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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Chris O on January 31, 2005, at 19:52:36
I have been trying to connect/reconnect with God for the past year. I feel like connecting with God is key to healing my OCD/GAD and depression. I have been using the Bible/Christianity as a means to doing this, making the connection. It is hard for me to approach God thru Christianity, as I have so much fear/anxiety /feelings of unworthiness inside of me already, and I find some of the passages and teachings in the Bible to be very harsh and frightening. In addition, I struggle greatly with the way Christianity was framed for me through my family, in a very fear-based, shame-based way.
Nevertheless, I have faith, I think, somewhere inside of me, that approaching God thru Christ is the way to salvation, and I am just... trying to connect to the living, the real God. Anyway, I have a couple of issues plaguing me: First, I...no matter what I, how I cognitively approach God through the Bible, I feel inadequate. A lot of times, when I read the Bible, it moves me toward a place of panic. This is especially true when I read something prescriptive, say, from the New Testament, that I am not supposed to feel/think, I find myself trying to scare myself by feeling/thinking it. For example, when I read in Mathew last summer that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was an unforgivable sin, I found myself thinking blasphamous thoughts and I drove myself into psychotic like panic and into the ER--I didn't want to do this, or at least I don't think I wanted to do this, but it just seems like my brain, well, if it encounters something scary, it will dwell there, in an effort to scare me to a panic. It's like, "Oh, you can't do/say/feel that, eh? So, I'm going to do/say/feel it to make you have a panic attack." It's mostly thoughts I struggle with in this area, not actions or words.
Another issue I struggle with is: Lately, over the past year, or before I had my ER psychosis/ panic attack last summer, I think I was becoming addicted to pornography. I don't know if I met some clinical definition of being addicted to pornography, but, at any rate, I felt really guilty about it, and I felt like, what I was doing was "wrong" and "unhealthy" even from a humanistic or secular standpoint. However, when I approach pornography through the veil of Christianity, I feel very very guilty. I'm writing this because I just had an "event", where I looked at pornography, I "gave in" to my urgers. I guess I just worry: Can God forgive me for looking at pornography? I know this probably sounds silly to some people here...but.... And then...I get confused...because I know I have so much guilt inside from my mother in relationship to my sexual feelings...I was just so repressed as a teenager (I'm 37 now), and, I don't want to use this as an excuse, but I sometimes feel that my looking at pornography is very much related to that. I can't say that porn makes me feel good; it often makes me feel horrible, but it's like a distraction. It's like a drug.
Anyway, I have been praying a lot over the past year, trying to talk to God. Sometimes I feel a sense of peace, but most of the time I just feel guilty, or like God is angry at me. I am seeing a Christian therapist, and she tells me that my feelings seem more related to GAD/OCD than anything else, so that is of much comfort to me. I just hope God realizes that I am trying, that I love Him, that I want to be with Him, and that I wish my mental illness, or the ease with which I sin, could be taken away, and that I could do His will on this Earth, whatever He wants me to do.
Anyway, thanks for listening.Chris
Posted by rayww on January 31, 2005, at 22:30:25
In reply to Struggling to feel worthy of God's love, posted by Chris O on January 31, 2005, at 19:52:36
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=d%26c+10%3A67&search.x=24&search.y=7
Your struggle will pay off, so I hope you won't give up. The swing is extreme, like a huge bungie cord stretching to its limit one direction, and bouncing back the other way. On one end might be extreme spirituality, and on the other pornography and other evils. To obtain balance we need to somehow figure out how to stop at the middle, which is the only place where you can get your feet on the ground, and have any control. If you can picture a scale that follows this trail, and label it from one extreme to the other, you will paint a clear picture of what you need to do to achieve balance. Once you achieve balance you will be prepared to take a step forward. The journey with God is based upon one step at a time, with balance in between. It may not be quick, but it will be at your own specially designed individual pace. Have faith in the journey, but know for certain that the first thing Jesus would have you do is repent, and the next and the next. Not all Christian religions are fear or shame based. There is nothing fearful or shameful about repentance. It is something you do for God and yourself because of your love for both.
