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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 19, 2004, at 12:39:12
I was raised in the Catholic church. I am now 35. I was never brought up with the whole "Catholic Guilt" thing. I had a pretty standard Catholic education, but I cannot relate to those Catholics who are older than I am who speak of the church as something I never experienced. About how strict it was, punishing it was, unforgiving. This is not the Catholic church I know. The church I know is welcoming and loving.
After Vatican II, was there a marked shift in Catholic education? Speaking to Catholics my age or younger, we all have the same experience. Speaking to older Catholics, it is a different story.
Why the discrepancy?
Posted by Flipsactown on April 20, 2004, at 11:49:21
In reply to Calling all Catholics, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 19, 2004, at 12:39:12
I am male, 18 years older than you, and I know what the "Catholic Guilt" was all about, at least from my point of view. My parents took us to church practically every Sunday and I attended because my parents did, and I thought that if I did not go to church or "Mass" every Sunday that I was going directly to Hell, "do not pass go, do not collect $200". So instead of attending church to praise God and experience God's Love, I went because I did not want to go directly to hell. When I got older, I realized that I did not like attending Mass just for the sake of going to church. I did not like all the strict rules, no meat on Fridays, one had to go to confession before one could receive Holy Communion, the Bread of Life and on top of that one could not eat anything 3 hours before receiving Communion. Vatican II from what I understand loosened some of these "manmade rules". Bottomline: I was married in a Catholic Church over 30years ago and have 3 sons. Although I no longer attend Mass on a regular basis, the Catholic Church laid down the foundation for my deep belief in our Lord, Jesus Christ. Although my sons do not attend Mass on a regular basis, they have learned from my wife and myself that Salvation is not just about attending Mass every Sunday and following manmade rules, it is opening your heart to Him so that you can follow in His footsteps.
God Bless.
FST
> I was raised in the Catholic church. I am now 35. I was never brought up with the whole "Catholic Guilt" thing. I had a pretty standard Catholic education, but I cannot relate to those Catholics who are older than I am who speak of the church as something I never experienced. About how strict it was, punishing it was, unforgiving. This is not the Catholic church I know. The church I know is welcoming and loving.
>
> After Vatican II, was there a marked shift in Catholic education? Speaking to Catholics my age or younger, we all have the same experience. Speaking to older Catholics, it is a different story.
>
> Why the discrepancy?
Posted by Jai Narayan on April 21, 2004, at 19:18:22
In reply to Calling all Catholics, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 19, 2004, at 12:39:12
I like your questions and presentation. I grew up a Catholic. I am one of those older people you speak of.
reasons why I loved my experiences:
1. I loved the incense
2. I loved the robes, candles, and ritual
3. I loved the latin mass
4. I sang in the choir and loved that experience as well
5. I loved my sense of devotion, my utter faith
6. I loved being the virgin Mary in a play at Christmas
7. I had a wonderful experience with a nun in my 6th grade class, she really saw the real me and supported my art. Her support turned my life around.
8. I loved exploring the church towers one night with a group of kids my age while the church had a celebration in the basement, I felt like Nancy Drew
What I didn't like:
1. I was never taught science
2. We sat in class rooms that were seperated, boys on one side of the room and girls on the other....we were forbidden to look across... yeks!
3. Some of the nuns seemed quite tense and had very little joy in their lives...some of the priests as well.
4. I hated kissing the Monsignor's ring on his finger when he lay in open cassket in the church. Most bizzare!
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2004, at 23:48:20
In reply to Calling all Catholics, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 19, 2004, at 12:39:12
I've never understood the association between guilt and Catholicism either. I grew up post Vatican II as well. But I don't know any older people who are consumed by guilt either. In fact, to my rather more puritan Mormon soul (I was raised half Mormon, half Catholic), the Catholics I knew seemed absolutely carefree. They didn't appear to worry about sin overmuch because they knew they could confess and receive absolution. For many their faith brought immense comfort, for others it was more rote and formulaic. But I don't think I knew a single soul who was consumed by guilt.
