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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
I tried Nardil plus one St Johns wart tab...nothing much noticed....anyone tried this...i might boost it up to 3 pills.
Guys, keep your pants on!! I have taken and eat so so many drugs contraindicated with Nardil over the years I would be dead 10 times over!
The only real restrictions are SSRI's at anything other than a tiny dose and cheese.
Anafranil cause caused me a paradoxical depression , but a ,lot of the time the drugs that help the most initially have the opposite effect! so I'm stewing on that idea, so i can have a break off Nardil, get some weight off, and get back that fun!
But who knows?
Ace is one crazy fellow!!!
Ace
Posted by linkadge on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
In reply to Nardil St John Wart, posted by ace on June 19, 2005, at 23:04:11
They are contraindicated but who knows.
I had serotonin syndrome on SJW alone.
Actually, have you tried ginkgo with it? I read some report somewhere of patients being able to reduce their MAOI dose with ginkgo.
Linkadge
Posted by rod on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
In reply to Nardil St John Wart, posted by ace on June 19, 2005, at 23:04:11
> Anafranil cause caused me a paradoxical depression , but a ,lot of the time the drugs that help the most initially have the opposite effect!
hi Ace.
When I tried anafranil I also got initial severe worsening of depression, which lasted some days/weeks. But after about 2 month "it kicked in", but like the SSRIs it was a big(gest) straight jacked for me (who does not have OCD). Who knows, it might be your anti OCD magic pill :)
good luck
Posted by willyee on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
In reply to Nardil St John Wart, posted by ace on June 19, 2005, at 23:04:11
> I tried Nardil plus one St Johns wart tab...nothing much noticed....anyone tried this...i might boost it up to 3 pills.
>
> Guys, keep your pants on!! I have taken and eat so so many drugs contraindicated with Nardil over the years I would be dead 10 times over!
>
> The only real restrictions are SSRI's at anything other than a tiny dose and cheese.
>
> Anafranil cause caused me a paradoxical depression , but a ,lot of the time the drugs that help the most initially have the opposite effect! so I'm stewing on that idea, so i can have a break off Nardil, get some weight off, and get back that fun!
>
> But who knows?
>
> Ace is one crazy fellow!!!
>
> Ace
I wouldent,it did not go well with parnate at all.Kava kava might be an option if u find itworks for u,some people do,some dont.ALso i was able to add moclimide to parnate with no problems in fact i was doing well with the two.
St johns effects the enzyme cant think of the name now,c something that is responsable for the breakdown in the liver,and st johns has significant effects with a lot of drugs.But im sure someone took it with no problems,i personaly found it to go terrable with parnate,and as i said moclimide went very well with parnate.
Posted by ed_uk on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » ace, posted by rod on June 20, 2005, at 7:32:52
Hi Roli!
>like the SSRIs it was a big(gest) straight jacked for me (who does not have OCD).
What side effects did you get from Anafranil?
~Ed
PS. I'm not gonna hijack your thread this time ACE!!!
Posted by linkadge on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » rod, posted by ed_uk on June 20, 2005, at 11:55:43
To me SJW is much to unpredicatble a herb to mix with Nardil.
I remember even when I bought the expensive stuff, I would, some days have strange reactions and some days it would go smoothly.
I combined SJW and celexa 5-10mg once and had some very scarry and deep basal ganglia action.
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
In reply to Nardil St John Wart, posted by ace on June 19, 2005, at 23:04:11
Please try sublingual buprenorphine tabs, ace. Mu-opioid agonists have known, powerful anti-OCD and antidepressant properties. Buprenorphine is a kappa antagonist as well as a mu-agonist, which confers it with additional antidepressant and possible antipsychotic activity. You are, IMHO, wasting your time with SJW. Think about it: Nardil addresses in some way SE, NE, GABA, and DA. However, it only addresses DA via MAO inhibition, and since SE--which is "increased" as well via MAO inhibition--counterbalances DA, it still has a somewhat dopamine inhibitory action. Thus, another possibility you may find relief from is a dopamine agonist or psychostimulant. Instead of trying all these esoteric combinations, try to rationally break down what you have going on with the drugs you are taking. Try medications that address neurotransmitter subsystems and/or have mechanisms of action that are not currently in play.