Posted by Chris O on February 1, 2005, at 0:39:04
In reply to Re: Struggling to feel worthy of God's love, posted by rayww on January 31, 2005, at 22:30:25
Thanks, Ray. Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm giving it my best, not giving up, just unable to bear the panic, the anxiety I feel sometimes. It helps when I feel that God loves me...I just have a hard time feeling that, feeling loved, loving myself...I have much shame inside of me, much fear. I feel like I have made progress, taken steps forward, in my spiritual growth over the last 6 months. I will continue to pray and to seek God.
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2005, at 15:50:31
In reply to Thanks, Ray » rayww, posted by Chris O on February 1, 2005, at 0:39:04
> Thanks, Ray. Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm giving it my best, not giving up, just unable to bear the panic, the anxiety I feel sometimes. It helps when I feel that God loves me...I just have a hard time feeling that, feeling loved, loving myself...I have much shame inside of me, much fear. I feel like I have made progress, taken steps forward, in my spiritual growth over the last 6 months. I will continue to pray and to seek God.
Just my own perspective:
I can't speak for any Christian teachings, but it is my faith that one does not have to seek God. He is all around us - always. All you need do is to enable yourself to feel him. I believe that he forgives you all of your hurtful acts in life, whether you ask for it or not. However, I feel much more full of His spirit when I interact with Him on a personal level and ask for forgiveness and resolve to change my life in ways that bring me closer to Him. He rewards me with a more fulfilling life. I can generally feel the difference between His right and wrong. I think it tends to be at our core as human beings to be able to tell the difference.
I don't pray in words for God's graces to surround me. I pray in feelings. It helps to be in a quiet, private place where you can relieve yourself of worrisome distractions. Let it just be you and God in the moment. Ask questions. Feel answers. Alternatively, don't ask questions and be still. Feel. Feel God's Love and warmth surround you. It is unconditional. He is the parent. You are the child. Let Him teach you in His gentle way, and know that he smiles when you do not understand. It is a learning process. It is a feeling process. Between you and God there is no shame. There is only Truth. Do not fear God for shame or shameful acts. He understands these acts better than you do, and forgives you for them. You will learn, as long as you can cultivate a personal and honest relationship with an all loving God.
Be well.
- Scott
Posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2005, at 17:00:26
In reply to Re: Thanks, Ray, posted by SLS on February 6, 2005, at 15:50:31
Wow, Scott.
I am so moved by your post. What you describe is very similar to my own relationship with God.
Thank you for articulating it the way you did.
gg
Posted by rayww on February 6, 2005, at 22:49:55
In reply to Re: Thanks, Ray, posted by SLS on February 6, 2005, at 15:50:31
Scott, that is a beautiful way to approach God. However, I see nothing wrong with asking God for specifics. How many scriptures are you aware of that say, "ask and you will receive"? I agree with you, when you say it can be done with feelings and impressions, but it can also be done with words and actions. We most often get what we step toward. There is no way that all people can get what they ask for, because of so many conflicting causes, so there must be some other kind of qualifier. I beleive the correct way to ask is explained in some of these verses:
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=3+Ne+18%3A20&search.x=31&search.y=10It is a faith growing experience to meditate until one discovers what it is God would like us to pray for. I have had many experiences where these specific prayers were answered beautifully. It can be a daily occurance.
Posted by Chris O on February 6, 2005, at 23:36:47
In reply to Re: Thanks, Ray, posted by SLS on February 6, 2005, at 15:50:31
Scott:
Your words are encouraging and bring peace to me. Thanks you. Hopefully, I can someday break through this Critical Parent part of me and have a similar relationship with God. I will continue to try and do my best.
Thanks,
ChrisThanks, Ray. Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm giving it my best, not giving up, just unable to bear the panic, the anxiety I feel sometimes. It helps when I feel that God loves me...I just have a hard time feeling that, feeling loved, loving myself...I have much shame inside of me, much fear. I feel like I have made progress, taken steps forward, in my spiritual growth over the last 6 months. I will continue to pray and to seek God.
