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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 95. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dena on November 15, 2008, at 19:27:59
To better understand the concerns over anti-Semitism, watch this powerpoint (be sure to use the full-screen option, found at the lower right corner of the small screen). I dare you, I dare ALL of you, to watch this: http://tinyurl.com/6nx2g4
Powerfully shocking & haunting images!
I visited the Holocaust museum when I lived in Washington, DC ... I studied the Holocaust in my teens (the horror of it fascinated me -- the sheer unreality of it, and yet it was real)...
I spent some time in East Berlin, when the wall was still up - and I saw the remnants of that repressive regime. And when we lived in Stuttgart Germany, in the early 1980's, my father took the military base's youth group (from the church) to see Dachau - one of the preserved extermination camps in Germany. I went there 3 times -- they've kept is just as it was, after WWII, and it's absolutely devastating. My father would then tell the teenagers about the Milgram Experiment (http://tinyurl.com/6dpovg) on the way home on the bus, so that they'd know that none of us are above such atrocities -- that any of us, given the right (wrong!) set of circumstances, and particularly when propaganda and "allegiance to the state, right or wrong" is promoted, then they, too, could be lured into such brutality.
Man's inhumanity to man is abysmal...! Especially in the name of religion (as Hitler told the Pope: "I'm just acting out what your church has taught for centuries!"). For far too long, Christianity has taught, both overtly and covertly, that Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus (as if that weren't His own plan!), and have persecuted the Jews relentlessly (even as the Jews, due to their own misunderstandings, persecuted the early followers of Jesus). As is written, there are those who will kill others, and believe that they're doing God a favor ... but only God is able to discern the hearts, and thus bring forth true judgment and justice (and His mercy always triumphs over His judgment -- for as it's written, all Israel will be saved -- Israel being the first-fruits for the rest of mankind). God's judgment against *that* generation of Jews has come and gone (in 70AD) ... and mercy triumphed. All have been reconciled to Him, He is now all in all. God is no longer at war with humanity -- and we need to be aligned with that reality!
That very deception (that we humans can act out God's justice) is alive and well among us, in this world -- we didn't purge ourselves of it after WWII ... and when we forget the past, we're doomed to repeat it (i.e., in the Sudan, in Rwanda, in Darfur, etc). It's imperative that we remember, that we do not sweep this under the rug of our collective consciousness ... that we do not deny it, that we do not minimize it. It's critical that we come to see and believe that there's no more "us vs. them" in this world -- it's all "US". It's time to understand one another, to explore our differences, to see ourselves as neighbors -- to love our neighbors, and if we cannot yet do that, then to love our enemies until they become our neighbors and family...!
My own husband and 8 children would've perished in the Holocaust -- had we happened to have been born in Europe a few generations earlier (even though we're all followers of Jesus). I would've likely perished as an accomplice. If we continue to allow even subtle anti-Semitism, or anti-anyone-ism, we're setting the stage for a future Holocaust, that could happen right here in the USA.
Just one thing that needs clarifying in that power-point: it was said that schools in the UK are no longer teaching the Holocaust out of fear of offending Muslims -- that's actually not quite accurate. One school in northern UK did choose to not teach the Holocaust one year, so that it wouldn't incite anti-Semitism from the Muslim students (they likewise didn't teach on the Crusades - yet another atrocity done "in the name of God"). One reporter took this story to an extreme (as reporters are wont to do, for ratings), and it brought about a public outcry. The good news is that the UK schools are committed to teaching on the Holocaust. You may appreciate much of what's said in this "Snopes" article on it: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/holocaust.asp
My strong and adamant opinion is that any form of anti-Semitism, or anti-ANYone-ism, cannot be allowed or tolerated on this forum, whether overtly or subtly. I've watched over the years as Lou has steadfastly taken on anti-Semitism seemingly single-handedly -- only to be met, over and over, with blatant denials of any such intolerance happening. It sounds a whole heck of a lot like, "The Holocaust didn't really happen, so get over it and quit making such a big deal out of this." May I suggest that it's possible that those who have not *experienced* anti-Semitism may in fact be somewhat blind to it, while those who are either Jewish, or are related to those who are Jewish, may be better attuned to it? Perhaps the former should respectfully listen to, and give credence to, the latter...?