NMDA antagonism also confers an antidepressant effect; thus you may try memantine or amantadine. They also induce DA release.
Posted by rod on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » rod, posted by ed_uk on June 20, 2005, at 11:55:43
> Hi Roli!
>
> >like the SSRIs it was a big(gest) straight jacked for me (who does not have OCD).
>
> What side effects did you get from Anafranil?Hi Ed,
I experienced some dry mouth (not really bad), made my face look somekind of greyish pale (guess its a bit toxic), dandruff (which went away after stopping it) and decreased appetite. as far as I can remember, no "men related" problems
But I know some people which got no side effects from it, apart from a little dry mouth.
Do you think of giving Anafranil a try, Ed?
bye
Roland aka Roli :P
>
> ~Ed
>
> PS. I'm not gonna hijack your thread this time ACE!!!
Posted by ed_uk on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » ed_uk, posted by rod on June 20, 2005, at 17:30:55
Hi Roli!
I will send you a babblemail because I don't want to hijack ace's thread. Check your email account in a few minutes - you'll have mail :-)
Bye Roli,
~Ed
Posted by Phillipa on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:50
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » rod, posted by ed_uk on June 20, 2005, at 17:36:20
Too bad Larry's not around. He might have some good advice. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by willyee on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:51
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » ace, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 20, 2005, at 16:48:57
> Please try sublingual buprenorphine tabs, ace. Mu-opioid agonists have known, powerful anti-OCD and antidepressant properties. Buprenorphine is a kappa antagonist as well as a mu-agonist, which confers it with additional antidepressant and possible antipsychotic activity. You are, IMHO, wasting your time with SJW. Think about it: Nardil addresses in some way SE, NE, GABA, and DA. However, it only addresses DA via MAO inhibition, and since SE--which is "increased" as well via MAO inhibition--counterbalances DA, it still has a somewhat dopamine inhibitory action. Thus, another possibility you may find relief from is a dopamine agonist or psychostimulant. Instead of trying all these esoteric combinations, try to rationally break down what you have going on with the drugs you are taking. Try medications that address neurotransmitter subsystems and/or have mechanisms of action that are not currently in play.
>
> NMDA antagonism also confers an antidepressant effect; thus you may try memantine or amantadine. They also induce DA release.I wanna try this med too,or any good opoid that wont interfere with a maoi.So far my doc,and pharmisct said its a very hard drug to get,the doc has to be speicifacly licensed,as well as the pharmacy and its mostly on prescribed to a select few.I was told a docs practice is only allowed a certain number of pantiets to be on it.
Posted by ace on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:51
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2005, at 6:34:23
> They are contraindicated but who knows.
>
> I had serotonin syndrome on SJW alone.
>
> Actually, have you tried ginkgo with it? I read some report somewhere of patients being able to reduce their MAOI dose with ginkgo.
>
>
> LinkadgeLink,
how many pills did you take bro to get SS????
did it ever have therapeutic effects??
cheers dude,
ace
Posted by ace on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:51
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » ace, posted by rod on June 20, 2005, at 7:32:52
> > Anafranil cause caused me a paradoxical depression , but a ,lot of the time the drugs that help the most initially have the opposite effect!
>
> hi Ace.
>
> When I tried anafranil I also got initial severe worsening of depression, which lasted some days/weeks. But after about 2 month "it kicked in", but like the SSRIs it was a big(gest) straight jacked for me (who does not have OCD). Who knows, it might be your anti OCD magic pill :)
>
> good luck
>It could be man. But traditionally, behind the MAOIs Anafranil is seen as THE best AD -- did you have AD effect big time???
cheers,
ace
Posted by ace on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:51
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » rod, posted by ed_uk on June 20, 2005, at 11:55:43
> Hi Roli!