>
> Just my own perspective:
>
> I can't speak for any Christian teachings, but it is my faith that one does not have to seek God. He is all around us - always. All you need do is to enable yourself to feel him. I believe that he forgives you all of your hurtful acts in life, whether you ask for it or not. However, I feel much more full of His spirit when I interact with Him on a personal level and ask for forgiveness and resolve to change my life in ways that bring me closer to Him. He rewards me with a more fulfilling life. I can generally feel the difference between His right and wrong. I think it tends to be at our core as human beings to be able to tell the difference.
>
> I don't pray in words for God's graces to surround me. I pray in feelings. It helps to be in a quiet, private place where you can relieve yourself of worrisome distractions. Let it just be you and God in the moment. Ask questions. Feel answers. Alternatively, don't ask questions and be still. Feel. Feel God's Love and warmth surround you. It is unconditional. He is the parent. You are the child. Let Him teach you in His gentle way, and know that he smiles when you do not understand. It is a learning process. It is a feeling process. Between you and God there is no shame. There is only Truth. Do not fear God for shame or shameful acts. He understands these acts better than you do, and forgives you for them. You will learn, as long as you can cultivate a personal and honest relationship with an all loving God.
>
> Be well.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
Posted by SLS on February 7, 2005, at 8:00:22
In reply to asking for stuff » SLS, posted by rayww on February 6, 2005, at 22:49:55
> Scott, that is a beautiful way to approach God. However, I see nothing wrong with asking God for specifics.
I have a difficult time praying for myself. I find it easier to pray for others. Sometimes I feel that it is unnecessary to pray for those things that God already knows I need and want, and that I have already prayed for. I sometimes wink at Him because it is understood between us what are those things that I need and want. It's part of our relationship. He guarantees me nothing except uncertainty. Uncertainty can be a powerful motivator of hope. About the only thing I seem to be guaranteed is the experience of peace and fulfillment that comes when I feel closer to God.
> How many scriptures are you aware of that say, "ask and you will receive"?
I guess I should ask for what I need more often. It might make a difference in the way I feel. The only thing I want right now is the disappearance of the profoundly ill state I suffer. I think God has already blessed me with the resources to take advantage of once I get well (or at least significantly better).
Thanks.
I just prayed for myself. It felt good.
> I agree with you, when you say it can be done with feelings and impressions, but it can also be done with words and actions.
Undoubtedly, there are many ways by which one may commune with God (or one's higher power). That which works for one person might not work for another. You are very fortunate to have found your way.
> We most often get what we step toward.
I should start running, then. It's been 23 years that I have been pursuing the same goal through prayer and deeds. I hope the resolution of my depression would not conflict so much with the welfare of others that I should be denied my health for all of my days. Sometimes, I look to the past for answers and ask myself and of God if there is something I did that was so horrendous that I shall have earned an unending punishment of mental pain and limitation. This is a very rare thing for me to do, though. My belief system usually doesn't leave room for this kind of reaction. I still look at my past to learn from. This most definitely includes those deeds I committed that hurt others unjustly and maliciously. I do ask for forgiveness and try to repent in a way consistent with what I feel I have already learned about God and His Universe.
> There is no way that all people can get what they ask for, because of so many conflicting causes, so there must be some other kind of qualifier.
As of the proper diagnosis of my illness and my understanding of its biological etiology, I have felt that to pray for anything other than my healing would be to ask for things that are too trivial. I guess I don't like to bother God with my selfishness such that I start asking for things like money and sports cars and pretty women and nice houses and a better singing voice... I would rather that He take care of the tsunami victims first. He has really blessed me with all the gifts I feel I need to get along in life except for the one thing that prevents me from using these gifts.
> I beleive the correct way to ask is explained in some of these verses:
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=3+Ne+18%3A20&search.x=31&search.y=10
I read this. I am no longer a patron of its tenets. I have been asking for my healing for too long and have had too many of my years ripped away from me while asking, that I have become convinced that things are not as are contained in those words. The way that I think things are, however, are more beautiful to me, and allow for me to love God unconditionally - despite the horrors that I have lived and are likely to continue living. Even if I die this way, I would not have bitterness. I have already made my peace with the way things in God's Universe operate such that my passing through it is as it was meant to be.
