![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Flipsactown on April 14, 2004, at 11:43:05
Hello Good People!
I am a Christian man and have a serious question about God giving us free will. If God did not give us free will, we would all be still in Heaven with God which is a good thing. I know God gave us free will out of Love and that the only way we could understand and experience God's Love for us is to exercise our free will by choosing right (with God) or wrong (without God). Also, God knows all and God knew when God created us that we human beings are not perfect. But God is all Good and Perfect, so how can God create something not perfect? I better stop as I am getting more confused by the second. Someone please help enlighten me. God Bless everyone.
FST
Posted by Jai Narayan on April 14, 2004, at 19:19:39
In reply to Free Will, posted by Flipsactown on April 14, 2004, at 11:43:05
There's one theory that God is not done evolving as well.
I hope that helps.
Posted by simus on April 14, 2004, at 23:02:20
In reply to Free Will, posted by Flipsactown on April 14, 2004, at 11:43:05
> But God is all Good and Perfect, so how can God create something not perfect?
Hi-
I posed this a month ago here, and I thought it may give you something to ponder. I appologize I do not know who wrote this, so I can't give credit to the person.DID GOD CREATE EVIL?
Did God create evil? This will make you think for a while.
At a certain college there was a professor with a reputation for being tough on Christians. At the first class, every semester, he asked if anyone was a Christian and proceeded to degrade them and to mock their statement of faith. One semester, he asked the question and a young man raised his hand.
The professor asked, "Did God make everything, young man?"
He replied "Yes sir, He did!"
The professor responded, "If God made everything, then He made evil."
The student didn't have a response and the professor was happy to once again proved the Christian faith to be a myth.
Then another man raised his hand and asked, "May I ask you something, sir?"
"Yes, you may," responded the professor.
The young man stood up and said, "Sir, is there such a thing as cold?"
"Of course there is, what kind of a question is that? Haven't you ever been cold?"
The young man replied, "Actually, sir, cold doesn't exist. What we consider to be cold, is really an absence of heat. Absolute zero is when there is absolutely no heat, but cold does not really exist. We have only created that term to describe how we feel when heat is not there."
The young man continued, "Sir, is there such a thing as dark?"
Once again the professor responded, "Of course there is."
And once again, the student replied, "Actually, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is really only the absence of light. Darkness is only a term developed to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally, the young man asked, "Sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
The professor responded, "Of course, we have rapes, murders and violence everywhere in the world. Those thing are evil."
The student replied, "Actually, sir, evil does not exist. Evil is simply the absence of God.
Evil is a term developed to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. It isn't like truth, or love which exist as virtues like heat or light. Evil is simply the state where God is not present, like cold without heat, or darkness without light."The professor had nothing to say...
Posted by Flipsactown on April 15, 2004, at 8:15:31
In reply to Re: Free Will » Flipsactown, posted by simus on April 14, 2004, at 23:02:20
That was the exact post that got me to thinking about free will. God is all Good and Perfect. So since we are created by an all Good and Perfect God that means God created us perfectly. Out of God's Love, God gave us free will. Now this is where I am confused. Since God is all Good and Perfect and we are created in God's image, then when God gave us free will to know good from bad, we would always choose good because we were created in God's image to be all Good. As I am wanting to continue to strengthen my faith in God, can someone please explain this to me.
God Bless,
FST
> > But God is all Good and Perfect, so how can God create something not perfect?
>
> Hi-
> I posed this a month ago here, and I thought it may give you something to ponder. I appologize I do not know who wrote this, so I can't give credit to the person.
>
> DID GOD CREATE EVIL?
>
> Did God create evil? This will make you think for a while.
>
> At a certain college there was a professor with a reputation for being tough on Christians. At the first class, every semester, he asked if anyone was a Christian and proceeded to degrade them and to mock their statement of faith. One semester, he asked the question and a young man raised his hand.
>
> The professor asked, "Did God make everything, young man?"
>
> He replied "Yes sir, He did!"
>
> The professor responded, "If God made everything, then He made evil."
>
> The student didn't have a response and the professor was happy to once again proved the Christian faith to be a myth.