>
> >like the SSRIs it was a big(gest) straight jacked for me (who does not have OCD).
>
> What side effects did you get from Anafranil?
>
> ~Ed
>
> PS. I'm not gonna hijack your thread this time ACE!!!
Thankyou...Mr. Ace was getting quite annoyed there!!! Just kidding bro!!!!!Ace
Posted by ace on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:51
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » ace, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 20, 2005, at 16:48:57
> Please try sublingual buprenorphine tabs, ace. Mu-opioid agonists have known, powerful anti-OCD and antidepressant properties. Buprenorphine is a kappa antagonist as well as a mu-agonist, which confers it with additional antidepressant and possible antipsychotic activity. You are, IMHO, wasting your time with SJW. Think about it: Nardil addresses in some way SE, NE, GABA, and DA. However, it only addresses DA via MAO inhibition, and since SE--which is "increased" as well via MAO inhibition--counterbalances DA, it still has a somewhat dopamine inhibitory action. Thus, another possibility you may find relief from is a dopamine agonist or psychostimulant. Instead of trying all these esoteric combinations, try to rationally break down what you have going on with the drugs you are taking. Try medications that address neurotransmitter subsystems and/or have mechanisms of action that are not currently in play.
>
> NMDA antagonism also confers an antidepressant effect; thus you may try memantine or amantadine. They also induce DA release.
very helpful post Chairman...Thanks mate, I will research these/.../Ace
Posted by linkadge on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:51
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » Chairman_MAO, posted by ace on June 21, 2005, at 0:25:02
Yes, I would say the best antidepressant I have ever tried was SJW. When it worked after a month or so I really felt well. I felt like myself.
but is is funny, about a week after I would say I was in remission, I started to have very strange symtpoms. I thought it was some sort of panic attack but it was weird because I don't really get panic attacks, and I had felt fine for a week solid.
I had all of the syptoms of serotonin syndrome, and I can say that it was perhaps the worst thing I have ever experienced in my life. I stopped it and was so relieved to have the syptoms abate that I was almost euphoric for a week off of it. I read a few case reports of serotonin syndrome causeing an acute remission after the offending agent was removed.
I started to crash and felt extremely suicidal so went to hospital and got put on celexa.
But I would only try SJW again if it was some synthetic derivitive.
Serotonin syndrome is scarry as hell!!
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:51
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » Chairman_MAO, posted by ace on June 21, 2005, at 0:25:02
Ace: I posted a rational, detailed drug regimen in this post that I believe will help you. Please let me know what you think.
In addition, you can use the drug proglumide (Milid), a CCK antagonist, in one week on, one week off cycles to prevent the development of opioid tolerance. That in combination with memantine would be excellent for that purpose. Please reread this post for my take on what will help you achieve what you want:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050617/msgs/516066.html
Posted by ace on June 22, 2005, at 20:47:51
In reply to Re: your quest/what you need ?ace, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 21, 2005, at 12:07:22
> Ace: I posted a rational, detailed drug regimen in this post that I believe will help you. Please let me know what you think.
>
> In addition, you can use the drug proglumide (Milid), a CCK antagonist, in one week on, one week off cycles to prevent the development of opioid tolerance. That in combination with memantine would be excellent for that purpose. Please reread this post for my take on what will help you achieve what you want:
>
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050617/msgs/516066.html
>
>Thanks heaps Chairman...i apologize for overlooking a post which you obviously put so much care and thought into. I am printing it out now, and will take it home to study.
Thanks again friend,
Your fellow MAOI man!,
Ace
Posted by ed_uk on June 22, 2005, at 20:48:30
In reply to Re: your quest/what you need » ace, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 21, 2005, at 12:07:22
Hi Chairman,
Do you think it would help ACE if he added DLPA to Nardil? ....a bit like people add it to selegiline.
djmmm said he likes the combination of DLPA and Nardil.