> It is a faith growing experience to meditate until one discovers what it is God would like us to pray for.
Hmmm. I really like this.
Thanks for offering your faith and perspective.
- Scott
Posted by rayww on February 7, 2005, at 18:38:48
In reply to Re: asking for stuff » rayww, posted by SLS on February 7, 2005, at 8:00:22
I'm a little stressed today, so I hope what I write will make some sense to you. My only intent is to encourage and do what I can for others.
Thank-you for sharing your thoughts. As I was reading your words:
"I would rather that He take care of the tsunami victims first. He has really blessed me with all the gifts I feel I need to get along in life except for the one thing that prevents me from using these gifts", the thought that came to mind was how blessed you are and will be because of your attitude. Have you heard the quote, "As a man thinketh so is he"? Do you believe God will judge our heart, our thoughts, our intents, and all the things we wish we could do if we were able? Whatever life we have is our gift from God. Those with severe mental disorders will not be held accountable for things they did not do. A body is a very sacred gift. Satan's evil spirits wanted one so bad they were willing to possess the body of swine. People of my faith believe these spirits will never receive the joy of gaining a physical body because they chose to follow Satan rather than the Messiah in the pre-earth life. The point I am clumbsily trying to make here is that no matter the condition of our body, it will fulfill it's eternal purpose. Eternity is a very long time, and by comparison, the time we spend here is millisecond. Surely we can endure as that eternal second passes.You have been blessed with a good attitude and a wonderful belief. Your prayers will be answered, but likely not how or when you expect. It takes faith to accept that God's plan is not always our plan.
When you try to figure out what God would want you to pray for, are you certain it is for your health? Have you heard of or tried http://truehope.com/ I don't know what you struggle with, but this nutritional supplement has certainly helped a lot of different types of mental disorders.
Posted by SLS on February 8, 2005, at 14:13:52
In reply to Re: asking for stuff, posted by rayww on February 7, 2005, at 18:38:48
Thank you for the concern you have shown for me and the great advice.
> the thought that came to mind was how blessed you are and will be because of your attitude.
Thank you. It isn't always recognized by the people around me.
> Have you heard the quote, "As a man thinketh so is he"?
Hmm. No, I hadn't. I like that.
> Do you believe God will judge our heart, our thoughts, our intents, and all the things we wish we could do if we were able?
That is a difficult question for me to answer. I think there are rewards for doing right. I am not so sure there are penalties for doing wrong, though. I think there are rewards in this fashion:
1. The experience of bliss that comes from the understanding of what God wants from us, and the drawing closer to God our Father for the love we demonstrate for Him and for others.
2. The experience of fulfillment in the absence of a personal relationship with God because such things resonate so positively with our core humanity.
> The point I am clumbsily trying to make here is that no matter the condition of our body, it will fulfill it's eternal purpose. Eternity is a very long time, and by comparison, the time we spend here is millisecond. Surely we can endure as that eternal second passes.
This is one point where you and I diverge a bit. I have no confidence in there being of a hereafter. In fact, it goes against my worldly belief system. I believe that our consciousness is a one time event. I believe that our bodies continue on as they are recycled in the environment and become part of the living again.
The MAJOR reason I have not committed suicide despite entering several genuinely suicidal state is precisely because I don't believe in a hereafter. I consider this a one time deal. There is nowhere to go afterwards. For me, death represents the end and not the beginning.
> You have been blessed with a good attitude and a wonderful belief. Your prayers will be answered, but likely not how or when you expect.
> It takes faith to accept that God's plan is not always our plan.
I will try to be accepting of whatever God has decided. So far, I have not been willing to accept the notion that I will never emerge from depression. I still have hope, although I don't completely understand why.