>
> Then another man raised his hand and asked, "May I ask you something, sir?"
>
> "Yes, you may," responded the professor.
>
> The young man stood up and said, "Sir, is there such a thing as cold?"
>
> "Of course there is, what kind of a question is that? Haven't you ever been cold?"
>
> The young man replied, "Actually, sir, cold doesn't exist. What we consider to be cold, is really an absence of heat. Absolute zero is when there is absolutely no heat, but cold does not really exist. We have only created that term to describe how we feel when heat is not there."
>
> The young man continued, "Sir, is there such a thing as dark?"
>
> Once again the professor responded, "Of course there is."
>
> And once again, the student replied, "Actually, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is really only the absence of light. Darkness is only a term developed to describe what happens when there is no light present."
>
> Finally, the young man asked, "Sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
>
> The professor responded, "Of course, we have rapes, murders and violence everywhere in the world. Those thing are evil."
>
> The student replied, "Actually, sir, evil does not exist. Evil is simply the absence of God.
> Evil is a term developed to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. It isn't like truth, or love which exist as virtues like heat or light. Evil is simply the state where God is not present, like cold without heat, or darkness without light."
>
> The professor had nothing to say...
>
>
Posted by rayww on April 15, 2004, at 10:26:17
In reply to Re: Free Will » simus, posted by Flipsactown on April 15, 2004, at 8:15:31
I don't recal ever reading the words, "free will" in the Bible.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22free+will%22&search.x=31&search.y=10
I couldn't find a single reference to anything being "free". There is a price to pay for freedom. It takes effort. http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=free+to+choose&search.x=15&search.y=10The only free gift that I am aware of is salvation, but even then it isn't the same for everyone. As absense of light is darkenss, so is the resurrection of the dead. Head for the light and do what is right. Look to Christ and live.
Free will is the same as agency, and that is similar to trust. If we are created in God's image, we are capable of not betraying his trust in us. Betrayal, rebellion, persecuting the followers of Christ is like kicking against the thorns.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=kick+against+the+pricks&search.x=20&search.y=8And the time will come, but is not yet when all those who do not follow the "ensign" will be cut off from God's presence (spirit)
http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/11/1-16#10God's will takes the whole free will thing very seriously. Soon all that refuse to follow him will be cut off from his presence (spirit), and then all organizations of this world which are void of the support of God will fall. I have my personal church belief of what the ensign mentioned by Isaiah, Joel, and Paul is referring to, but I'd be interested in knowing how other religions interpret this serious matter.
http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1/40#40
Isaiah 11, Acts 3:22-23, and Joel 2:28 to the end.Those who fight our wars for freedom may make the connection that the fight for their own soul is much the same. We must overcome the forces of evil that are inside and all around us in order to capture and obtain free will.
There is nothing that destroys free will as fast as an addiction to something and that list is endless. But "Endless" is also the name of God--endless goodness, blessings, gifts that are so glorious we cannot even imagine them.
http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/64/4#4
http://scriptures.lds.org/1_cor/2/9#9If you want to understand free will begin with sincere prayer, and then really listen to everything around you, and you will find the answer, (to all things). Don't do as some believers do and close your mind to anything outside of the verse-and-word-in-context in the Bible. Open your mind to communication with God and I guarantee he will speak to you. One way he speaks to me is through the scriptures. A phrase here or there read out of context can give a personal meaning to a private question. If you notice, God has slipped in a lot of those "out of context" verses in the middle of a dialogue, that are placed there just for those who are searching for answers. I wish everyone could understand this. Jude 1:6 http://scriptures.lds.org/jude/1/6#6
I slip some of those in too sometimes when a phrase pops into my head as I'm writing. (as is the resurrection of the dead)You have brought up a very interesting topic, and one that we should all study and pray about. Man, I wish I could be an ensign to someone. Yes, that's what I want to be when I grow up. An ensign. Someone who helps others find and discover Jesus Christ. Now I'm rambling.