I've seen Lou handle these encounters with kindness, patience, and far more graciousness than he's been given. He's asked repeatedly for justice, for a response, for an acknowledgment that he's been heard -- only to be met with ridicule, shunning, patronizing comments, and even disrespectful silence. He's repeated his requests persistently, following the very protocol that has been given him ... protocol that favors some while squelching him, protocol that keeps changing, seemingly targeted personally at him, and which perpetuates the inequities. For heaven's sake -- answer the man, and abide by the very protocol that you claim to uphold...! This entire situation has become petty and childish.
Lou's sole desire is to share a powerful and transformative experience of his -- in the hopes that it may benefit someone else. He has nothing to gain by doing so. He's been shut down ad nauseam, while others are allowed to get away with the very same things he's been accused of. (I understand that some may find his posting style to be frustrating, particularly when he often asks for clarification. But understand where that comes from: Lou is carefully meticulous -- he doesn't want to risk misunderstanding, hurting, or even offending anyone -- and so he asks many questions, to better ascertain where a person is coming from. That is to his credit -- that should be met with grace and understanding.)
This is not about me standing up for a friend, which I'm only too happy to do. This is about a human being standing up for what's right. And you know it. For those of you who dared to watch the power-point presentation linked above, and who can thus better understand Lou's driving passion that we learn from history -- stand with him as well. Speak out. Say what you see. Don't condone the inequities with your silence. Let's never forget what atrocities can be done when people choose to look the other way, and remain silent. One day you may be on the receiving end of ignorant hatred, that began with making allowances for "us vs. them" thinking...!Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers.""We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something.""Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."
"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 16, 2008, at 11:52:55
In reply to Anti-Semitism (Please Read), posted by Dena on November 15, 2008, at 19:27:59
> I've watched over the years as Lou has steadfastly taken on anti-Semitism seemingly single-handedly -- only to be met, over and over, with blatant denials of any such intolerance happening. It sounds a whole heck of a lot like, "The Holocaust didn't really happen, so get over it and quit making such a big deal out of this."
>
> I've seen Lou handle these encounters with kindness, patience, and far more graciousness than he's been given. He's asked repeatedly for justice, for a response, for an acknowledgment that he's been heard -- only to be met with ridicule, shunning, patronizing comments, and even disrespectful silence.
>
> He's been shut down ad nauseam, while others are allowed to get away with the very same things he's been accused of.Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Please don't jump to conclusions about others.
Your passion for justice and desire to support Lou is admirable. But Dr. Bob asks that such passion be expressed within the boundaries of the civility guidelines of this site.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
You might wish to email Dr. Bob with your concerns about older posts. His email is on the bottom of each page, and he is the only one in a position to address them at this point, as I've explained to you in previous posts.
If you believe any more recent posts to be in violation of the civility guidelines, please use the contact administrators function on the bottom of each posting page to contact Administration directly. This is the current site procedure.
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Phillipa on November 16, 2008, at 13:17:32
In reply to Anti-Semitism (Please Read), posted by Dena on November 15, 2008, at 19:27:59
I don't get it as I'm friends with Lou. My neighbors are Jewish dated Jewish men never once did anyone mention religion and lots of babblers are of the Jewish Faith. And I'm of German decent and have been to Dauchau and not it's a horrible thing that happened there. Sophies Choice to Movie was the most horrible movie ever saw. I guess I would be considered Arian in Germany if it were World War 11 but that was before I was born and 62 now. Sorry you feel others are anti-semetic I for one am not. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dena on November 16, 2008, at 14:54:27
In reply to Please be civil » Dena, posted by Deputy Dinah on November 16, 2008, at 11:52:55
> > I've watched over the years as Lou has steadfastly taken on anti-Semitism seemingly single-handedly -- only to be met, over and over, with blatant denials of any such intolerance happening. It sounds a whole heck of a lot like, "The Holocaust didn't really happen, so get over it and quit making such a big deal out of this."
> >
> > I've seen Lou handle these encounters with kindness, patience, and far more graciousness than he's been given. He's asked repeatedly for justice, for a response, for an acknowledgment that he's been heard -- only to be met with ridicule, shunning, patronizing comments, and even disrespectful silence.
