 0:06:41
>>>>>You are free to choose whatever you want
That is 100% incorrect, and is the basis for what I've been troubled with for years and what I'm been pounding on this forum for almost a year.
Do you understand that it's not a choice that I do not believe?
Do you understand the human mind and how it works?
We do not have complete freedom of will, that is undisputed and factual. I am not a professional in the subject, but I do know we are bound by the habits of our mind, which are simply chemicals and electric pulses in our brain.
Every thought, every action comes from how nature created our brain and how it communicates with itself. Chemicals, electronic pulses.
Do some people choose to be intelligent? Is intelligence a choice?
What about people on this forum? Many suffer from issues relating to chemical imbalances in the brain (that is essentially what most mental disorders are). Can they "choose" not to be depressed?
Why do you think they prescribe medication to correct these imbalances? Do you ever hear of a psychiatrist say, "Choose not to be depressed, it's a choice." Because it's not a choice!
IT'S NOT A CHOICE DO NOT BELIEVE JESUS.
It do not believe because it does not make sense to me and my brain, the way I was programmed to think, refuses to accept something based on "faith."
Do you understand that? Do you understand we're living organisms and we're at the mercy of our human biology? We're not mystical "spirits" who have some sort of perfect working connection with the world around us. We're living flesh and our thoughts are chemicals and pulses in our brain.
I'm sorry this message is harsh, but many religious people do not seem to understand that everything in life is not a choice.
I'm very interested in reading your response to this.
Posted by madeline on February 22, 2007, at 6:59:11
In reply to Re: little by little » rayww, posted by Michael83 on February 22, 2007, at 4:36:55
Simply because what you are struggling with Micheal is something that I have gone through as well.
What you say in your post is exactly right, we are strongly bound by our physical being.
You have no reason to believe this so you will just have to trust me, but I am a scientist in the medical sciences. I am completely inculcated in the scientific method and, pretty much follow an evidence based life.
We are programmed to do a lot of things by our chemistry, we are programmed to seek food, reproduce and seek shelter. We are hardwired to seek the companionship of fellow humans.
We are also programmed to love.
To me the desire to accept christ was a very natural extension of that program. It came out of love and not definitive physical evidence that he was the son of god or any of that.
To me, he was a real man and he made a real sacrifice for us. He taught us how to live peaceful lives and brought the hope (another program in my opinion) of something bigger than ourselves.
I still go to work everyday and do my research and try to understand all of the chemicals and pulses in our body, how they impact our lives, and how they can go horribly wrong.
And I accept the love that my brain tells me to feel.
Maddie
Posted by Michael83 on February 22, 2007, at 16:53:03
In reply to Re: little by little - okay I'm back » Michael83, posted by madeline on February 22, 2007, at 6:59:11
But someone like me, who cannot believe because of the way I think, am to be punished for this?
Clearly the Bible states non-believers are not included in the "eternal salvation" plan.
So I'm punished for something beyond my control. Is this a fair system?
Let me tell you what separates me from so many other people, religious or even non-religious people. When I think about a belief system or any sort of ideology about mankind, I don't just think "how does it effect me?" I think of all possible situations for all possible types of people to judge whether or not it's valid.
I think of the person born and raised in another culture. Is a Buddhist born and raised in China to blame for not accepting Jesus? Or the Hindu in India? Or the Muslim in Jordan? The impact of the idea of Jesus has much less effect on them because it's not the primary way of thinking.
Is a man whose mind it intensely logical and because of this cannot make the leap of faith to blame?
I could go on and go, listing hundreds and thousands of different kinds of people throughout the world and thinking "what is it like from their perspective?"
It's so easy for religious people to pound "it's a choice! it's a choice!" But the fact is it's not. Biological factors, psychological conditioning, cultural factors are all huge players in this and any system that expects everyone to believe in one certain thing is bound to have good people who deserve heaven fall through the cracks. And no perfect God would create an imperfect system.
If there is any shred of truth to Christianity, the only possible way could be through John Marks Templeton (one religious person I admire greatly for his humility in religious matters) ideas, where although he is a Christian and once was even a minister, he believes God reveals himself in many different forms to many different people throughout the world and throughout history. Anything else leads to an unjust system, in my opinion.
Posted by Declan on February 22, 2007, at 21:18:07
In reply to Re: little by little » Michael83, posted by rayww on February 22, 2007, at 0:06:41
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 23, 2007, at 11:44:38
In reply to Re: little by little » rayww, posted by Michael83 on February 22, 2007, at 4:36:55
> From in the post above, I ask if it is saying any of the following:
>
> E. Those that keep the law given by Moses do not know the truth?
>
> Lou PIlder> Your comment shows no respect for Michael or Madeline.
>
> rayww> many religious people do not seem to understand that everything in life is not a choice.
>
> Michael83Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Saying that others don't understand something could lead them to feel put down, and implying that someone might be saying that others don't know the truth could lead them to feel accused.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 23, 2007, at 11:45:04
In reply to Re: Please Rephrase - how about this? » AuntieMel, posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:37:15
> I personally believe the passage in the bible that states
> "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
>
> How's that?I think that's good, thanks.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 23, 2007, at 11:45:11
In reply to Re: little by little - okay I'm back » madeline, posted by Michael83 on February 22, 2007, at 16:53:03
> Anything else leads to an unjust system, in my opinion.