> That was the exact post that got me to thinking about free will. God is all Good and Perfect. So since we are created by an all Good and Perfect God that means God created us perfectly. Out of God's Love, God gave us free will. Now this is where I am confused. Since God is all Good and Perfect and we are created in God's image, then when God gave us free will to know good from bad, we would always choose good because we were created in God's image to be all Good. As I am wanting to continue to strengthen my faith in God, can someone please explain this to me.
>
> God Bless,
> FST
>
>
> > > But God is all Good and Perfect, so how can God create something not perfect?
> >
> > Hi-
> > I posed this a month ago here, and I thought it may give you something to ponder. I appologize I do not know who wrote this, so I can't give credit to the person.
> >
> > DID GOD CREATE EVIL?
> >
> > Did God create evil? This will make you think for a while.
> >
> > At a certain college there was a professor with a reputation for being tough on Christians. At the first class, every semester, he asked if anyone was a Christian and proceeded to degrade them and to mock their statement of faith. One semester, he asked the question and a young man raised his hand.
> >
> > The professor asked, "Did God make everything, young man?"
> >
> > He replied "Yes sir, He did!"
> >
> > The professor responded, "If God made everything, then He made evil."
> >
> > The student didn't have a response and the professor was happy to once again proved the Christian faith to be a myth.
> >
> > Then another man raised his hand and asked, "May I ask you something, sir?"
> >
> > "Yes, you may," responded the professor.
> >
> > The young man stood up and said, "Sir, is there such a thing as cold?"
> >
> > "Of course there is, what kind of a question is that? Haven't you ever been cold?"
> >
> > The young man replied, "Actually, sir, cold doesn't exist. What we consider to be cold, is really an absence of heat. Absolute zero is when there is absolutely no heat, but cold does not really exist. We have only created that term to describe how we feel when heat is not there."
> >
> > The young man continued, "Sir, is there such a thing as dark?"
> >
> > Once again the professor responded, "Of course there is."
> >
> > And once again, the student replied, "Actually, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is really only the absence of light. Darkness is only a term developed to describe what happens when there is no light present."
> >
> > Finally, the young man asked, "Sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
> >
> > The professor responded, "Of course, we have rapes, murders and violence everywhere in the world. Those thing are evil."
> >
> > The student replied, "Actually, sir, evil does not exist. Evil is simply the absence of God.
> > Evil is a term developed to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. It isn't like truth, or love which exist as virtues like heat or light. Evil is simply the state where God is not present, like cold without heat, or darkness without light."
> >
> > The professor had nothing to say...
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by simus on April 17, 2004, at 1:36:13
In reply to Re: Free Will, posted by rayww on April 15, 2004, at 10:26:17
> A phrase here or there read out of context can give a personal meaning to a private question. If you notice, God has slipped in a lot of those "out of context" verses in the middle of a dialogue, that are placed there just for those who are searching for answers. I wish everyone could understand this. Jude 1:6 I slip some of those in too sometimes when a phrase pops into my head as I'm writing. (as is the resurrection of the dead)
Maybe it is the hour, but I am trying really hard to understand what you are saying here and I just don't follow you. Where has God slipped in anything "out of context"? After all of my Bible studying, I sincerely can't come up with one thing that God "slipped in" that didn't pertain to the context of the Word. Could you give me an example(s)of one? I know that Jesus at times seemed to say things that weren't clear to those who were hearing. Is that what you mean? If I remember correctly, you are a Mormon, right? I don't know what other books Mormons study, but are you possibly referring to a book other than the Bible? I really am not trying to be confrontational. I am honestly just trying to understand what you are saying. And could you explain your reference to Jude 6?
> You have brought up a very interesting topic, and one that we should all study and pray about. Man, I wish I could be an ensign to someone. Yes, that's what I want to be when I grow up. An ensign. Someone who helps others find and discover Jesus Christ.
The term "ensign" in reference to Christian life is new to me. Is "ensign" your religion's term for a mentor?
Posted by simus on April 17, 2004, at 3:27:07
In reply to Re: Free Will » simus, posted by Flipsactown on April 15, 2004, at 8:15:31
Hi, and sorry to have taken so long to respond.
> Now this is where I am confused. Since God is all Good and Perfect and we are created in God's image, then when God gave us free will to know good from bad, we would always choose good because we were created in God's image to be all Good. As I am wanting to continue to strengthen my faith in God, can someone please explain this to me.