> >
> > He's been shut down ad nauseam, while others are allowed to get away with the very same things he's been accused of.
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Please don't jump to conclusions about others.
>
> Your passion for justice and desire to support Lou is admirable. But Dr. Bob asks that such passion be expressed within the boundaries of the civility guidelines of this site.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> You might wish to email Dr. Bob with your concerns about older posts. His email is on the bottom of each page, and he is the only one in a position to address them at this point, as I've explained to you in previous posts.
>
> If you believe any more recent posts to be in violation of the civility guidelines, please use the contact administrators function on the bottom of each posting page to contact Administration directly. This is the current site procedure.
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
>
> Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
>
>
>
Could you explain, please, how my post was less than civil? Of whom did I make accusations? Who could feel put down when no one is mentioned? I made no assumptions -- my comments are based on observations of realities that have occurred over the years.Shalom, Dena
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 16, 2008, at 15:17:54
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Deputy Dinah, posted by Dena on November 16, 2008, at 14:54:27
> Could you explain, please, how my post was less than civil? Of whom did I make accusations? Who could feel put down when no one is mentioned? I made no assumptions -- my comments are based on observations of realities that have occurred over the years.
Even if you do not name any specific posters, you still need to phrase your views of what has happened over the years in such a way as to not lead others, including unnamed others or group others, to feel accused or put down.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Dena on November 16, 2008, at 15:23:43
In reply to Explanation » Dena, posted by Deputy Dinah on November 16, 2008, at 15:17:54
So ... I should have *thanked* others for putting up with anti-Semitic statements and ignoring someone who was trying to rectify that...?
How does one point out an injustice in such a way that would not potentially lead someone to feel put down..?
And, are we not responsible for our own choices...? I can choose how to receive a criticism -- either as something constructive, or I can take it personally (& thus not learn).
Again, how does someone on this forum point out an injustice, for the good of everyone?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 16, 2008, at 15:48:32
In reply to Re: Explanation, posted by Dena on November 16, 2008, at 15:23:43
Pointing out what you perceive to be injustice would be very difficult to do under the civility guidelines of this site. Since pointing out what you believe are injustices committed by other members of this site could lead them to feel accused or put down.
It might be better to address your concerns to Dr. Bob. Emails to Dr. Bob do not need to follow site guidelines, in my experience at least.
Also, you could consult with those who are familiar with civility guidelines prior to posting.
However, as the FAQ state,
Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged, but your freedom of speech is limited here. It can be therapeutic to express yourself, but this isn't necessarily the place.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2008, at 18:18:11
In reply to Anti-Semitism (Please Read), posted by Dena on November 15, 2008, at 19:27:59
The Semitic peoples include the Arab peoples, on whom displaced antisemitism has come to rest.
It is OK to use 'Islamofascism' here, but I'd be very careful about talking about the Christianist or Jewish forms of it.
Posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2008, at 18:35:16
In reply to Re: Anti-Semitism (Please Read), posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2008, at 18:18:11
As I see it the monotheistic (and for all I know some other) religions make exclusive claims, which, when repeated, can be hurtful to some people.
And as that is the nature of our reality there is nothing much we can do about it.But if Lou were to post exclusive claims revealed to him, I feel confident that it would be OK, in spite of the fact that he has been told otherwise.
The content of Lou's revelation is poetic and benign, surely?
That's how I see it.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 18, 2008, at 12:27:33
In reply to Re: Anti-Semitism (Please Read), posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2008, at 18:35:16
Friends,
If you are considering responding here in this thread, or parallel threads, I would like for you to consider the following link's contents.
In the first link, Mr. Hsiung agrees that by him not addressing a post that could , let's say, arrouse anti-Semitic feelings, or have the potential to lead a Jew to feel put down or accused, that there is the potential for some to think that it is OK to post such here. He also states that since that is true, that he should doo more in situations like that. This was in December, 2004 when he posted that. (citation negtrt-13)
Then Mr. Hsiung posts that if something is brought to his attention and he does nothing about it, that he agrees that it means that what is in question that is brought to his attention is not against the rules of the forum here.
