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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by stjames on December 7, 2003, at 16:19:47
My dear friend Val, who is a molecular microbiologist, helped form many of my concepts.
MMB is where it all happens, it defines biological life. the parasitologist's dilemma is that all emergent conditions like AIDS, Ebola, ect have actually always been here (we have samples of AIDS from 1950-60's) but it is more likly to be made ill
by the common things. As we cure the common things
we "flush out" the uncommon. The fact that we a moving into areas that were uninhabited has something to do with this, also. So the invention
of antibiotics and vaccines has caused, decades later, many uncommon and deadly pathogens to emerge.However, clearly no one wants polio or septcisis
from a simple cut. The choice of antibiotics and vaccines is clear. Now we are at the point that we have but one antibiotic between as and all the deadly pathogens. The major deadly pathogens have done a good job sharing their DNA and are resistant to all but
one antibiotic, vancomycin. Increasing reliance on vancomycin has led to the emergence of vancomycin-resistant enterococci (VRE). By 1993, however, more than 10 percent of hospital-acquired enterococci infections reported to the CDC were resistant to vancomycin. From the discovery of
antibiotics to this and the last decade we did little to discover new antib's.So, what say you ? Does toxicology have a dilemma
such as this ? The parasitologist might say it was always a loosing battle and we just bought time.
Pathogens are so far ahead of our science; do you see a way out ?
Posted by TeeJay on December 7, 2003, at 16:34:23
In reply to Lar...the parasitologist's dilemma, what say you, posted by stjames on December 7, 2003, at 16:19:47
In the UK at the moment there is a TV series called "Body Snatchers". Its about parasites and things which cause us harm mainly.
the interesting thing though, is that many of our "enemies" are actually our "friends" too. They mentioned a lady who has a bowel disorder whereby her immune system sees it as a foreign body and hence it bleeds and causes great pain and distress. Giving her a type of worm egg in a drink every monthor so has solved her problem. Also a researcher with chronic asthma caught hook worms and his asthma vanished.
Wierd thing nature.
Phil
Posted by stjames on December 7, 2003, at 17:00:14
In reply to Re: Lar...the parasitologist's dilemma, what say you » stjames, posted by TeeJay on December 7, 2003, at 16:34:23
parasites come in many forms, some are host benificial (symbiosis) and some are not. I am speaking of the latter.
That said, when we kill the bad parasites
we often kill the good ones.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 7, 2003, at 19:13:41
In reply to Lar...the parasitologist's dilemma, what say you, posted by stjames on December 7, 2003, at 16:19:47
> My dear friend Val, who is a molecular microbiologist, helped form many of my concepts.
> MMB is where it all happens, it defines biological life. the parasitologist's dilemma is that all emergent conditions like AIDS, Ebola, ect have actually always been here (we have samples of AIDS from 1950-60's) but it is more likly to be made ill
> by the common things. As we cure the common things
> we "flush out" the uncommon. The fact that we a moving into areas that were uninhabited has something to do with this, also. So the invention
> of antibiotics and vaccines has caused, decades later, many uncommon and deadly pathogens to emerge.
>
> However, clearly no one wants polio or septcisis
> from a simple cut. The choice of antibiotics and vaccines is clear. Now we are at the point that we have but one antibiotic between as and all the deadly pathogens. The major deadly pathogens have done a good job sharing their DNA and are resistant to all but
> one antibiotic, vancomycin. Increasing reliance on vancomycin has led to the emergence of vancomycin-resistant enterococci (VRE). By 1993, however, more than 10 percent of hospital-acquired enterococci infections reported to the CDC were resistant to vancomycin. From the discovery of
> antibiotics to this and the last decade we did little to discover new antib's.
>
> So, what say you ? Does toxicology have a dilemma
> such as this ? The parasitologist might say it was always a loosing battle and we just bought time.
> Pathogens are so far ahead of our science; do you see a way out ?I differ from you in one key aspect of your analysis....I think that exposure to pathogens is the key variable....before human culture was so closely linked (there are few real physical gaps between populations any more, and with modern transportation methods, particularly air travel), disease outbreaks were very limited affairs. If e.g. Ebola had come out of the jungle in the past, a tribe might have simply disappeared, but no one else would have been impacted, if they even came to know of the loss. Today, we live in fear that Ebola might be carried to a populated area via e.g. airplane before the infection has been identified. The result would be an epidemic, if not a pandemic.
Then you add in a new variable that comes solely from the high density of creatures in confined areas, cities with agricultural regions nearby, and you get a whole new environmental niche for viral and bacterial hybridizations.... Consider the influenza virus. There are strains that infect ducks. There are strains that infect pigs. The duck strains don't make the ducks too sick. Ditto for the pigs. But, if the duck and pig viruses exchange genetic material (these little beggars are true, err, sluts), novel influenza viruses emerge....ones which can jump to humans (so-called zoonoses), and we get human epidemics. Where are ducks and pigs and people all crammed together? China. I'm not being racist...it's like an influenza orgy going on. It's no coincidence that most influenza strains have oriental names.