First of all, I have to apologize for trying to answer your question without the Word of God. That was very shallow on my part. I love your openness and honesty, and your eagerness to understand God and to increase your faith in Him. I pray that something I say here turns on the "lightbulb".
You are right. We were created in God's image. Genesis 1:27 This just means that we have a spirit, a soul, and a body. Part of our soul is our will. God has a will, and He gave man a will also. Throughout history, God has never imposed His will on man without man's permission. We are by no means clones of God. Isaiah 55:8-9 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."
God is good, and there is no evil in Him. But He does know of evil and death. So out of His goodness, He tried to protect man from ever knowing evil. Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Then there was the temptation: Genesis 3:4-5 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (as if knowing evil was a good thing)
So then man did learn of evil: Genesis 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
Then the Lord says something very interesting: Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- ***Man HAS BECOME like US.*** (It would be interesting to know who He was speaking to.)Romans 5 is a great chapter on this subject: Romans 5:12 "When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned." Romans 5:18-19 "Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life. Because one person disobeyed God, many people became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many people will be made right in God's sight."
Deuteronomy 30 is a good chapter on choice. Deuteronomy 30:15-24 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."
I hope this gets you a little closer to your answer.
God bless.
Posted by Flipsactown on April 17, 2004, at 4:14:03
In reply to Re: Free Will » Flipsactown, posted by simus on April 17, 2004, at 3:27:07
Simus,
Thanks for the explanation. I guess what I still don't understand is when God told us not to eat from the tree of knowledge, that we being created in God's image Who is all Good and Perfect that our only course of action would have been the good one, which was not to eat from the tree of knowledge.
Another profound question I have is why did God create us? God is all Good and Perfect which to me means God is all set. God has everything God wants and everything is Good and Perfect so all of God's needs are met. So why did God create us? It can't be God was lonely because everything is already Good and Perfect.
Just another struggling Christian,
FST
> Hi, and sorry to have taken so long to respond.
>
> > Now this is where I am confused. Since God is all Good and Perfect and we are created in God's image, then when God gave us free will to know good from bad, we would always choose good because we were created in God's image to be all Good. As I am wanting to continue to strengthen my faith in God, can someone please explain this to me.
>
> First of all, I have to apologize for trying to answer your question without the Word of God. That was very shallow on my part. I love your openness and honesty, and your eagerness to understand God and to increase your faith in Him. I pray that something I say here turns on the "lightbulb".
>
> You are right. We were created in God's image. Genesis 1:27 This just means that we have a spirit, a soul, and a body. Part of our soul is our will. God has a will, and He gave man a will also. Throughout history, God has never imposed His will on man without man's permission. We are by no means clones of God. Isaiah 55:8-9 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."
>
> God is good, and there is no evil in Him. But He does know of evil and death. So out of His goodness, He tried to protect man from ever knowing evil. Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
>
> Then there was the temptation: Genesis 3:4-5 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (as if knowing evil was a good thing)
>
> So then man did learn of evil: Genesis 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
>
> Then the Lord says something very interesting: Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- ***Man HAS BECOME like US.*** (It would be interesting to know who He was speaking to.)
>
> Romans 5 is a great chapter on this subject: Romans 5:12 "When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned." Romans 5:18-19 "Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life. Because one person disobeyed God, many people became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many people will be made right in God's sight."
>
> Deuteronomy 30 is a good chapter on choice. Deuteronomy 30:15-24 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."
>
> I hope this gets you a little closer to your answer.
>
> God bless.
Posted by rayww on April 17, 2004, at 11:37:11
In reply to Re: Free Will » rayww, posted by simus on April 17, 2004, at 1:36:13
> > A phrase here or there read out of context can give a personal meaning to a private question. If you notice, God has slipped in a lot of those "out of context" verses in the middle of a dialogue, that are placed there just for those who are searching for answers. I wish everyone could understand this. Jude 1:6
<<<<I was thinking of the dual meaning of scripture, specifically parables. But, as I have been studying the tiny one-chapter book of Jude, the half brother of Jesus, that is placed right before the book of Revelation, I must admit I was wrong in using that as an example. At first it seemed to me that verse 6 was out of context because he suddenly began talking about the pre-existance.