He also posts that he takes responsibility for what he posts, though. (citation negtrt 12)
Now I ask for that these statementsd by Mr. Hsiung be also incorporated in making your own determination about the issues involved here and I think that if you do so, that you could post a more informed response.
Lou
citation negtrt 13
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/424336.html
citation negtrt 12
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/423771.html
Posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on November 18, 2008, at 20:42:50
In reply to Anti-Semitism (Please Read), posted by Dena on November 15, 2008, at 19:27:59
I will say this much. A lot of the reason why better strides have not been made regarding treating severe mental illness has to do with the fact psychiatry was sidetracked for fifty years with Freudian psychobabble. jews jumped all over the Freud bandwagon and many in the mental health field are jewish. Many jews are strong believers in the environment versus genetics and biology when it comes to the subject of severe mental illness and this stems from the fact that jews tend to be leftist (thats a hard fact BTW), tend to vote Democrat, are more liberal than most other folks and like I said, many are STRONG believers in environment versus genes.
Its my belief that had psychiatry taken a more Neurology approach and not gotten sidetracked with what the Germans called "jewish science" AKA Freudian crappola, that some of us might be living better lives today thru better brain science.
Not all jews are *ssh*l*s, but too many of them are. I suspect its because of the way the world has treated them over the centuries. You might be an *ssh*l* too if you had been persecuted the way theyve been persecuted. Still, being persecuted religiously and politically does not give them the right for them to cop the bad attitude so many of them have.
And again, their overriding emphasis on the environment and negative early childhood experiences (Freud) doesnt help the rest of us with serious psychiatric problems.
LostBoyinNC
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 18, 2008, at 20:57:45
In reply to Re: jews and psychiatry, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on November 18, 2008, at 20:42:50
> Not all jews are *ssh*l*s, but too many of them are.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
You've been blocked before for violation of site guidelines, and per my calculations, this block will be for the maximum of one year.
If this is incorrect, Dr. Bob will correct it.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Sigismund on November 18, 2008, at 22:44:51
In reply to Re: jews and psychiatry, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on November 18, 2008, at 20:42:50
For all its drawbacks and therapeutic limitations, psychoanalysis was one of the great achievements of the C20.
Posted by Dena on November 19, 2008, at 0:24:56
In reply to Blocked for a year » LostBoyinNCBecksDark, posted by Deputy Dinah on November 18, 2008, at 20:57:45
Thank you, Dinah, for that.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by BayLeaf on November 19, 2008, at 6:16:28
In reply to Blocked for a year » LostBoyinNCBecksDark, posted by Deputy Dinah on November 18, 2008, at 20:57:45
Thank you Dinah!
Posted by yxibow on November 19, 2008, at 8:27:10
In reply to My Vote for Best Block of 2008 » Deputy Dinah, posted by BayLeaf on November 19, 2008, at 6:16:28
Shalom aleichem.
I've never heard of so much anti-semitism.
Does one know why there is a brain-trust that happens to be partially Jewish in this country?
Because the last people, the generation of my ancestor line, to get out of Europe were not just peddlers and the like, they were scientists fleeing Europe and persecution.
I'm happy to have had an inventor for a Grandfather I never got to see because of heart conditions who would be proud of me.
New waves of immigration came from Russia and Iran fleeing after the Shah was overthrown.These aren't the only reasons but they are plenty of them for those who didn't make aliyah (become Jewish citizens of the state of Israel) and landed on our hopefully welcome shores. It wasn't a welcome time for some.
Anyway I digress, there is intelligence among all faiths in this country, doctors, etc, I'm just saying if one thinks there is a disproportional amount in one area, maybe there is a demographic reason.I encourage anyone to watch the Jewish Americans if they are interested in general faith and more importantly culture movies. Very well done PBS series.
Shalom.
-- Jay
Posted by Phillipa on November 19, 2008, at 12:25:36
In reply to Re: My Vote for Best Block of 2008 » BayLeaf, posted by yxibow on November 19, 2008, at 8:27:10
Didn't know that about Freud as he lived in Vienna Austria was there once and wanted to visit his home. Digressing her. Shalom from me too Love Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on November 19, 2008, at 15:18:18
In reply to Re: My Vote for Best Block of 2008 » BayLeaf, posted by yxibow on November 19, 2008, at 8:27:10
That was awful and upsetting.