Just as an epilogue, I tend to live well with uncertainty. It is what helps keep me going. Of course, this uncertainty also exists for my lack of belief in a hereafter. However, it would represent defective logic to deduce that there is no hereafter. Uncertainty does not permit it. If there is a hereafter, I will be pleasantly surprised.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by temoigneur on March 5, 2005, at 3:13:31
In reply to Struggling to feel worthy of God's love, posted by Chris O on January 31, 2005, at 19:52:36
> I have been trying to connect/reconnect with God for the past year. I feel like connecting with God is key to healing my OCD/GAD and depression. I have been using the Bible/Christianity as a means to doing this, making the connection. It is hard for me to approach God thru Christianity, as I have so much fear/anxiety /feelings of unworthiness inside of me already, and I find some of the passages and teachings in the Bible to be very harsh and frightening. In addition, I struggle greatly with the way Christianity was framed for me through my family, in a very fear-based, shame-based way.
>
> Nevertheless, I have faith, I think, somewhere inside of me, that approaching God thru Christ is the way to salvation, and I am just... trying to connect to the living, the real God. Anyway, I have a couple of issues plaguing me: First, I...no matter what I, how I cognitively approach God through the Bible, I feel inadequate. A lot of times, when I read the Bible, it moves me toward a place of panic. This is especially true when I read something prescriptive, say, from the New Testament, that I am not supposed to feel/think, I find myself trying to scare myself by feeling/thinking it. For example, when I read in Mathew last summer that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was an unforgivable sin, I found myself thinking blasphamous thoughts and I drove myself into psychotic like panic and into the ER--I didn't want to do this, or at least I don't think I wanted to do this, but it just seems like my brain, well, if it encounters something scary, it will dwell there, in an effort to scare me to a panic. It's like, "Oh, you can't do/say/feel that, eh? So, I'm going to do/say/feel it to make you have a panic attack." It's mostly thoughts I struggle with in this area, not actions or words.
>
> Another issue I struggle with is: Lately, over the past year, or before I had my ER psychosis/ panic attack last summer, I think I was becoming addicted to pornography. I don't know if I met some clinical definition of being addicted to pornography, but, at any rate, I felt really guilty about it, and I felt like, what I was doing was "wrong" and "unhealthy" even from a humanistic or secular standpoint. However, when I approach pornography through the veil of Christianity, I feel very very guilty. I'm writing this because I just had an "event", where I looked at pornography, I "gave in" to my urgers. I guess I just worry: Can God forgive me for looking at pornography? I know this probably sounds silly to some people here...but.... And then...I get confused...because I know I have so much guilt inside from my mother in relationship to my sexual feelings...I was just so repressed as a teenager (I'm 37 now), and, I don't want to use this as an excuse, but I sometimes feel that my looking at pornography is very much related to that. I can't say that porn makes me feel good; it often makes me feel horrible, but it's like a distraction. It's like a drug.
>
> Anyway, I have been praying a lot over the past year, trying to talk to God. Sometimes I feel a sense of peace, but most of the time I just feel guilty, or like God is angry at me. I am seeing a Christian therapist, and she tells me that my feelings seem more related to GAD/OCD than anything else, so that is of much comfort to me. I just hope God realizes that I am trying, that I love Him, that I want to be with Him, and that I wish my mental illness, or the ease with which I sin, could be taken away, and that I could do His will on this Earth, whatever He wants me to do.
>
> Anyway, thanks for listening.