Jude was talking to members of the church who had already gone through the process of believing and baptism. He is speaking of subjects that his congregation is well versed in, probably quoting from texts written by other prophets. (there was no Bible as we have it, but they certainly had books of the prophets) In my opinion (IMHO) What Jude is alluding to in verse 6 is "why should the wicked and ungodly think they shall escape damnation when God even cast one third of the hosts of heaven out for their rebellion? (2Peter 2:1-9 also) http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=2+Peter+2%3A1-9&search.x=31&search.y=10
Those to whom Jude was speaking already knew about pre-existance, the war in heaven, and the probationary nature of this earth life. Here is a Biblical explanation of some of the phrases used in Jude 1:6:
"The angels which kept not thier first estate" (Revelations 12:1-17) http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=revelations+12%3A1-17&search.x=28&search.y=5
"everlasting chains" Lucifer and one third of all the hosts of heaven are damned forever. For them there is no earth life, only darkness to all eternity. see Heb 12:9-10 http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=hebrews+12%3A9-10&search.x=31&search.y=10
Revelations 20 certainly supports this idea of Jude's that how we live our lives matters.
http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/20>
> Maybe it is the hour, but I am trying really hard to understand what you are saying here and I just don't follow you. Where has God slipped in anything "out of context"? After all of my Bible studying, I sincerely can't come up with one thing that God "slipped in" that didn't pertain to the context of the Word. Could you give me an example(s)of one? I know that Jesus at times seemed to say things that weren't clear to those who were hearing. Is that what you mean?<<<<<I was careless in my choice of words, and like you, I have never seen a verse yet that was not in perfect context, poetic or otherwise, with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is dual meaning and application for every generation in parable, and in some prophesy, not to mention personal messages that come to us when we open our scriptures to find much needed counsel from the Lord. Every prophet saw our day and prophesied about it. It must be pretty important, and so must we.
>
>If I remember correctly, you are a Mormon, right? I don't know what other books Mormons study, but are you possibly referring to a book other than the Bible?<<<<<
I write from my own Mormon understanding, and like Jude, as he was teaching believers who already had a broad understanding of the early writings of the Prophets, I also read the writings of Abraham and Moses, and our other books, and look forward to reading ancient texts from sources such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. though I haven't yet. Each book gives light and understanding to the other, when read together. I'm not trying to be confrontational either. I respect your views about the Bible, and revere all who have preserved it.> I really am not trying to be confrontational. I am honestly just trying to understand what you are saying. And could you explain your reference to Jude 6?
<<<<
I tried to explain it, but not as an out of context verse. I have seen the light, and repent. Please forgive my thoughtless remark.>
> > You have brought up a very interesting topic, and one that we should all study and pray about. Man, I wish I could be an ensign to someone. Yes, that's what I want to be when I grow up. An ensign. Someone who helps others find and discover Jesus Christ.
>
>The term "ensign" in reference to Christian life is new to me. Is "ensign" your religion's term for a mentor?<<<<
I don't know what my religion's term is for it, but my own opinion is that it is like a flag, or a light, someone to point the way to happiness. Just me rambling again. I tend to do that sometimes :)I wonder if the word (Bible) can ever get in the way of Christ. I mean, do most believers use the word to give them a testimony of Jesus Christ, or does it ever stop there? Is it possible to worship the Bible and miss the mark of Christ? Or the cross? Is Christ your Lord and Savior because you know him, or because you know about him? I'm not sure if I was able to ask what it is I am truly wondering about or not. If there was no Bible could you still believe in Christ, just because He is, and God hears and answers prayers, etc? Sorry for asking such a dumb question.
And Bob will say, ""well, if you are sorry and you know it was a dumb question, then why did you ask it??? Duh...
Posted by simus on April 17, 2004, at 14:31:45
In reply to Re: Free Will » simus, posted by Flipsactown on April 17, 2004, at 4:14:03
> I guess what I still don't understand is when God told us not to eat from the tree of knowledge, that we being created in God's image Who is all Good and Perfect that our only course of action would have been the good one, which was not to eat from the tree of knowledge.