And I grew up in Catholic schools among Catholic schoolgirls who in my not unbiased opinion could have used a bit more guilt. I'm speaking of the individuals who taunted me, of course. Not Catholic girls in general.
Hmmm.... Maybe not completely correct. There may have been a very few people suffering from scrupulosity, but that is an OCD variant, and I don't think you can blame it on the Catholic Church. And there were one or two people who had some serious problems where guilt would be appropriate, and they turned to religion to cleanse themselves. But that was also true of other denominations. Not specific to Catholics.
Perhaps there is a cultural component. Perhaps it depends as much on what part of the world/country/diocese you are part of as it does on the faith as a whole.
I suppose the Catholic church does place a bit more emphasis on "works" than some Protestant religions, but since it also incorporates clear rituals for the forgiveness of sins, I don't think that in itself would increase guilt.
So, the short answer embedded in this long post is that I'm not sure why Catholicism and guilt are connected in some people's minds.
Posted by Flipsactown on April 22, 2004, at 2:27:54
In reply to Re: Calling all Catholics » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2004, at 23:48:20
I think the "guilt" trip Miss Honeychurch is referring to, from my recollection of pre-Vatican II, is the God fearing Catholic versus the God loving Catholic. Post Vatican II is the Catholic who thinks of God as loving and forgiving rather than to be feared. Also, if you sinned like skipping Sunday Mass, or eating meat on Friday or not going to confession, that YOU ARE SO DOOMED to go to Hell. That is where the guilt trip lies.
God Bless.
FST
> I've never understood the association between guilt and Catholicism either. I grew up post Vatican II as well. But I don't know any older people who are consumed by guilt either. In fact, to my rather more puritan Mormon soul (I was raised half Mormon, half Catholic), the Catholics I knew seemed absolutely carefree. They didn't appear to worry about sin overmuch because they knew they could confess and receive absolution. For many their faith brought immense comfort, for others it was more rote and formulaic. But I don't think I knew a single soul who was consumed by guilt.
>
> And I grew up in Catholic schools among Catholic schoolgirls who in my not unbiased opinion could have used a bit more guilt. I'm speaking of the individuals who taunted me, of course. Not Catholic girls in general.
>
> Hmmm.... Maybe not completely correct. There may have been a very few people suffering from scrupulosity, but that is an OCD variant, and I don't think you can blame it on the Catholic Church. And there were one or two people who had some serious problems where guilt would be appropriate, and they turned to religion to cleanse themselves. But that was also true of other denominations. Not specific to Catholics.
>
> Perhaps there is a cultural component. Perhaps it depends as much on what part of the world/country/diocese you are part of as it does on the faith as a whole.
>
> I suppose the Catholic church does place a bit more emphasis on "works" than some Protestant religions, but since it also incorporates clear rituals for the forgiveness of sins, I don't think that in itself would increase guilt.
>
> So, the short answer embedded in this long post is that I'm not sure why Catholicism and guilt are connected in some people's minds.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 22, 2004, at 8:48:50
In reply to Re: Calling all Catholics » Dinah, posted by Flipsactown on April 22, 2004, at 2:27:54
That's exactly right, Flip. Was the point of Vatican II to make Catholocism more warm and fuzzy and attract more converts or retain more Catholics? Did the church see a crisis of faith coming and want to head it off at the pass? I wish I knew more about Vatican II.
A few months ago I went to a Catholic Church which performs the pre Vatican II mass. I absolutely LOVED it. I loved the latin, I loved that the priest was NOT facing us, that he was worshiping it seemed WITH us instead of preaching TO us. I loved the no taking communion by hand. I loved it all save for the head covering. I'm not sure what that is all about.
I guess in short I am wondering why Vatican II made the Catholic mass more Protestant? Anyone?