>
> Chris
Hi, Thank you for taking the time to share your experience, it's so nice to know I'm not alone. I have severe OCD/GAD/PD, and I used to almost live in torment over the 'm' word issue. Every week in church there was an altar call to go up to the front, and confess your sins. I felt so strongly convicted that I should go, but never did until I was on heavy medication, I thought that I was demon possessed, and I'd go into a spastic rage if I got out of my seat to go confess my 'sin' at the altar. I would leave week after week with such crippling guilt. I was hospitalized years later, this past Nov.. While in the hospital a good christian friend came up to me and talked candidly about sex, and shared his struggles, and that of friend's. i wanted to leave you with a website - I don't know if you know James Dobson, but he said that he didn't think God would give males this powerful urge than damn them for acting on it; he's not advocating pornography, he's just saying most males do need some form of physical release, I wish I had this site when I was a teenager..http://members.optusnet.com.au/~austbua/index.htm
I struggled so badly to feel acceptable, and worthy of anything good, it was aweful, th only thing that has helped has been a sedating medication, - clomipramine, but there was a book I read by a renown theologan from a respected school, his name is Lewis Smedes, the book was called "Shame and Grace, healing the shame we don't deserve" I would give it 4 1/2 stars, one thing he says is one common myth that ruins so many lives is that "you have to earn joy before you can receive it" he says, "If you have to wait till you earn it, you'll never get it" Sounds so irresponsible some ways, and unfair, why do some people feel this joy, while we scrape as the shrill sound of fingernails on a chalkboard, to feel worthy to stay alive. This man is really empathetic, and wrote so much I can relate to - the different kind of people susceptible to shame, - how some of the worlds 'hero's' we're driven by feelings of unworthiness - Winston Churchill, etc.If you can get that book, it's wonderful. Al the best,
Ben
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2005, at 11:27:36
In reply to Re: Struggling to feel worthy of God's love, posted by temoigneur on March 5, 2005, at 3:13:31
> there was a book I read by a renown theologan from a respected school, his name is Lewis Smedes, the book was called "Shame and Grace, healing the shame we don't deserve" I would give it 4 1/2 stars...
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Buckeye Fan on March 5, 2005, at 12:35:10
In reply to Re: Struggling to feel worthy of God's love, posted by temoigneur on March 5, 2005, at 3:13:31
To Chris O,
If we had to rely on our feelings or our inherent worth....to be loved by God, we would ALL be in trouble! lolFeelings come and go, change, and so forth.
But the one place I have found consistancy is Gods Word the Bible.
Perhaps you remember the words to an old childrens song we learned in churchJesus loves me this I know...for the Bible tells me so...little ones to him belong..we are WEAK bit He is STRONG ...yes Jesus loves me...etc...
There is alot of truth in that little tune.
We KNOW God loves us because His Word tells us
over and over that His does.
And worth? We were worth enough for Him to Create us.....give us life...and surround us with this beautiful planet to live on.
On top of that He His Only Son Jesus so that we could live with Him forever.
You are VERY WORTHY to God.Mt 10:31
Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.Lu 12:6
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?Lu 12:7
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Buckey Fan
Posted by Chris O on March 5, 2005, at 16:10:27
In reply to Re: Struggling to feel worthy of God's love, posted by temoigneur on March 5, 2005, at 3:13:31
Ben:
I really appreciate your kind words. I'll check out the website and the book (it's at the library where I live, I just looked). I can totally relate to some of the things you say. I know who Dr. Dobson is...surprised to hear him say this, in a way, I always picture him as more conservative, but...I don't really know much about him. But yeah, "struggle to feel worthy of anything," that basically describes me in a variety of ways. If it's not worrying about one thing, it's the other...for me I've discovered a pattern of: 1) health issues 2) spiritually damning issues 3) economic issues--like being homeless. All three security issues. I just never felt secure growing up. My mom was, to say the least, not a very secure person...and I know most of it goes back to this...but now it's programmed into me and no matter what I do...it just does not really go away.
Anyway, thanks again for your words of support and I'll definitely be going to the library to get the book.
Much love,
Chris
Posted by Chris O on March 5, 2005, at 16:13:43
In reply to Re: Struggling to feel worthy of God's love, posted by Buckeye Fan on March 5, 2005, at 12:35:10
Buckey Fan:
Thanks for the loving scriptures. I tend to go through the Bible searching for the ones that damn me. That's just part of my...the nature of my disease, I suppose. I'm still struggling with "the Word," I've just, I'm a "new Christian," I guess, I'm not even comfortable calling myself that because I don't know exactly what it means...even though I try to pray, have been trying to pray to Jesus for guidance and mercy, but...I still feel really bad. I'm struggling, basically. Anyway, I'll keep trying...and I do appreciate the kind words.
Thanks,
Chris
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