>
> Another profound question I have is why did God create us? God is all Good and Perfect which to me means God is all set. God has everything God wants and everything is Good and Perfect so all of God's needs are met. So why did God create us? It can't be God was lonely because everything is already Good and Perfect.
Hey Flipsactown,You are a blast! God will honor your perseverance to learn the truth, and someday He will use you to bring this truth to others. It is the truth that sets you free, so if anything in your understanding is making you feel bound, keep searching!!!
As you search the scriptures, you will find many references to us as the "children of God". I will use human children as an analogy to spiritual children. Ideally, parents, out of love, create children. The marriage may be great. They may have very fulfilling lives. So what motivates them to have children? First and formost, the desire to have someone to love. Secondly, the desire to be loved in return. The love of a child is so pure and priceless, and there is NOTHING that can compare. So the parents create a child. The child is created in the image of the parents - mom's eyes, dad's nose, etc. The parents raise and nurture the child, teaching him everything he needs to know for life. The end result is not a duplicate of either parent. The end result is a completely unique human being. There will be physical resemblances to the mother and father. There will undoubtedly be knowledge and wisdom from the parents. But the child grows up being his own person. And that is what good parents want. They want their children to grow up healthy and strong, and to be the best they can be. And the parents continue loving the adult child, and the adult child continues loving the parents. (Remember, I used the word "ideally". LOL)
I want to strongly encourage you to continue to read and study the Bible. Get a good, "readable" version, like NKJV or NIV if you don't already have one. The more you read and study, the more the truths "pop out" at you. That is the Spirit of God leading you into all truths. I would also like you encourage you to pray, not some grand religious prayer, but pray as a child asking his daddy a question. He understands our "humanness". And He is so faithful and good to His children.
I wish you the best in your pursuit. The Christian walk is a blast! Not always easy, not free from challenges, but growing closer and closer to the Creator (and Abba "father") is a rare and priceless treasure.
God bless.
Posted by simus on April 17, 2004, at 14:40:50
In reply to Re: Free Will » Flipsactown, posted by simus on April 17, 2004, at 14:31:45
Oh, and since I am already "meddling"... in case you don't have one, find a good, Bible teaching church and get hooked up there (settled, involved).
=)
Posted by Flipsactown on April 17, 2004, at 17:04:10
In reply to Re: Free Will » Flipsactown, posted by simus on April 17, 2004, at 14:31:45
Simus,
That still does not explain why God created us because God is all Good (which means God has everything God wants} and Perfect (which means God has no other needs like Love since God is Love, Perfect Love). I understand and believe we are little children of God. But what I don't understand is why God who is all Good and Perfect would need the desire to be Loved or share God's Love. You are probably wondering why I don't use the word "His" for God the Father. I believe Jesus is Lord and God and believe "His" would be appropriate. For God the "Father", I am not so sure that God the Father is a He or She. This is another question I would like to have explained. Thanks for being patient with me.
God Bless.
FST
> > I guess what I still don't understand is when God told us not to eat from the tree of knowledge, that we being created in God's image Who is all Good and Perfect that our only course of action would have been the good one, which was not to eat from the tree of knowledge.
> >
> > Another profound question I have is why did God create us? God is all Good and Perfect which to me means God is all set. God has everything God wants and everything is Good and Perfect so all of God's needs are met. So why did God create us? It can't be God was lonely because everything is already Good and Perfect.
>
>
> Hey Flipsactown,
>
> You are a blast! God will honor your perseverance to learn the truth, and someday He will use you to bring this truth to others. It is the truth that sets you free, so if anything in your understanding is making you feel bound, keep searching!!!