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 22, 2004, at 10:41:06
In reply to I was a Catholic, posted by Jai Narayan on April 21, 2004, at 19:18:22
Jai,
I recently learned that if you were baptised a Catholic, you are a CAtholic the rest of your life whether you like it ot not!!!! I gather from your postings that you are Buddhist, but did you know that in fact you are still Catholic??
I wonder if any other religions have this baptism rule? It just seems so humorous to me!
Posted by Flipsactown on April 22, 2004, at 12:27:11
In reply to Re: Calling all Catholics » Flipsactown, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 22, 2004, at 8:48:50
Miss HoneyChurch,
Now I am starting to remember why I didn't particulary enjoy or want to go to Sunday Mass pre Vatican II. It was those things you were referring to, the priest facing the alter, the Mass in Latin, women with head cover, etc. Those things were too mysterious for me, and probably to a lot of other Catholics, to the point that the meaning and purpose Mass was overshadowed by the man made rituals listed above. Since I didn't understand what the priest was saying or doing, I could not enjoy and appreciate why I was attending mass. A good example of this is the practice of many women, mainly, saying the Rosary silently during Mass. I suppose there is nothing wrong with saying the Rosary during Mass, but to me, the whole point of attending Mass is to worship our Lord Jesus Christ and experience God's Love by actually participating and understanding what was going on during Mass, not just to sit down, kneel, standup, repeat, and not knowing why.
Bottomline: I am still Catholic but I no longer obsess over the man made rituals but focus on living my life to be good, kind, loving and Christ-like in everyway. If that is more Protestant like, so be it.
God Bless.
FST> That's exactly right, Flip. Was the point of Vatican II to make Catholocism more warm and fuzzy and attract more converts or retain more Catholics? Did the church see a crisis of faith coming and want to head it off at the pass? I wish I knew more about Vatican II.
>
> A few months ago I went to a Catholic Church which performs the pre Vatican II mass. I absolutely LOVED it. I loved the latin, I loved that the priest was NOT facing us, that he was worshiping it seemed WITH us instead of preaching TO us. I loved the no taking communion by hand. I loved it all save for the head covering. I'm not sure what that is all about.
>
> I guess in short I am wondering why Vatican II made the Catholic mass more Protestant? Anyone?
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 22, 2004, at 12:34:24
In reply to Re: Calling all Catholics » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Flipsactown on April 22, 2004, at 12:27:11
It's interesting, as I've gotten older I finally understand all the reasoning behind the ritual and it has made me appreciate it even more. AS a child, I had no idea whay we were doing certain things during certain times. Now I become somewhat annoyed when I go to church and only half the people are kneeling at certain times, mainly because I think people don't know when to keel and get up anymore. It's funny ow people respond to different things.
I think the purpose of the Latin mass was to be used as a unifyer for Catholics - that you could go to Germany or Mozambique and attend mass and still know what was going on. I find that concept so interesting.
Posted by Flipsactown on April 22, 2004, at 12:56:06
In reply to Re: Calling all Catholics » Flipsactown, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 22, 2004, at 12:34:24
> Now I become somewhat annoyed when I go to church and only half the people are kneeling at certain times, mainly because I think people don't know when to keel and get up anymore. It's funny ow people respond to different things.
>They probably don't, but they are at least there to worship God and some can't kneel or stand very long because of a physical ailment like myself. I lie down most of the time due to chronic back pain as a result of being struck by a truck over 20 years ago. That is the major reason why I don't attend Mass on a regular basis anymore. I do my praying at home lying down. In fact, I am lying down right now using a laptop to write this post.
> I think the purpose of the Latin mass was to be used as a unifyer for Catholics - that you could go to Germany or Mozambique and attend mass and still know what was going on. I find that concept so interesting.
That makes sense only if you understand Latin.
God Bless.