~Ed
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 22, 2005, at 20:48:30
In reply to DLPA » Chairman_MAO, posted by ed_uk on June 22, 2005, at 10:24:27
I've never tried this. It should be safe so long as the dosing is moderate. One should watch out for overstimulation in the long-term; I had that problem on selegiline, though it may not be a problem on the calming Nardil. What kind of effect did he report? Right now, I am finding that rhodiola rosea goes well with Nardil.
An interesting drug I was reading about today is droxidopa, which is a synthetic amino acid that is converted by amino acid decarboxylase into NE a la l-dopa is converted to dopamine. No rate-limiting step here--though there are two other enzymes that break it down. It is widely used in some parts of the world to treat dyskinesias in Parkinson's and orthostatic hypotension. I suspect it would make an EXCELLENT treatment for MAOI-induced hypotension, btw, as long as it were titrated carefully upward. Certainly better than Flucortisone if it worked.
Posted by ed_uk on June 22, 2005, at 20:48:30
In reply to Re: DLPA » ed_uk, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 22, 2005, at 15:49:28
Hi Chairman,
>I've never tried this.
Do you think you will?
>What kind of effect did he report?
I think he found it mood elevating.
>droxidopa........
A Japanese drug I believe. They've got lots of interesting drugs in Japan.
~Ed
Posted by willyee on June 22, 2005, at 20:48:30
In reply to Re: DLPA » Chairman_MAO, posted by ed_uk on June 22, 2005, at 17:49:42
> Hi Chairman,
>
> >I've never tried this.
>
> Do you think you will?
>
> >What kind of effect did he report?
>
> I think he found it mood elevating.
>
> >droxidopa........
>
> A Japanese drug I believe. They've got lots of interesting drugs in Japan.
>
> ~EdDid u consider the med chairman recomended i think its spelled cabergoline.Also ive used deprenyl and molcimide with maois to fight the fatigue syndrome and give a added kick.
Both work well,i used dexadrine and that was too much,to speed like.Honestly moclimide in fair doses in between parnate doses just not concaminent worked pretty good with adding a euphoria.
Last did u consider ditching the lamictal.I can say for sure this drug made it impossable for myself to get any benifit from parnate,i quickly dropped this,it does seem useful to some though,i found myself filled with anger on it.
Posted by Richdawn on June 25, 2005, at 8:02:05
In reply to Re: Nardil St John Wart » ace, posted by linkadge on June 21, 2005, at 6:34:00
Hi, Linkage
Could you tell me what brand and dosage of SJW you were on when the serotonin syndrome incident happened?
Since my son, age 22, seems mildly depressed, I told him he could try SJW to see if it would help. He had previously tried Celexa and Zoloft and didn't like the side effects. Now after reading your experiences, I am a little worried that I advised him to try the SJW.He also takes Adderall.
Thanks for any info you can give.
Richdawn
> Yes, I would say the best antidepressant I have ever tried was SJW. When it worked after a month or so I really felt well. I felt like myself.
>
> but is is funny, about a week after I would say I was in remission, I started to have very strange symtpoms. I thought it was some sort of panic attack but it was weird because I don't really get panic attacks, and I had felt fine for a week solid.
>
> I had all of the syptoms of serotonin syndrome, and I can say that it was perhaps the worst thing I have ever experienced in my life. I stopped it and was so relieved to have the syptoms abate that I was almost euphoric for a week off of it. I read a few case reports of serotonin syndrome causeing an acute remission after the offending agent was removed.
>
> I started to crash and felt extremely suicidal so went to hospital and got put on celexa.
>
> But I would only try SJW again if it was some synthetic derivitive.
>
> Serotonin syndrome is scarry as hell!!
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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