>
> As you search the scriptures, you will find many references to us as the "children of God". I will use human children as an analogy to spiritual children. Ideally, parents, out of love, create children. The marriage may be great. They may have very fulfilling lives. So what motivates them to have children? First and formost, the desire to have someone to love. Secondly, the desire to be loved in return. The love of a child is so pure and priceless, and there is NOTHING that can compare. So the parents create a child. The child is created in the image of the parents - mom's eyes, dad's nose, etc. The parents raise and nurture the child, teaching him everything he needs to know for life. The end result is not a duplicate of either parent. The end result is a completely unique human being. There will be physical resemblances to the mother and father. There will undoubtedly be knowledge and wisdom from the parents. But the child grows up being his own person. And that is what good parents want. They want their children to grow up healthy and strong, and to be the best they can be. And the parents continue loving the adult child, and the adult child continues loving the parents. (Remember, I used the word "ideally". LOL)
>
> I want to strongly encourage you to continue to read and study the Bible. Get a good, "readable" version, like NKJV or NIV if you don't already have one. The more you read and study, the more the truths "pop out" at you. That is the Spirit of God leading you into all truths. I would also like you encourage you to pray, not some grand religious prayer, but pray as a child asking his daddy a question. He understands our "humanness". And He is so faithful and good to His children.
>
> I wish you the best in your pursuit. The Christian walk is a blast! Not always easy, not free from challenges, but growing closer and closer to the Creator (and Abba "father") is a rare and priceless treasure.
>
> God bless.
Posted by Jai Narayan on April 17, 2004, at 17:44:00
In reply to Re: Free Will » simus, posted by Flipsactown on April 17, 2004, at 17:04:10
I'm not sure if you even took notice of what I said.....
But there are quite a few spiritual folks that believe that God is evolving just like us...
I think that makes the most amount of sense to me.
It's not over....yet and may never be....how do you like them apples?
Posted by Flipsactown on April 17, 2004, at 18:39:26
In reply to Hi, posted by Jai Narayan on April 17, 2004, at 17:44:00
Hi Jai,
I did not comment on your post because I was not sure what you were talking about. If God is all Good and Perfect, there would be no reason for God to evolve and since I think of God as an Absolute God, an evolving god would not make sense to me. Just my opinion. Thanks for your input.
God Bless
FST> I'm not sure if you even took notice of what I said.....
> But there are quite a few spiritual folks that believe that God is evolving just like us...
> I think that makes the most amount of sense to me.
> It's not over....yet and may never be....how do you like them apples?
Posted by rayww on April 17, 2004, at 23:50:41
In reply to Re: Free Will » simus, posted by Flipsactown on April 17, 2004, at 17:04:10
I don't know if you understand "why" God wanted you to be born, but it is important that you know that, God "did" want you to be born. You are here for a purpose, and have a particular mission that only you can do. Only you. You are unique, and are in the right place at the right time. Bloom.
God loves you and wants you to succeed. We have all been given a measure of life and it is up to each of us to fill the measure of our creation, whatever that might be.
Posted by simus on April 18, 2004, at 1:25:52
In reply to Re: Free Will » simus, posted by Flipsactown on April 17, 2004, at 17:04:10
Please don't be offended, but the confusion is in the definitons you are tacking on to the words "good" and "perfect". Yes, God is good, and perfect in all of His ways. (I use the masculine form "His" because God is referred to throughout the Bible in masculine terms. If He is indeed "gender neutral", He will forgive me.) As you study the Bible you will find that God does not have everything He wants. He may be void of needs, but He is not void of desires. God does have a "personality". He has "emotions". He loves, He hates, He can become angry, He can be pleased. He is very, very real. Many things have happened that God did not want to happen. As a matter of fact, there was a time that God regretted creating the human race. Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." But in His mercy, He did save Noah and his family.
Anyway, back to why He created us. When I said we are His children, I didn't mean His "little kids". I meant we are His inheritance. He takes pleasure in us (at times). He delights in us (at times). David was called the apple of God's eye. Moses was called God's friend. We are His beloved. "For God so loved the world..."I really want to encourage you again to read the Bible, at least the book of Genesis. It will answer a lot of questions for you.
God bless.
> That still does not explain why God created us because God is all Good (which means God has everything God wants} and Perfect (which means God has no other needs like Love since God is Love, Perfect Love). I understand and believe we are little children of God. But what I don't understand is why God who is all Good and Perfect would need the desire to be Loved or share God's Love. You are probably wondering why I don't use the word "His" for God the Father. I believe Jesus is Lord and God and believe "His" would be appropriate. For God the "Father", I am not so sure that God the Father is a He or She. This is another question I would like to have explained. Thanks for being patient with me.