FST
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 22, 2004, at 13:27:51
In reply to Re: Calling all Catholics, posted by Flipsactown on April 22, 2004, at 12:56:06
I understand the physical limitations for many people concerning the kneeling, definitely. But I also notice a lot of younger people who have no clue about "order of events" as it were.
I was always taught to genuflect before entering my pew both before and after mass. I notice this isn't done half as much anymore, at least from what I have seen.
Posted by Flipsactown on April 22, 2004, at 14:00:57
In reply to Re: Calling all Catholics » Flipsactown, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 22, 2004, at 13:27:51
That is post Vatican II at work to loosen up rules and rituals thereby decreasing the mystery and hopefully, to keep and attract parishioners. About genuflecting, I also was thought to genuflect before and after leaving the pews at all times not just before and after Mass.
God Bless.
FST> I understand the physical limitations for many people concerning the kneeling, definitely. But I also notice a lot of younger people who have no clue about "order of events" as it were.
>
> I was always taught to genuflect before entering my pew both before and after mass. I notice this isn't done half as much anymore, at least from what I have seen.
Posted by Jai Narayan on April 23, 2004, at 15:21:31
In reply to Re: I was a Catholic » Jai Narayan, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 22, 2004, at 10:41:06
> Jai,
>
> I recently learned that if you were baptised a Catholic, you are a CAtholic the rest of your life whether you like it ot not!!!! I gather from your postings that you are Buddhist, but did you know that in fact you are still Catholic??
**Yup that's what they say....a whole life time.
>
> I wonder if any other religions have this baptism rule? It just seems so humorous to me!
**I was a Sikh and I think they claim you for your life as well if you take the Baisakhi Day pledge. Which I didn't do.
Kind of like confirmation for the Catholic.
It's a devotion commitment to the religion.
I am now into the Buddha as my last religion. It's a kind of non religion. But when I went through all the other religions the only one left for me was the smiling face of Buddha. So I will follow my heart, body and spirit to my life goal of being the best I can be in my lifetime.
I guess this is more than you asked for but oh well here it is. Thank you so much for asking.
Posted by rayww on April 23, 2004, at 19:46:43
In reply to Re: I was a Catholic, posted by Jai Narayan on April 23, 2004, at 15:21:31
This thread is pretty interesting. Baptism is certainly not like that in our church. Ours is a covenant baptism. We covenant to keep the commandments and God covenants to forgive us of all repented sins, and promises that the spirit of the Holy Ghost will be our constant companion. If we move away from the covenant we lose our rights of membership.
The rights of membership are three-fold:
1. the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost,
2. Forgiveness for sin
3. Membership on record.If we move "too far" away from the covenant (adultry, crime, etc) the spirit not only withdraws from us, we may also lose our membership in the church. And if we don't repent it's like not buying into the atonement, or rejecting what Jesus tried to do for us and choosing to suffer for our own sins instead.
Baptism is not just about getting wet, it is pure symbolism, so those who scoff, really don't know what it is they are scoffing at.
To remind us of our baptism - each Sunday we go through the (symbolic) ordinance of sacrament, which is renewal of the baptism covenant, then we begin each week forgiven of our repented sins. That's why it feels so good to go to church "each" Sunday---spiritually, physically, mentally, socially, etc. It is a literal spiritual renewal.
It is my opinion that life is a wonderful game when you play by the correct rules. I just happen to believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rules. And, I can't even close by quoting what you said because I realize nobody asked me :(
rayww> > Jai,
> >
> > I recently learned that if you were baptised a Catholic, you are a CAtholic the rest of your life whether you like it ot not!!!! I gather from your postings that you are Buddhist, but did you know that in fact you are still Catholic??
> **Yup that's what they say....a whole life time.
> >
> > I wonder if any other religions have this baptism rule? It just seems so humorous to me!
> **I was a Sikh and I think they claim you for your life as well if you take the Baisakhi Day pledge. Which I didn't do.
> Kind of like confirmation for the Catholic.
> It's a devotion commitment to the religion.
