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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2005, at 11:47:16
I have been reading about the 5-h1a agonistic properties of dong-quai, and the 5-ht2a blocking properties of feverfew.
Together the two herbs provide a nice antidepressant effect. Give it a try.
Linkadge
Posted by MoparFan91 on August 30, 2005, at 12:34:23
In reply to Try these two herbs., posted by linkadge on August 30, 2005, at 11:47:16
Very interesting.
I have to give this a try sometime. I currently take a low dose of Abilify as part of my cocktail which has the same properties as those herbs as Abilify does 5-HT1A agonism and 5-HT2A antagonism. However, I get some insomnia from it. Abilify gives me a decent antidepressant effect for the most part. It keeps me out of suicidal ideation; haven't had it since taking it. Geodon at low doses had similar benefits as it had both of those properties too.
I will ask my doctor about giving those herbs a try, and if they work as well as Abilify and Geodon did, then I may see about replacing the Abilify with them.
> I have been reading about the 5-h1a agonistic properties of dong-quai, and the 5-ht2a blocking properties of feverfew.
>
> Together the two herbs provide a nice antidepressant effect. Give it a try.
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2005, at 15:29:57
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs. » linkadge, posted by MoparFan91 on August 30, 2005, at 12:34:23
A *lot* of medicinal herbs (including marajuanna) have constituents that agonist 5-ht1a and antagonize 5-ht2a.
Even melatonin potentiats 5-ht1a receptors responces, and lowers 5-ht2a mediated neurotransmission. Anandamide (the 'bliss chemical') does the same thing
I'd hate to think that many psychiatric drugs could be summed up to these two activities :)
Linkadge
Posted by MoparFan91 on August 30, 2005, at 20:15:19
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs., posted by linkadge on August 30, 2005, at 15:29:57
So, are Dong-Quai and Feverfew sold in health food stores?
What dosages would be recommended for the purposes you mentioned?
> A *lot* of medicinal herbs (including marajuanna) have constituents that agonist 5-ht1a and antagonize 5-ht2a.
>
> Even melatonin potentiats 5-ht1a receptors responces, and lowers 5-ht2a mediated neurotransmission. Anandamide (the 'bliss chemical') does the same thing
>
> I'd hate to think that many psychiatric drugs could be summed up to these two activities :)
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Posted by gromit on August 31, 2005, at 15:12:56
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs., posted by linkadge on August 30, 2005, at 15:29:57
> A *lot* of medicinal herbs (including marajuanna) have constituents that agonist 5-ht1a and antagonize 5-ht2a.
I hate to show what an idiot I am but what exactly do these receptors do?
Thanks,
Rick
Posted by Tenifer on September 1, 2005, at 14:05:56
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs., posted by gromit on August 31, 2005, at 15:12:56
gromit..
Join the club. :)
I think I must be an idiot too. I was wondering the same thing about all these receptors. Is there a cheat sheet somewhere that i can refer to that explains all thee receptors and their function?Also, I'm not sure that I have this right, but what are the laymen's definitions for agonist and antagonist. I'm not sure I want to antagonize anyting. LOL :)
I think that to agonize means to block or limit responsiveness and antagonize exites and promotes activity..? :\
Thanks for the education!
David
Posted by nolvas on September 1, 2005, at 19:59:33
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs., posted by Tenifer on September 1, 2005, at 14:05:56
agonist > a drug that can combine with a receptor on a cell to produce a physiological reaction
antagonist > a drug that neutralizes or counteracts the effects of another drug/receptor or system
So by my reckoning you had it back to front :)
Posted by Tenifer on September 1, 2005, at 21:52:56
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs., posted by nolvas on September 1, 2005, at 19:59:33
Thanks nolvas!
LOL, figures I got it confused... easy for me to do these days. :\
Posted by linkadge on September 2, 2005, at 14:23:13
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs., posted by Tenifer on September 1, 2005, at 21:52:56
The SSRI's work by increasing the neurotransmission at all serotonin receptors (many different subtypes) but certain of those serotonin receptors promote neurogenesis.
Activation (or agonism) of the 5-ht1a receptor seems to represent the bulk of the hippocampal trophic effects of the SSRI's.
Some other drugs like TCA's and antipsychotics block the the 5-ht2a receptor. Activation of this receptor seems to cause anxiety.
There are some prototype drugs in the pipeline for anxiety and adjunctive in depression which act as 5-ht1a agonists and 5-ht2a antagonists.
5-ht1a agonists are antdepressants in animal models.
Linkadge
Posted by gromit on September 2, 2005, at 20:59:05
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs., posted by linkadge on September 2, 2005, at 14:23:13
Posted by Tenifer on September 2, 2005, at 21:17:54
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs., posted by linkadge on September 2, 2005, at 14:23:13
Thanks linkadge. :)
It seems like you basically have two different
manifestations of depression. Let me just
oversimplify by calling them a 'sleepy' depression
characterized by insufficient activation
and an 'anxious' depression that would
be an overly activated state.Based on this crude understanding, and assuming
that I'm suffering from an anxious depression, it
would appear, based on your explanation, that a
TCA might be a preferable option versus an SSRI
(which I have tried and been too activated on).If I've got this all wrong please let me know.
Thanks a lot for the explanations though. It
seems that people refer to depression as though
it were a monolithic condition when, it appears
to me at least, that there are distinct
manifestations of the disorder; each one with a
better-suited agent than the other.Based on this, an SSRI would be best suited for
a 'sleepy' depression while a TCA would be a
better candidate for an anxious depression.Does this make any sense?
Thanks...sorry if I confused any of you.
I'm just trying to take an active and informed
role in determining what treatment regimen
to explore next.David
Posted by linkadge on September 3, 2005, at 7:21:03
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs., posted by Tenifer on September 2, 2005, at 21:17:54
Yes I think you've got it right.
The TCA's are a mixed bundle. Some of them are more suited for anergic depression and others more suited for anxious depression.
Desipramine and nortryptaline might be better for anergic depression whereas doxapine, amitrpytaline and clomipramine better for anxious depression. Imipramine is in the middle.
The TCA's also seem better candidates for resolving somatic anxiety and sleep issues.
But you are right, the noradrenic effects of the TCA's do not fit well with many people. For some they can cause more psychic anxiety. Clearly these are not hard and fast rules, if the SSRI's serve you better, then stick to them.
SSRI's have been better for my mental anxiety, but much worse for my physical anxiety, (nausia, high cortisol, sleep problems, lack of apetite, etc)
Linkadge
Posted by Iansf on September 8, 2005, at 20:20:38
In reply to Try these two herbs., posted by linkadge on August 30, 2005, at 11:47:16
> I have been reading about the 5-h1a agonistic properties of dong-quai, and the 5-ht2a blocking properties of feverfew.
>
> Together the two herbs provide a nice antidepressant effect. Give it a try.
>
>
> LinkadgeIn what amounts?
Posted by linkadge on September 12, 2005, at 11:57:08
In reply to Re: Try these two herbs. » linkadge, posted by Iansf on September 8, 2005, at 20:20:38
I've taken feverfew (300mg) + dong quai (1g) (twice a day)
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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