Posted by Flipsactown on April 19, 2004, at 5:56:16
In reply to Re: Free Will » Flipsactown, posted by simus on April 18, 2004, at 1:25:52
Simus,
Not offended at all. I asked for some enlightenment and you have provided it. You are correct that I am confused on the definition of a Good, Perfect and Absolute God because I think of God in those absolute terms and to me that would mean God is all set in everything and in everyway. You are also right in my needing to get back to reading the Word of God. I have at least 3 copies of the Bible which I have not touched in years and also need to go back to attending church on a regular basis. This is a good start in that I am acknowledging what I need to do. Thanks for the insight.
God Bless.
FST> Please don't be offended, but the confusion is in the definitons you are tacking on to the words "good" and "perfect". Yes, God is good, and perfect in all of His ways. (I use the masculine form "His" because God is referred to throughout the Bible in masculine terms. If He is indeed "gender neutral", He will forgive me.) As you study the Bible you will find that God does not have everything He wants. He may be void of needs, but He is not void of desires. God does have a "personality". He has "emotions". He loves, He hates, He can become angry, He can be pleased. He is very, very real. Many things have happened that God did not want to happen. As a matter of fact, there was a time that God regretted creating the human race. Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." But in His mercy, He did save Noah and his family.
>
> Anyway, back to why He created us. When I said we are His children, I didn't mean His "little kids". I meant we are His inheritance. He takes pleasure in us (at times). He delights in us (at times). David was called the apple of God's eye. Moses was called God's friend. We are His beloved. "For God so loved the world..."
>
> I really want to encourage you again to read the Bible, at least the book of Genesis. It will answer a lot of questions for you.
>
> God bless.
>
>
> > That still does not explain why God created us because God is all Good (which means God has everything God wants} and Perfect (which means God has no other needs like Love since God is Love, Perfect Love). I understand and believe we are little children of God. But what I don't understand is why God who is all Good and Perfect would need the desire to be Loved or share God's Love. You are probably wondering why I don't use the word "His" for God the Father. I believe Jesus is Lord and God and believe "His" would be appropriate. For God the "Father", I am not so sure that God the Father is a He or She. This is another question I would like to have explained. Thanks for being patient with me.
>
>
>
Posted by wvClifton on June 11, 2004, at 13:43:52
In reply to Free Will, posted by Flipsactown on April 14, 2004, at 11:43:05
some theologians hold that God cannot do anything inconsistent with himself, for instance, he cannot lie (on account of His moral perfection). so He cannot say one thing and do another.
in giving humans free will (so the story goes), it had to be what it was, just that: free will. and being free meant that evil had to be a possibility. if God were to subsequently intervene, then humans could no longer be said to have freewill. in the words of one theologian i read, God has "forever forsworn the use of police power."
i myself think this has something to do with human consciousness--that if there were not good and evil, dialetical opposites which are probably ontologically necessary to each other, then consciousness probably wouldn't be possible. Jung hints at this in his writings. (if you're interested in reading it, let me know and i'll look it up for you.)
but that's niether here nor there. i wanted also to share that some theological thinking makes a distinction between what's called the "permissive will of God" vs. "God's perfect will" for each individual. under the permissive will of God, all sorts of evil shit can happen and God will not prevent it, if that's what we choose. but God's perfect will would be our ultimate good, presumably the fulfillment of all the potentials He has given us.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 12, 2004, at 8:14:27
In reply to Re: Free Will » Flipsactown, posted by wvClifton on June 11, 2004, at 13:43:52
> under the permissive will of God, all sorts of evil sh[*]t can happen
Sorry to interrupt, but please don't use language that could offend others.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by 64bowtie on June 14, 2004, at 12:43:47
In reply to Re: Free Will » Flipsactown, posted by wvClifton on June 11, 2004, at 13:43:52
.....he means it!!! He keeps up these boards better than any others I've seen. Be glad instead of sad...
Rod
This is the end of the thread.
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