> I am now into the Buddha as my last religion. It's a kind of non religion. But when I went through all the other religions the only one left for me was the smiling face of Buddha. So I will follow my heart, body and spirit to my life goal of being the best I can be in my lifetime.
> I guess this is more than you asked for but oh well here it is. Thank you so much for asking.
>
>
>
Posted by Jai Narayan on April 24, 2004, at 14:53:54
In reply to Re: I was a Catholic » Jai Narayan, posted by rayww on April 23, 2004, at 19:46:43
What a moving and inspiring sharing.
Your faith is so vital, fresh and vibrant.
I thank you for sharing what you did.
I can see why you are so inspired.
I hope to be as present with my faith, devotion, and spirituality.
Thank you.
Posted by rayww on April 25, 2004, at 10:19:41
In reply to wow, posted by Jai Narayan on April 24, 2004, at 14:53:54
Thanks for saying thankyou, and I sincerely hope you can find what you need in your religion. Is there any two-way communication between you and your higher power in your religion, or is it just communication with your inner self? Just a question.
Posted by Jai Narayan on April 25, 2004, at 21:28:31
In reply to Re: wow » Jai Narayan, posted by rayww on April 25, 2004, at 10:19:41
> Is there any two-way communication between you and your higher power in your religion, or is it just communication with your inner self?
***such an interesting question.
My dialogue with my divine is too sacred to chat about. It's very personal.
Nice quesiton though.
I am open to your search for truth.
Posted by rayww on April 27, 2004, at 16:44:06
In reply to hello rayww, posted by Jai Narayan on April 25, 2004, at 21:28:31
Your last statement can be read two ways.
1st Response:
Although I believe we can learn something from each person we meet, my search for truth is going well within the framework of my religion, thank-you. I do appreciate your offer, but I am 100% confident and have complete trust in my truth and leaders. God is alive and well. He cannot lie, and His voice can be heard and recognized.
2nd Response:
Same as the 1st, only change the first "my" to "your" (just kidding, just kidding, just kidding) It's OK Bob, read on.......
My truth about God differs from the Christian truth, even though I consider myself a Christian. God created this world, and owns it. After the fall of Adam it was He who communed with the prophets on the earth. And then He came to earth to gain a mortal body, "and" atone for the sins of mankind "and" redeem us from the fall. In a way incomprehendable to us he was born of an immortal father and a mortal mother, a divine miracle of God the Father. Then, God chose to die (willingly give up His own life), and three days later He was resurrected. He now resides with his Father, two separate resurrected imortalized glorious beings. They are not a mass of nothingness so large they fill the universe, yet so small they can dwell in our hearts. That is the light of Christ. Some religions only go so far as to believe in the "Light of Christ" and deny the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost as being three separate beings, two of body, and one of spirit.If you are, as you say open to "my" search for truth, the first thing to do is find out for yourself who God really is.
If you are opening yourself to my search, then how would you answer the question I asked about "your" higher power? I have explained mine.
rayww> > Is there any two-way communication between you and your higher power in your religion, or is it just communication with your inner self?
>
> ***such an interesting question.
> My dialogue with my divine is too sacred to chat about. It's very personal.
> Nice quesiton though.
> I am open to your search for truth.
>
>
>
Posted by Jai Narayan on April 27, 2004, at 20:55:04
In reply to Re: hello rayww, posted by rayww on April 27, 2004, at 16:44:06
> If you are opening yourself to my search, then how would you answer the question I asked about "your" higher power?
** if I am open to your search....
does not follow the other question: what about my higher power....I see no connection.
My higher power is not a higher power...
God and I are one. There is no seperation.
Posted by AntiTrust on May 19, 2004, at 21:23:52
In reply to Calling all Catholics, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 19, 2004, at 12:39:12
I was never 'Catholic' raised in no religion at all-started having my babies in my 20's and turned to God-I am a born again Christian......
This is the end of the thread.
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