Thank you, Dinah.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 19, 2008, at 16:01:24
In reply to Re: My Vote for Best Block of 2008 » BayLeaf, posted by yxibow on November 19, 2008, at 8:27:10
Friends,
If you are considering posting in this thread or a parallel thread, I am requesting that you click on the offered link here that brings up a thread for your examination.
I think that if you do, that there could be more understanding of the issues involved here which are comming out in this thread that may have been unbeknownst to some.
I would like for those interested in my perspective to email me if they like after reading the thread in question via this link.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/429282.html
Posted by obsidian on November 19, 2008, at 16:27:51
In reply to Re: jews and psychiatry, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on November 18, 2008, at 20:42:50
wow...geez man
you really think that?As most everyone knows Freud was a neurologist, and I don't think that his departure to psychoanalysis made him leave it all behind
I think he really did try to understand the ways that things can manifest themselves physically as well as mentallyA lot of what is written about these days regarding neuroscience is not necessarily in contrast to freudian theories
"The Right Brain and the Unconscious"
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 19, 2008, at 16:59:13
In reply to Lou's response to aspects-phawstrheht, posted by Lou Pilder on November 19, 2008, at 16:01:24
Friends,
If you are considering responding here, I am requesting that you examine the thread that the following post brings up. If you could, I think that there could be a better understanding of the issues involved here.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041012/msgs/402039.html
and also;
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041012/msgs/405068.html
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on November 19, 2008, at 17:22:37
In reply to Lou's response to aspects-hudou, posted by Lou Pilder on November 19, 2008, at 16:59:13
a friendly caution for all....
While support and understanding of deputy actions is always *much* appreciated, please keep in mind that the guidelines apply to everyone, including blocked posters.
Posts which could be interpreted as 'celebrating' a block, or negatively characterizing what the blocked poster wrote, are likely to be in violation of the civility guidelines.
Any discussions of Freud or other non-administrative topics, should be held on the appropriate board(s).
Thanks in advance for helping keep Babble civil and [somewhat!?] organized...
-- 10der
Posted by BayLeaf on November 19, 2008, at 19:31:52
In reply to Please remember guidelines/keep it administrative, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on November 19, 2008, at 17:22:37
It is certainly worth the possibility of a block to do the right thing.
What we saw was vile hate speech - which should never be tolerated. I can't help but express gratitude that it was quickly stopped.
We complain a lot here. It seems to me that we should express thanks when appropriate as well. :-)
Bay
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 19, 2008, at 20:43:40
In reply to Re: Please remember guidelines/keep it administrative » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by BayLeaf on November 19, 2008, at 19:31:52
> It is certainly worth the possibility of a block to do the right thing.
>
> What we saw was vile hate speech - which should never be tolerated. I can't help but express gratitude that it was quickly stopped.
>
> We complain a lot here. It seems to me that we should express thanks when appropriate as well. :-)
>
> BayBay,
You wrote,[...do the right thing...hate speech..never be tolerated...]
The aspect of tolerating generally means to allow without sanction.
Hate speech is generally directed at groups of people. This could include racism which could include anti-Semitism.
I would like for interested members here to examine the thread that the following link brings up and email me if you like concerning the Law of Moses and how the Jews worship their God concerning that, and if you are going to post in this thread to consider the aspects in the thread that the post in the link brings up.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070702/msgs/776479.html
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on November 19, 2008, at 21:53:00
In reply to Re: Please remember guidelines/keep it administrative » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by BayLeaf on November 19, 2008, at 19:31:52
> It is certainly worth the possibility of a block to do the right thing.
Yes, everyone makes their choices, as each new situation dictates and according to their own conscience. I understand that.
> What we saw was vile hate speech
However, as Dr. Bob asks that the civility rules be applied to *all* posters, and the FAQ remind us "free speech is limited here," I'm going to ask you not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused and put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternate ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin, and should of course, be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
> We complain a lot here. It seems to me that we should express thanks when appropriate as well. :-)
Thank you, BayLeaf.
--10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
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