That's just one example. Your vancomycin resistance example is another....transfer of plasmids between non-related species of bacteria. A totally uncontrollable phenomenon. Where do we find all sorts of bacteria and all sorts of sick and vulnerable people....in hospitals. You probably could not design better places to breed antibiotic resistance if you tried.
The real opportunities will come from vaccines, IMHO. The net effect of vaccination is to reduce the pool of people who can become infected. If that number drops below a critical threshold, epidemics cannot occur. We got smallpox (virtually) eradicated, and we didn't have to innoculate everyone to do it. We just innoculated enough of the right people....
The other thing, of course, is to find novel antibiotic compounds. I don't think it's a fools game....it's all we've got. However, merely ensuring adequate hand-washing by hospital staff would substantially reduce the unacceptable rate of hospital-acquired infections (about 1 in 7 patients right now).
As TJ says, there's a lot more going on than we realize, vis a vis immune responses to parasites and chronic infections. For example, there is a Pacific island (Tonga?, I'm not sure), where public sanitation initiatives and treatments for parasites eradicated what had been chronic infestations by various worms....and suddenly, whereas there had been zero incidence of allergies and asthma, the islanders took on typical Western prevalence rates of about 1 in 5 with those disorders....so, artificially introducing parasites to asthma sufferers may effect a cure....we evolved with the flukes and worms, and maybe we don't do well without them.
I can ramble on for days.....
Lar
Posted by stjames on December 8, 2003, at 2:10:51
In reply to Re: Lar...the parasitologist's dilemma, what say you » stjames, posted by Larry Hoover on December 7, 2003, at 19:13:41
> I differ from you in one key aspect of your analysis....I think that exposure to pathogens is the key variable....Nope, we don't. We are 100% here, the science is clear. I was past a page and had to stop !
The cleaner the environment, the sicker we get, generally. There are notable exceptions here, but I think the worst thing you can do in raising kids is to sanitize everything. I heard a study as reported on NPR which blows a hole into the common assumption that kids from the country don't get as many illness because the air is cleaner, ect. Nope, the kids from the counrty are exposed to
a diverse soup of allergins, they tend to have more contact with many species of animals and more contact with the earth and outdoors. A dirty (within some reason) environment allows the immune
system to do what it needs to do. Gather pathogen DNA so next time it can pattern match and do it's thing.This study found that the city kids were overloaded, too few things but far too
high a concentration of what was there.
They then swapped the kids locations
and reproduced the same results. They found
the country kids reverted as did the city kids,
one was more sick and the other less. The pro or
negative effects of environment were short lived
once the environment was changed. You can undo things, even after being in a bad environment.I have the worst allergies, the kind that can impair your life as much as mental illness. I got in with a mad allergy doc, and was on huge amounts
of steroids. I had a adreanal crisis and ended up
in the hospital and met a brilliant endrocronoligist. It took a long time for him to fix the mess I was in; the adreanals did not want to come back on line, ect. I was also seeing a brilliant psychopharacologist and she had to walk on water to keep me stable. I still required steroids to function, Atavan as not kill anyone in a rage roid and AP's at the first sigh of going psychotic.7 years of this and I reached the point that optical nerve damage was going to start soon.
I was loosing bone and there was evidence my body
was not localizing infections as quick as before.
All the danger signs for steriods.The was no choice but to do a geographic. Considering my allergy profile, molds were the worst. I was living in New Orleans and it was killing me. The desert SW was the clear win,
so my company transfered me, in 1995. With the
NPR report in mind, I stopped using bleach and
other strong cleaners in the house, used the HEPA less
and made some other changes. It costs a lot to keep the house at 50% humidity in New Orleans, via
AC but I had to kill the molds as I was starting to have hints or the deadly reactions to them.The geographic worked, the desert made me healthy,
got me off all steriods & I use antihistamines as needed now. I now have run of the mill allergies,
but not all the time. I live in the high desert, most time on the border between the high desert and Alpine biome, ie 7,000 to 8,000 feet.
Gone is the ozone and particulates in the air
that were horrible, plus the high concentrations
of allergins. However, the high desert is far from barren, so there is enough, a better balance
of pathogins and allergins so I stay healthy.
My body fends off infections and can localize them. Since 95, I have only required
2 courses of an antibiotic, instead of every month. I no longer require the big guns, like Augmenten or Biaxin; Bactrum DS is enough and
easy on my system. I met yet another brillant doc in a med trial, he became my primary. he is an DO and allergist with an intrest in environmental med. Just what I needed. He helped me off the steroids and helped me to start regrowing bone.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 8, 2003, at 8:22:32
In reply to Re: Lar...the parasitologist's dilemma, what say y, posted by stjames on December 8, 2003, at 2:10:51
> I met yet another brillant doc in a med trial, he became my primary. he is an DO and allergist with an intrest in environmental med. Just what I needed. He helped me off the steroids and helped me to start regrowing bone.
I'm happy for you, dude. That's great. :-)
I'm a believer in yin and yang, in a philosophical sense as much as the literal. No matter how good we think something is, there is always some bad (and vice versa). Antibiotics, for example, make things different. That is neither good nor bad, but we form impressions about the latter concepts anyway. I refuse to take the pessimist's perspective on this. The world is merely different than it was, but that is what happens to the world....it keeps getting different.
Lar
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