Sorry to interrupt, and if this is confusing, but the idea here is to be supportive of religious faith, so I'd like to redirect follow-ups that aren't back to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20070223/msgs/735360.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on February 26, 2007, at 13:42:05
In reply to Re: Please Rephrase - how about this? » AuntieMel, posted by madeline on February 20, 2007, at 18:37:15
I'm sorry. I have a lot of personal stuff going on right now and I missed your rephrase.
It looks good to me. Thank you for doing it so quickly.
Posted by AuntieMel on February 26, 2007, at 13:45:23
In reply to Re: Please Rephrase, posted by rayww on February 20, 2007, at 22:25:34
Long time, rayww.
No, actually I think this is a wonderful place to duscuss confusion about feelings.
It only crosses the line (my opinion) when a person sounds sure that he is right and others are wrong.
It's a tough balance, and hard to remember when emotions are involved.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 26, 2007, at 14:29:49
In reply to Re: Please Rephrase » rayww, posted by AuntieMel on February 26, 2007, at 13:45:23
> Long time, rayww.
>
> No, actually I think this is a wonderful place to duscuss confusion about feelings.
>
> It only crosses the line (my opinion) when a person sounds sure that he is right and others are wrong.
>
> It's a tough balance, and hard to remember when emotions are involved.AM,
In your discussion here with the other member, are your comments above being those of a member or a deputy?
If they are as a deputy, I am unsure if your comments are concerning the post that you asked for to be rephrased or not. If it is, I am unsure if you mean that a post that could have the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings, or the potential to lead a Jew to feel put down, could be {crossing the line} only when you determine that the author of the post {sounds sure} that they are right and the other is wrong.
In my understanding of the rules here, a statement here that has the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings {crosses the line}whether or not the author {sounds sure} that they are right and others are wrong.
I am unsure from what you wrote if from now on when you examine a post, that posts that have the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings will be allowed to stand if you make a determination that the author's {sounding of surity} is the question to you or if the statement itself has the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings or have the potential to lead a Jew to feel put down.
I am also unsure as to what was in regards in that post in question that constituted {confusion of feelings}. If it was about the statement in question that IMO has the potentia to arrouse antisemitic feelings and the potential to lead a Jew to feel put down, then what was the confusion about feelings in that post, if it was in regards to that post. If it was not in regards to that post, then could you idenetify what post it was in regards to? Sorry but could you clear up the confusion that I have here?
Lou
Posted by madeline on February 26, 2007, at 17:41:21
In reply to Lou's request to deputy AM » AuntieMel, posted by Lou Pilder on February 26, 2007, at 15:04:45
Lou,
I am so sorry that my post made you feel that way. I hope you can accept my apology and also hope that you know that it wasn't my intent at all.
I so wish that I could just undo the whole thing, but I can't.
Please know that I am sorry, and thank you for opening my eyes to your point of view.
Maddie
Posted by gardenergirl on February 26, 2007, at 17:46:18
In reply to Lou's request to AM for clarification-cnfusn » AuntieMel, posted by Lou Pilder on February 26, 2007, at 14:29:49
I've redirected your posts to the Admin board and joined with your previous posts about this thread and administrative actions. Here is a link: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070123/msgs/736526.html
namaste
gg
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 26, 2007, at 18:18:41
In reply to To Lou, posted by madeline on February 26, 2007, at 17:41:21
> Lou,
>
> I am so sorry that my post made you feel that way. I hope you can accept my apology and also hope that you know that it wasn't my intent at all.
>
> I so wish that I could just undo the whole thing, but I can't.
>
> Please know that I am sorry, and thank you for opening my eyes to your point of view.
>
> Maddiemadeline,
You wrote,[...accept my apology..I am sorry..thank you for...not my intent..I wish..whole thing..your point of view...].
I would also like for you to know that my requests to you were for you to be able to have the opportunity to rule out those possibilities because your post could have many interpretations so I wanted to let others know that you may not hold to some of those possible interpretations.
My thinking is not the same as Dr. Hsiung's thinking in respect to this issue here, so it was not my intention to accuse you, for I asked you to rule out the issues that could have been fostered if the post was left unaddressed by me.
I think that your post to me here does rule those interpretations out, for you wrote that it was not your intent at all.
I think that we can undo the whole thing, for a long time ago I heard a Rider on a White Horse say to me through the ether what still reverberates in my mind to this day. He said in the past to me that I still believe today. He said to me, "The discretion of a man makes him slow to anger, And his glory is to overlook a what another would think they are sorry for."
Lou
Posted by rayww on February 26, 2007, at 22:46:53
In reply to Re: Please Rephrase » rayww, posted by AuntieMel on February 26, 2007, at 13:45:23
> Long time, rayww.
>
> No, actually I think this is a wonderful place to duscuss confusion about feelings.
>
> It only crosses the line (my opinion) when a person sounds sure that he is right and others are wrong.
>
> It's a tough balance, and hard to remember when emotions are involved.
Ahhh, thats what I'm doing wrong (or is it right?) It's hard to be humble when.....I'll try to pay more attention. When I write I let the words come out as they flow in the moment. That doesn't often work here.
Ya, long time. Auntie Mel, why you hangin at Faith?
This is the end of the thread.
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